Comparing the 2005 and 2009 Teams

[Riddickulous]

Well, this year's Irish team is drawing many, many comparisons with the 2005 squad who went 9-3 and took a trip to the Fiesta Bowl. I thought we'd compare the two teams. This should be fun.

2005 2009
QB - Brady Quinn QB - Jimmy Clausen
TB - Darius Walker TB - Armando Allen
FB - Asaph Schwapp FB - James Aldridge
WR - Jeff Samardzija WR - Golden Tate
WR - Maurice Stovall WR - Michael Floyd
TE - Anthony Fasano TE - Kyle Rudolph
LT - Ryan Harris LT - Paul Duncan
LG - Dan Santucchi LG - Eric Olsen
C - Bob Morton C - Dan Wenger
RG - Dan Stevenson RG - Chris Stewart
RT - Mark LeVoir RT - Sam Young
LE - Victor Abiamiri LE - Kapron Lewis-Moore
RE - Chris Frome RE - Kerry Neal
DT - Trevor Laws DT - Ethan Johnson
DT - Derrek Landri DT - Ian Williams
MLB - Corey Mays MLB - Manti Te'o
OLB - Brandon Hoyte OLB - Toryan Smith
OLB - Maurice Crum OLB - Brian Smith
CB - Ambrose Wooden CB - Robert Blanton
CB - Mike Richardson CB - Darrin Walls
FS - Chinedum Ndukwe FS - Harrison Smith
SS - Tom Zbikowski SS - Kyle McCarthy
K - D.J Fitzpatrick K - Brandon Walker
P - Geoff Price P - Eric Maust
KR - David Grimes, D.J Hord KR - Golden Tate, Armando Allen
PR - Tom Zbikowski PR - Golden Tate
Schedule
Coaching Staff
Team Camaraderie

Now that we've compared the two depth charts, it's time to decide which players are better at each position.

QB - Jimmy Clausen (Sure, Brady Quinn is a legend, but Clausen is better. Clausen has the arm strength for both the deep ball and a quick, hard throw over the middle, something Quinn didn't have. Clausen has the accuracy, making several throws in the Hawaii Bowl alone that Quinn never could've made. Clausen has the best receiving duo in the country, an offensive line with over a hundred combined starts, and a more confident stepping stone into this season than Quinn had going into the 2005 season.)
TB - Armando Allen (Darius Walker was good, but Armando Allen is faster and better. Allen has none of Walker's "patience", which was Walker pumping his feet while he waited for an often nonexistent hole to open up. Allen is just better.)
FB - James Aldridge (No explanation needed.)
WR - Golden Tate (Better than Samardzija? I think so. Golden has hands that are just as good as Samardzija's, he's faster, and he's a bigger deep threat.)
WR - Michael Floyd (Better than Stovall? I think so. Stovall had inconsistent hands, Floyd doesn't have that problem. Plus, Stovall was a senior, Floyd is a sophomore.)
TE - Anthony Fasano (Rudolph isn't quite at Fasano's level. Rudolph has had some questionable hands problems that Fasano didn't have.)
LT - Ryan Harris
LG - Dan Santucchi
C - Bob Morton
RG - Dan Stevenson
RT - Mark LeVoir
LE - Victor Abiamiri
RE - Kerry Neal
DT - Trevor Laws
DT - Derrek Landri
MLB - Corey Mays
OLB - Brian Smith
OLB - Brandon Hoyte
CB - Robert Blanton
CB - Darrin Walls
FS - Harrison Smith
SS - Tom Zbikowski
K - Brandon Walker
P - Geoff Price
KR - Golden Tate, Armando Allen
PR - Tom Zbikowski
Schedule - 2009
Coaching Staff - 2009
Team Camaraderie - 2009

In my opinion, this 2009 team is better than the 2005 team, especially on offense. Things are looking up.

Well, give your own opinions, and we can discuss.

 

[notredomer23]

I would take the right side of our line this year over 05.

While I agree Clausen will be the better QB, he isnt at the moment and be prepared to be flamed by many. lol

i would also taken ethan Johnson anyday over Victor A.

