Change we can believe in

[ACamp1900]

I can't argue that. He lost any support from me when he began to ignore the real problem and focus on Iraq though.

When it comes to Iraq... me too... but Clintons Roll Back Al Qaeda was laughable at best

 

[FrankMA]

Every election cycle I hear they are swinging the election, yet it's been shown that more NEGATIVE press came out on Obama rather than Hillary or McCain.

You are joking, right?

Media's Presidential Bias and Decline - ABC News
How does media bias affect Presidential election | Presidential Race Blog

 

[ACamp1900]

Again, I said McCain's campaign was horrid, we agree there but how does McCain's stance on anything or Bushs policies on anything excuse much of the National Media from backing Obama over........ Hilary Clinton!?!

and agin, no matter what Bush, Clinton, McCain or whoever else did or did not do right... the National Media, for the most part, got their way


Wash Post concedes bias for Obama - Washington Times

NBC's Lee Cowan: Covering Barack Obama Makes My Knees Quake | NewsBusters.org

Boycott The New York Times - Stop the bias and journalistic abuses

Study: ABC, NBC, CBS strongly support Obama

O'Reilly: NBC Openly Supports Obama

Obama and MSNBC Media Bias: Coverage Positive towards Democrats, Negative towards Republicans

Big Head DC » More Evidence of MSNBC’s Pro-Obama Bias?

Former MSNBC Host Tucker Carlson: 'The Press Love Obama'

and the reason you hear the same thing every year is because where there is smoke there are a group of aging hippie running much of the national media that still want to get back at daddy for being successful or killing kennedy, it ain't anything new

CBS Correspondent Admits it -- They're Biased

 

[ACamp1900]

and despite being someone with numerous degrees I would say the "educated elite" of this country is part of the problem...

so disconnected from reality does 200k plus make a person...

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

When it comes to Iraq... me too... but Clintons Roll Back Al Qaeda was laughable at best

A joke? How so? Clinton made it legal to land troops in foreign lands to attack terrorists. Clinton is the one that had missiles put on Predator drones. Clinton was the one that fired 60 Tomahawks into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. Clinton proposed ratching up the action...and was going to do it with the hand-over to Gore.

Bush's first meeting was not scheduled until September 2001. Clinton's team identified Bin Laden as the #1 enemy of America. And Bush did nothing until after 9/11.

So how was it a joke?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

and despite being someone with numerous degrees I would say the "educated elite" of this country is part of the problem...

so disconnected from reality does 200k plus make a person...

Why are they part of the problem? They are successful right? The ones who have done best. The ones the GOP try to protect since they create jobs. Enterepeneurs, etc.

Maybe Obama should raise taxes up to 70% on those people to make sure they can't be more of a problem?

The Educated Elite created this country, are the successful business people, and keep the very fabric of the country alive and vibrant.

When we attack the successful, we get what we ask for...

 

[ACamp1900]

A joke? How so? Clinton made it legal to land troops in foreign lands to attack terrorists. Clinton is the one that had missiles put on Predator drones. Clinton was the one that fired 60 Tomahawks into Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. Clinton proposed ratching up the action...and was going to do it with the hand-over to Gore.

Bush's first meeting was not scheduled until September 2001. Clinton's team identified Bin Laden as the #1 enemy of America. And Bush did nothing until after 9/11.

So how was it a joke?

after disarming the nation's military and letting Bin Laden go numerous times and putting on a puppet show in response to the Cole... My cat just let a big fat steamer that has done more for national security

 

[ACamp1900]

Why are they part of the problem? They are successful right? The ones who have done best. The ones the GOP try to protect since they create jobs. Enterepeneurs, etc.

Maybe Obama should raise taxes up to 70% on those people to make sure they can't be more of a problem?

The Educated Elite created this country, are the successful business people, and keep the very fabric of the country alive and vibrant.

When we attack the successful, we get what we ask for...

this from the guy who points the finger at the right over the use of the term "eltist"... and I'm not attacking so much as pointing out the obvious gap that now exists in this country between the haves and have nots from a political policy standpoint...

and the disconnection to what the core issues are with the middle class are certainly a problem... espec. since it is those people that eventually runs for office in most cases... for instance, education is not broken, the home life of our students, and the society around them is broken... well fare in its current state is simply a medium for the low lifes of this country to defruad hard working tax payers more often than not...

but the solutions to both are to strengthen requirements for teachers and close down schools that "underperform", and to think of the dignity of those on fed and state aide... they both sound good but neither address the issue... THAT is a problem, on both sides, and at it's core lie the failure to connect to the reality of a given situation because at a certain point you just don't see it anymore. So yeah there is a problem here, maybe stating those in that bracket are a problem was the wrong choice of verbage but the point remains the same...