We are gonna be better than 05 though because of schedule, and we will have a defense to go along with our offense

 

[PADOMERNUT]

Darius Walker was so underrated in my opinion. Some of the plays he made we under-appreciated. He was excellent at picking up the blitz. If he had breakaway speed he would be an everyday NFL back. Do you remember him against LSU in the Sugar Bowl? He was unreal.

 

[notredomer23]

Darius Walker was so underrated in my opinion. Some of the plays he made we under-appreciated. He was excellent at picking up the blitz. If he had breakaway speed he would be an everyday NFL back. Do you remember him against LSU in the Sugar Bowl? He was unreal.

Some people loved DWalk. Some people werent fans. I was not a fan. I like explosive backs. However, I do agree, in the Sugar Bowl he was unreal

 

[BGIF]

Here's your lineups with my picks in bold:

2005 2009
QB - Brady Quinn QB - Jimmy Clausen
TB - Darius Walker TB - Armando Allen
FB - Asaph Schwapp FB - James Aldridge
WR - Jeff Samardzija WR - Golden Tate = PUSH
WR - Maurice Stovall WR - Michael Floyd = PUSH
TE - Anthony Fasano TE - Kyle Rudolph
LT - Ryan Harris LT - Paul Duncan
LG - Dan Santucchi LG - Eric Olsen
C - Bob Morton C - Dan Wenger
RG - Dan Stevenson RG - Chris Stewart
RT - Mark LeVoir RT - Sam Young
LE - Victor Abiamiri LE - Kapron Lewis-Moore
RE - Chris Frome RE - Kerry Neal
DT - Trevor Laws DT - Ethan Johnson = PUSH
DT - Derrek Landri DT - Ian Williams
MLB - Corey Mays MLB - Manti Te'o
OLB - Brandon Hoyte OLB - Toryan Smith
OLB - Maurice Crum OLB - Brian Smith
CB - Ambrose Wooden CB - Robert Blanton
CB - Mike Richardson CB - Darrin Walls
FS - Chinedum Ndukwe FS - Harrison Smith = PUSH
SS - Tom Zbikowski SS - Kyle McCarthy
K - D.J Fitzpatrick K - Brandon Walker = PUSH
P - Geoff Price P - Eric Maust = PUSH
KR - David Grimes, D.J Hord KR - Golden Tate, Armando Allen
PR - Tom Zbikowski PR - Golden Tate
Schedule '09
Coaching Staff '09
Team Camaraderie '05

Comments:

Offense:
QB - Clausen may well have the better arm but he threw 17 picks last year and much of the double digit collapses rest with his arm and/or judgement.
TB - Allen has speed and Walker the vision. While Walker had the patience to "find" the seam Allen has shown a propensity for a TFL unless he has a truck size hole to run through. Walker MADE it happen. Rushing, blocking, receiving.
FB - Aldridge is a zero at FB. I take that as a positive. He should provide threat to carry the ball, be able to make 3rd and 1, and be a pass catching threat. Hopefully he can learn to block at least chip block. And more importantly pick up the first defender in the way.
WR - Tate and Floyd have more potential. I'll take the two upperclassmen as this is a "potential" debate.
TE - Fasano hands down. Again Rudolph has potential but in '08 he crippled the OLine. In Weis's scheme TE is essential blocker. And since this is a team analyis, '05 gets a hugh Advantage at TE. Does '09 ND have a #2 or #3 TE? Ragone's knees untested (as is he) and Burger for all Charlie's praise was a DE at - Dayton!
OLine - I'll take the '05 boys across the board. Harris is still head and shoulders above any ND OL in this time period. Santucci, Stevenson, and LeVoir were more dependable than current crop. Young is most overrated OL on ND followed by Wenger. Wenger's man made 12 or 15 tackles in the Syr or BC game. ND didn't even run his position that number of times. '05 team displayed much better chemistry. They played as an OLine compared to the '08 guys who looked like they were playing a pick up basketball game and never did learn who there man was. "Do you have the guy in blue or am I supposed to? Damn somebody better pick him up?"

Defense
Nice job comparing Victor to Johnson although they're aligned at different positions.

DE Victor. KLM has seen the field yet. Let's be real here.
DE I take Neal over Frome. Is Neal gonna start?
DT Laws and Landri but I'll give Johnson a push
LB Te'o may rival Crable, Golic, and Stonebreaker - in time. Right now he's a Rivals wonder. Mays made plays. Until Te'o does he's an athletic freshman who hasn't played. Hoyte clearly over parttimer Toryan. Brian Smith anywhere over Crum.
CB Blanton appears to be starting with 170 minutes of PT over McNeil's 286.
FS Duke made good plays and bad plays. Harrison hasn't had to defend against USC in the end zone has he. Another "potential" guy not experienced
SS Zibby without a second thought. He sparkled in '05. He would have been a much better player under Brown or Tenuta then trying to play SS and LB at the same time under the other guy.
K & P Push. Walker was 1 for 7 then dependable. He was the only offense in 4 OTs for ND against PIT.
KR Tate and Allen if for Hawaii alone one with the ball the other without.
PR Zib - no contest. He had people on their feet as a freshman.

Schedule: '09 One ranked team versus 4, no UTN,
Coaches: Tenuta and Brown over Minter. Hart over Oliver. Verducci over Latina. Vass over Powlus, on experience. I was disappointed in Haywood all around. Not sure about Alford yet.
Comaraderie: '05 hands down. The players were coming from the Dark Ages. Weis was the light at the end of the Tunnel. After '07 and '08, the '09 players aren't sure if Weis was the Light or there's just another express train headed their way.

 

[NDOM]

2005 team is better in my opinion.

 

[TDHeysus]

Some people loved DWalk. Some people werent fans. I was not a fan. I like explosive backs. However, I do agree, in the Sugar Bowl he was unreal

I was not a big fan of Darius Walker - he was the best we had during the time, so it was what it was.....of course, I had backs like Bettis, Watters, and Brooks on the brain, and he was no where close to those guys.

But he's Irish, and I still got love for him...

 

[jason_h537]

Here's your lineups with my picks in bold:

2005 2009
QB - Brady Quinn QB - Jimmy Clausen
TB - Darius Walker TB - Armando Allen
FB - Asaph Schwapp FB - James Aldridge
WR - Jeff Samardzija WR - Golden Tate = PUSH
WR - Maurice Stovall WR - Michael Floyd = PUSH
TE - Anthony Fasano TE - Kyle Rudolph
LT - Ryan Harris LT - Paul Duncan
LG - Dan Santucchi LG - Eric Olsen
C - Bob Morton C - Dan Wenger
RG - Dan Stevenson RG - Chris Stewart
RT - Mark LeVoir RT - Sam Young
LE - Victor Abiamiri LE - Kapron Lewis-Moore
RE - Chris Frome RE - Kerry Neal
DT - Trevor Laws DT - Ethan Johnson = PUSH
DT - Derrek Landri DT - Ian Williams
MLB - Corey Mays MLB - Manti Te'o
OLB - Brandon Hoyte OLB - Toryan Smith
OLB - Maurice Crum OLB - Brian Smith
CB - Ambrose Wooden CB - Robert Blanton
CB - Mike Richardson CB - Darrin Walls
FS - Chinedum Ndukwe FS - Harrison Smith = PUSH
SS - Tom Zbikowski SS - Kyle McCarthy
K - D.J Fitzpatrick K - Brandon Walker = PUSH
P - Geoff Price P - Eric Maust = PUSH
KR - David Grimes, D.J Hord KR - Golden Tate, Armando Allen
PR - Tom Zbikowski PR - Golden Tate
Schedule '09
Coaching Staff '09
Team Camaraderie '05

Agree except if i were going based on what they have done upto the same points in there career i would have to go with Clausen, Floyd, Tate, Rudolph, and Hayseed

 

[scintrigue]

I love the optimisim! But there are a lot of NFL players on the 05 team. I hope that the 09 team will make it as well!

But I do think Floyd is gonna be the best receiver in CB one day. Tate may not make the NFL. Rudolph is probably the best TE in the nation right now.

 

[goldandblue]

more food for thought.

more food for thought.