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I can't argue that. He lost any support from me when he began to ignore the real problem and focus on Iraq though.

I can argue with that.

Patriot Act.

Holy caca - did I just disagree with LMI?

Yessss!

(Otherwise, great debate guys. Good points on all sides.)

 

[Bubba]

I don't believe it is a newsflash to state that the media is biased. They are biased on every topic, from politics, to religion, to sports. The've got it all covered.

 

[Honey Nut Irish]

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Junkhead]

letting Bin Laden go numerous times

I respect your opinion, but seriously, Bin Laden is Bush's failure. Dead or Alive remember? I never voted for Clinton or Bush, didn't really like either at that time, but defending Bush while claiming Clinton was more at fault for 9/11 is ridiculous Rush Limbaugh drivel.

 

[Bubba]

"We are not the world's police..." Remember? Pretty sure that's what GW said...

 

[ACamp1900]

I respect your opinion, but seriously, Bin Laden is Bush's failure. Dead or Alive remember? I never voted for Clinton or Bush, didn't really like either at that time, but defending Bush while claiming Clinton was more at fault for 9/11 is ridiculous Rush Limbaugh drivel.

dude you are way off... I'm not defending Bush... nor am I a Bush guy... but saying 9/11 is Bush's fault is Micheal Moore drivel...

Clinton dealt with Bin Laden for years and went through two attacks... had the guy caught more than once and wouldn't okay the out... and the entire planning of 9/11 was done under his watch... I don't see whats so hard to understand...


Not catching Bin Laden AFTERWARDS??? absolutely on Bush and his people... and it pisses me off... but that's not what was mentioned, it was the attack itself... and to state 9/11 happened because Bush didnt do his job is way off base... in essence 9/11 all ready happened by time he or Gore ever won their respective tickets

 

[IrishAlum1997]

So I read this...I am still waiting to see where the associations with a Venezuelan dictator are.

So, Obama knew Ayers 15 years ago. And Ayers now knows Chavez (at some rally 3 years ago).

This ties Obama to Chavez how?

I'm referring to Ayers, not Chavez. I wish I had more time to surf the web for content to support my point of view. Can't compete with a history major.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

dude you are way off... I'm not defending Bush... nor am I a Bush guy... but saying 9/11 is Bush's fault is Micheal Moore drivel...

Clinton dealt with Bin Laden for years and went through two attacks... had the guy caught more than once and wouldn't okay the out... and the entire planning of 9/11 was done under his watch... I don't see whats so hard to understand...


Not catching Bin Laden AFTERWARDS??? absolutely on Bush and his people... and it pisses me off... but that's not what was mentioned, it was the attack itself... and to state 9/11 happened because Bush didnt do his job is way off base... in essence 9/11 all ready happened by time he or Gore ever won their respective tickets

So Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11 and we go to Iraq? We got that guy quickly, but Bin Ladden still roams freely?

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

after disarming the nation's military and letting Bin Laden go numerous times and putting on a puppet show in response to the Cole... My cat just let a big fat steamer that has done more for national security

Disarming the Nation's Military? You must be joking...

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

this from the guy who points the finger at the right over the use of the term "eltist"...

Was using your phraseology...I think "Educated Elite" does not really mean a lot, since there are plenty who are educated and not elite.

and the disconnection to what the core issues are with the middle class are certainly a problem... espec. since it is those people that eventually runs for office in most cases... for instance, education is not broken, the home life of our students, and the society around them is broken...

In some cases, maybe. It would be interesting to see why a place like Minnesota does so much better than say all the Southern States when it comes to education. Especially since Minnesota is a bastion of welfare loving socialists...or so I am told.

I agree the family plays a big part. But I can tell you why I left Oregon. In the suburbs of Portland where its decidedly more conservative my daughter's Kindergarten class was going to have 31 kids in it.