I compared the star ratings for the players of both the 2005 team and the 2009 team just to see for myself so I thought I would let you guys take a look at it. One problem I had were that several of the offensive lineman from the 2005 team were freshman before 2002 which is when Rivals and Scout starting keeping up with all the info. I did the best I could with what I had.

2005 Squad

Offense
05 QB - Brady Quinn - 4
05 TB - Darius Walker - 3
05 FB - Asaph Schwapp - 2
05 WR - Jeff Samardzija - 3
05 WR - Maurice Stovall - 4
05 TE - Anthony Fasano - 4
05 LT - Ryan Harris
05 LG - Dan Santucchi - 3
05 C - Bob Morton
05 RG - Dan Stevenson
05 RT - Mark LeVoir

Defense
05 LE - Victor Abiamiri - 5
05 RE - Chris Frome - 4
05 DT - Trevor Laws - 4
05 DT - Derrek Landri - 4
05 MLB - Corey Mays
05 OLB - Brandon Hoyte
05 OLB - Maurice Crum - 3
05 CB - Ambrose Wooden - 4
05 CB - Mike Richardson - 2
05 FS - Chinedum Ndukwe - 3
05 SS - Tom Zbikowski - 4

avg star rating for those available - 3.5
avg star rating for defense - 3.6
avg star rating for Offense - 3.2

2009 squad

Offense
09 QB - Jimmy Clausen - 5
09 TB - Armando Allen - 4
09 FB - James Aldridge - 5
09 WR - Golden Tate - 4
09 WR - Michael Floyd - 5
09 TE - Kyle Rudolph - 5
09 LT - Paul Duncan - 3
09 LG - Eric Olsen - 4
09 C - Dan Wenger - 4
09 RG - Chris Stewart - 4
09 RT - Sam Young - 5

Defense
09 LE - Kapron Lewis-Moore - 4
09 RE - Kerry Neal - 4
09 DT - Ethan Johnson - 4
09 DT - Ian Williams - 3
09 MLB - Manti Te'o - 5
09 OLB - Toryan Smith - 3
09 OLB - Brian Smith - 4
09 CB - Robert Blanton - 4
09 CB - Darrin Walls - 4
09 FS - Harrison Smith - 4
09 SS - Kyle McCarthy - 3

avg star rating 4.09
avg star rating for offense - 4.3
avg star rating for defense - 3.8

 

[notredomer23]

We cant really say which is better until the season has atleast started

 

[fightinirish68]

u take ethan johnson over victor???????????? victor beat justin tucks sack records.. i mean i dont know if that means anything to u but pretty impressive by my standards

 

[Master Guns]

I think the 05 team was closest we've come in a long time to have a squad capable to competing for a NC if everything lined up for them. The 09 squad has me a little more excited about the upcoming season than the 05 squad did at the start of their 9-3 season.

 

[GO IRISH!!!]

I was not a big fan of Darius Walker - he was the best we had during the time, so it was what it was.....of course, I had backs like Bettis, Watters, and Brooks on the brain, and he was no where close to those guys.

But he's Irish, and I still got love for him...

You are right - Bettis, Watters, Brooks...ahhh those were the days.

But DWalk only missed three consecutive 1,000 yard seasons with his freshman year where I think he only had 900 and change. Not too shabby. None of the current backs have gone anywhere near 1,000 yards in a season...yet. I am keeping my fingers crossed for this season that we will see our first 1,000 yard rusher since Darius.

 

[Riddickulous]

I think the 05 team was closest we've come in a long time to have a squad capable to competing for a NC if everything lined up for them. The 09 squad has me a little more excited about the upcoming season than the 05 squad did at the start of their 9-3 season.

If we had caught the right breaks against Michigan State and USC, we would've run the table.

 

[jason_h537]

2009 team is has more talent and depth than 2005 but the 05v team had great leadership and knew how to win.

 

[BGIF]

2009 team is has more talent and depth than 2005 but the 05v team had great leadership and knew how to win.

What great leadership did they exhibit going INTO the '05 season that the current team going into '09, does not?


How did the '05 Team know how to win going into the '05 season?

ND was 6-6 under Willingham and Baer in '04 and 5-7 under Willingham in '03, Quinn's freshman year. In '04 ND blew the opener against BYU, were embarrassed by PU in midseason, then lost 4 of the last 5.

A point could be made that the '09 team learned how to win in Hawaii closing the season on a high note. Otherwise both the '04 and '08 teams closed the regular seasons on a sour note displaying little leadership or knowledge of winning in either year.

 

[TDHeysus]

this '09 (Clausen) team has had 1 coach, 1 system, 1 offense to perfect...stability at least for 4 years(which includes the sam young class, to the te'o class). the '05 (Quinn) was a team that had more to deal with from the time they committed, till the start of that '05 year. Those players/team was basically a floundering-fish, no identity, trying to 'recapture' the old ND mystique. The '05 team was defintely an over-achieving class (they had alot of help from defensive and special teams TD's, timely turnovers, etc. BQ's spectacular jr-sr yrs). I look at this '09 team as being stripped down to it minimal components and built from the ground up ('07 till now). I think the '09 team has an advantage over the '05 team because of the stability, players recruited to fit the offense, and this team has alot of 'starts' under their belts as a unit. I am expecting more from this '09 team then I did from the '05 team.

As far as leadership, I'm not sure what player(s) have assumed this role. Clausen? Tate? (this is where Sam Young needs to have stepped up), on defense Brian Smith? I really believe Te'o will fill this role nicely at some time, is it too early for that?

 

[BGIF]

this '09 (Clausen) team has had 1 coach, 1 system, 1 offense to perfect...stability at least for 4 years(which includes the sam young class, to the te'o class). the '05 (Quinn) was a team that had more to deal with from the time they committed, till the start of that '05 year. Those players/team was basically a floundering-fish, no identity, trying to 'recapture' the old ND mystique. The '05 team was defintely an over-achieving class (they had alot of help from defensive and special teams TD's, timely turnovers, etc. BQ's spectacular jr-sr yrs). I look at this '09 team as being stripped down to it minimal components and built from the ground up ('07 till now). I think the '09 team has an advantage over the '05 team because of the stability, players recruited to fit the offense, and this team has alot of 'starts' under their belts as a unit. I am expecting more from this '09 team then I did from the '05 team.

The '09 class has had 1 Offensive system (if we don't count the wasted summer of '07 installing the Demetrius Spread) and if we don't count adding bulk to the linemen one year and burning it off another to instill speed (or was it the other way around). On Defense it's seen Minter's Read and React, Brown's 3-4, and now Tenuta's 4-3 Blitz. By the way continuitywise we just changed coaches on both side of the trench. We ran the ball with Quinn and Walker, we then progressed to 58 sacks and lots of TFLs. We've gone from a vertical offene to a horizontal (no sack jokes) offense back to vertical. From Weis as OC to Haywood as OC to Weis as OC. We went from "timely turnovers" in '05 to untimely turnovers in the second half of games with double digit leads.

Was this team "stripped down to it minimal components and built from the ground up ('07 till now)" Think about that. It allow allows for an influx of new players in Crist's class (following '07 season) and Te'o class which hasn't started their first practice in uniform yet. As for "players recruited to fit the offense" tell me about the success at recruiting RBs and OLs. That '05 OLine early in this thread was head and shoulder above the guys lining up now. Let me know if you'd like me to enumerate the recruiting whiffs at RB and OL. Then we can work our way over to the DL recruiting. ND's recruited well at TE unforunately they don't seem to last.

As far as leadership, I'm not sure what player(s) have assumed this role. Clausen? Tate? (this is where Sam Young needs to have stepped up), on defense Brian Smith? I really believe Te'o will fill this role nicely at some time, is it too early for that?

I haven't seen a leader on Offense. Young went to Weis before last season and asked "what can I do?" How about lead by example? How about playing to your potential?

I think Brian Smith does it. And I think it is too early to expect it from Te'o we've put enough on his shoulders already. Ross Browner was a freshman leader so it could happen.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

... I look at this '09 team as being stripped down to it minimal components and built from the ground up ('07 till now)...

Nice.

 

[WabashFalcon]

In total honesty... I don't care which team was better. All I want to do is win.

 

[jason_h537]

What great leadership did they exhibit going INTO the '05 season that the current team going into '09, does not?