Where I just moved to, if the class size is going to be over 22 when the school year starts, they redistribute the students and create a new class.

Let me tell you that costs a CRAP LOAD of money. And it's worth it. Most states I know are too damn cheap to do that and it's very much the right thing to do. But let's face it, who here is willing to live in a Top5 taxed state? I made the choice and I am reaping the benefits...but it cost me thousands.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Clinton dealt with Bin Laden for years and went through two attacks... had the guy caught more than once and wouldn't okay the out... and the entire planning of 9/11 was done under his watch... I don't see whats so hard to understand...

Actually, he did not really believe he had him twice. And in the end he ordered many strikes to kill him. I agree, Clinton was NOT perfect on the score, but he ramped up as time went on. Then Bush simply ignored the warnings and gave ZERO attention to Bin Laden for 9 months.

TIME Magazine: Before Sept. 11 — The Secret History

Think about this quote from a BUSH official...

Clarke supported a substantial increase in American support for the Northern Alliance, the last remaining resistance to the Taliban. That way, terrorists graduating from the training camps would have been forced to stay in Afghanistan, fighting (and dying) for the Taliban on the front lines. At the same time, the U.S. military would start planning for air strikes on the camps and for the introduction of special-operations forces into Afghanistan. The plan was estimated to cost "several hundreds of millions of dollars." In the words of a senior Bush Administration official, the proposals amounted to "everything we've done since 9/11."

The proposal the Clinton Team gave to the Bush team was to do what Bush did after 9/11...including invading Afghanistan to get Bin Laden.

ALL BEFORE 9/11.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

in essence 9/11 all ready happened by time he or Gore ever won their respective tickets

Not necessarily... (reading the Time article is sure enlightening)

 

[ACamp1900]

Was using your phraseology...I think "Educated Elite" does not really mean a lot, since there are plenty who are educated and not elite.



In some cases, maybe. It would be interesting to see why a place like Minnesota does so much better than say all the Southern States when it comes to education. Especially since Minnesota is a bastion of welfare loving socialists...or so I am told.

I agree the family plays a big part. But I can tell you why I left Oregon. In the suburbs of Portland where its decidedly more conservative my daughter's Kindergarten class was going to have 31 kids in it.

Where I just moved to, if the class size is going to be over 22 when the school year starts, they redistribute the students and create a new class.

Let me tell you that costs a CRAP LOAD of money. And it's worth it. Most states I know are too damn cheap to do that and it's very much the right thing to do. But let's face it, who here is willing to live in a Top5 taxed state? I made the choice and I am reaping the benefits...but it cost me thousands.

Certainly we have to FUND education... California is THE example... and since you went there so will I, a vastly Conservative state...

Tops in many tax areas and DEAD LAST in per student spending... they will fire teachers instead of getting rid of free lunches for kids whose parents are already on welfare?!?!?!?!?!

anyway, back to the point, my wife and I are also putting our kinder in a 20 to 1 privy next year we enrolled her just a few weeks ago... right now her kider class in at 35ish to 1 last I checked but that number changes CONSTANTLY (mainly due to the two year county welfare max in cali, and I'm serious) it is sad... yet it is the schools fault and the teachers fault for these ridiculous test scores... and the solution is to make the school day strech three hours longer and have six day school weeks and make it even HARDER to be a teacher?? man alive this a perfect example of my previous post about the "problem"

yet as a teacher try to get a parent of the average student involved... or try to help the kid get out of a gang situation... society is built to hinder the teachers efforts right now...

all you need to do to education is properly fund it and get the fed and state law makers(who know jack crap about the realities of the problem) out of it and education will be just fine... as long as we start focusing on more obvious yet less talked about social issues

btw, when did you leave Oregon? I either had no clue or flat forgot, where are you at now??

 

[ACamp1900]

Actually, he did not really believe he had him twice. And in the end he ordered many strikes to kill him. I agree, Clinton was NOT perfect on the score, but he ramped up as time went on. Then Bush simply ignored the warnings and gave ZERO attention to Bin Laden for 9 months.

TIME Magazine: Before Sept. 11 — The Secret History

Think about this quote from a BUSH official...



The proposal the Clinton Team gave to the Bush team was to do what Bush did after 9/11...including invading Afghanistan to get Bin Laden.

ALL BEFORE 9/11.

I read it when it came out... it is interseting... but there is a difference between creating a problem and leaving it for the other guy instead of handling it years earlier as they should have... Clinton did a lot of good and a lot of bad (like most Presidents) but National Security and demilitarisation are his biggest gaffs in retro spec.

 

[ACamp1900]

So Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11 and we go to Iraq? We got that guy quickly, but Bin Ladden still roams freely?

sounds like we are in agreement.......

 

[Honey Nut Irish]

I have to say, the most important factor in a child's education is the quality of the parenting and not the teaching, especially at a young age. No teacher, no matter how great, is ever going to replace any decent parent.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Certainly we have to FUND education... California is THE example... and since you went there so will I, a vastly Conservative state...

Tops in many tax areas and DEAD LAST in per student spending... they will fire teachers instead of getting rid of free lunches for kids whose parents are already on welfare?!?!?!?!?!

California's problems run so deep in the taxation front. Their tax system has been destroyed by the initiative system. Have the voters create a tax system ad hoc is BAD.

yet as a teacher try to get a parent of the average student involved... or try to help the kid get out of a gang situation... society is built to hinder the teachers efforts right now...

Agreed. Parents leave it up to the schools WAY too much. Schools teach, but parents teach LEARNING.

all you need to do to education is properly fund it and get the fed and state law makers(who know jack crap about the realities of the problem) out of it and education will be just fine... as long as we start focusing on more obvious yet less talked about social issues

Agreed. NCLB is one of the fine 'fuck up' examples. It's not helping, just adding red tape.

btw, when did you leave Oregon? I either had no clue or flat forgot, where are you at now??

I left Oregon last August. When we looked around at Kindergarens in 2007, it was clear we needed to leave Oregon. Oregon has low taxes and underfund services. It's like a Southern state, but with better coffee and birkenstocks.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I read it when it came out... it is interseting... but there is a difference between creating a problem and leaving it for the other guy instead of handling it years earlier as they should have... Clinton did a lot of good and a lot of bad (like most Presidents) but National Security and demilitarisation are his biggest gaffs in retro spec.

1) He had to leave it...he was leaving office. 2 terms remember? He was ready to go and it was merely for Bush to say "GO!" But he deferred NatSec issues for 9 months.

2) There was no demilitarization. There was a draw down from the Cold War. That was the point of the Cold War...when you won, you got to stop fighting it. 'Cause let's face it, most of what was shut down was stuff to fight Soviets with...not what we were going to fight terrorists with.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I have to say, the most important factor in a child's education is the quality of the parenting and not the teaching, especially at a young age. No teacher, no matter how great, is ever going to replace any decent parent.

Agreed. But then, good parenting with bad schools ends badly too.

It takes two to Tango.

 

[Bubba]

Agreed. But then, good parenting with bad schools ends badly too.

It takes two to Tango.

Absolutely with you on this one. At least in the lower grades, the 30 to 1 ratio (or worse) is absolutely horrible because each child doesn't get the opportunity for enrichment. Only the children with issues get the attention...which they should...but not at the neglect of the other children. If they aren't learning anything at school, you have nothing to reinforce in the home afterwards. In my mind, teachers teach processes and information and the parents back it up with continued effort, thought and determination towards a complete understanding.

 

[Junkhead]

... but there is a difference between creating a problem and leaving it for the other guy instead of handling it years earlier as they should have...

Like Bush leaving Bin Laden on the loose for the next administration?

 

[ACamp1900]

Absolutely with you on this one. At least in the lower grades, the 30 to 1 ratio (or worse) is absolutely horrible because each child doesn't get the opportunity for enrichment. Only the children with issues get the attention...which they should...but not at the neglect of the other children. If they aren't learning anything at school, you have nothing to reinforce in the home afterwards. In my mind, teachers teach processes and information and the parents back it up with continued effort, thought and determination towards a complete understanding.

Again , this is not a school problem, or a 'fault' if you will of education

this is a state funding and legislation problem, they fuck it up and then point the finger at the teachers and admins who are forced to follow their policies while 20 to 1 (one of the very few good things about NCNB) is totally forgotten

Like Bush leaving Bin Laden on the loose for the next administration?

dude you are unreal, you don't like Bush, we get it... but you attack him towards me like you expect me to defend him on any issue as blindly as you attack him...