How did the '05 Team know how to win going into the '05 season?

Quinn had always shown good leadership skills that has yet to be seen in Clausen and i'm talking about the 05 team in retrospect.

 

[BGIF]

Quinn had always shown good leadership skills that has yet to be seen in Clausen and i'm talking about the 05 team in retrospect.

So Quinn is it? "the 05v team had great leadership"

 

[Riddickulous]

The '05 team definitely overachieved. The biggest example is the Michigan game. We caught a lot of breaks. First of all, Brady Quinn's second touchdown pass was right in the hands of a defender, and would've been in the hands of another if Jeff Samardzija wasn't so good. Then, Chad Henne threw a pick just when Michigan was in scoring range, and then fumbled on the goal line with mere minutes to go in the game. They also had the advantage of Charlie's offensive scheme that year, which isn't a common offense and baffled a lot of defensive coordinators.

Now, teams have figured out how to stop that offensive attack. Drop back the safeties, double team the big target, and blitz.

 

[BGIF]

...
Now, teams have figured out how to stop that offensive attack. Drop back the safeties, double team the big target, and blitz.

Which leaves a TE wide open as he slips his block (that he doesn't throw very well anyway) and is open for 8 - 10 yards.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Which leaves a TE wide open as he slips his block (that he doesn't throw very well anyway) and is open for 8 - 10 yards.

You beat me to it BGIF. That's what killed me about last year's offense. We figured out that no one could stop Tate and Floyd, esp on the fade and go routes, so we exposed that. Then teams started doubling those 2 over the top with safety help, thus leaving the slot receiver and the TE in the seams wide open, but we never took advantage of it! Then all of a sudden in the Hawaii game we did just that, and the defense had to adjust to us and the offense ended up breaking several records.

Now, was it the offense coordinator not adjusting? Was it JC not being able to look off anybody? Was it Kamara dropping passes and generally sucking, and the offense not using Grimes enough in the slot? Was it Rudolph having to stay in and help protect (or attempt to protect) JC? Probably a little bit of everything. But this offense should be dynamic this year with the weapons it can throw at people. There simply are no excuses...

 

[NDsuperfan09]

I think Weis was reluctant to use Rudolph because he was a true freshman last year. The spring game showed me that Weis is trying to make Kyle a big part of the offense this year. When we have had good production at the TE spot (05-06) is when we have won games. Outside of improving the running game/protection getting more use out of Rudolph is the biggest key to our offense exploding this year.

 

[jason_h537]

Well its a good thing Kyle Rudolph is a Bad MF

 

[TDHeysus]

Quinn had always shown good leadership skills that has yet to be seen in Clausen and i'm talking about the 05 team in retrospect.

Quinn's leadership was invaluable on those teams...in the weight room, on the field, walking-out-of-the-grasps-of-defenders-to-avoid-sacks, making plays down field...

I agree with you about Clausen, from what I have seen, he doesnt appear to be that 'leader of men' (no ghey stuff) type of person. at least he hasnt shown it yet(i will admit, its very hard for me to know this for sure, I only know what I see on TV, and read online); with out being derogatory, I dont think he has shown the maturity to assume that role. maybe that has changed...Not everyone is a leader, and I'm not saying that JC needs to be the leader, but a QB is sometimes the 'default leader' when no other person assumes that role.

 

[Riddickulous]

Brady Quinn was a leader. He was the star, the center of attention, the heart of the team. Without Quinn, those teams would've been mediocre. Everything revolved around him. When you needed guidance, when you needed someone to assure you that were going to win, all you had to do was look at Brady Quinn. Quinn was everywhere, leading. During the Michigan State game in 2005, down 38-24, Quinn threw a touchdown pass to Maurice Stovall. The first thing he did following that touchdown was go straight to the sideline to help pump up the defense and encourage them to make the big stop so the Irish could get that last opportunity to tie the game. THAT was leadership.

If Clausen's going to step up and become the true leader of this offense (which he must, because I don't see anybody else doing so), he'll need to show those traits Brady Quinn displayed: courage, confidence. He'll need to be all over the field, encouraging his teammates to succeed.