Opinion and Religion

ACamp1900

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If u have to start interpretating the bible, which seems to open up a lot of "human error" possibilites, then the whole thing is more of a parable than the direct word of god. It doesnt seem to me that you can know which is which. How does/did the church decide what was literal and what was figurative. I know that there are parables in the bible, but as far as I can remember the stories that were parables were pretty obvious, and I thought everything else was THE WORD.

Or you can simply find that if the Bible is divinely inspired and God is all knowing/all powerful; then God must be more than okay with us taking our own views on practice of faith as long is it is a practice of faith... that is where Christians find (Or at least should) justification for: Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Mormons, Seventh Day, etc...

Otherwise one would have expected an A-Z, easy to follow, directive on practice of faith from an omniscient, omnipotent being... much of what any church uses as said directive is of course interpretive... Besides, God did create us all unque and apart from each other, it is one easy step to assume he wouldn't expect a cookie-cutter idea on faith as well...

Or it simply isn't up to man to question such things and we're all screwed.......... lol


either way the understanding of seperate views that examples like this should bring about simply aren't there at times... sadens and frustrates me to say the least
 
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NeuteredDoomer

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Good God this has to be the best thread ever. Jesus, I can't believe I just sat and read every post at once.

I started by clicking on the video and turning up the volume while I took care of some business away from the comp. I started thinking "what a waste of breath" and "what is your point", and just at that moment, he says "So what is my point?"

Then he made no point. He should have defined what "truth" is, just like all the posts above try to do. So many Christian "pushers" that I have met are former drug users that claim to have straightened up, and therefore call themselves "saved." I sat with a neighbor for an hour, and when I finally called his bluff, he admitted to previous heavy drug use. That didn't bother me, because today we are good friends looking out for each other.

I don't mind "Born agains" pushing themselves on me if I have time to listen to their "whys", but too many of them are ignorant.

Pham, you are magic my friend. Stay the course. Don't deviate.

"TOLERANCE" That is an action that I did not read in anyone's post. I believe tolerance is one of the most important actions.

Those who do not tolerate one's opinion can start wars.

So many great posts here.

GoIrish!!! You da best my man. Loved your post. Luv ya buddy.

P.S. I am Roman Catholic as hell. teehee
 
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ACamp1900

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good point, and as a Christian I believe "tolerance" needs to be redefined... espec. on the left... lefties tend to claim a lack of tolerance in regards to Christians, but they now are trying to force certain actions on Churches and Church Hospitals that when looked at objectively go against everything 'tolerance' stands for... I know many Church goers don't help with their exceptance of others... that was one of my original points... but how do you preach tolerance, then force your beliefs on those who feel your beliefs are sinful??
 

Jason Pham

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I'm enthralled to hear what your perception of a "soul" is. How much does it weigh - what does it look like, where it resides in the human body, etc. There is no soul organ. If you are about to say the ability to distinguish from right or wrong - I would point you to sociopaths, I would point you to the fact that our ideas of right and wrong are taught to us from our peers and teachers. It is not something naturally instilled in us in a "soul" of some sort. If you are about to say the ability to reason and understand consequences, I would point you to the cerebral cortex of the brain - where these capabilities ACTUALLY reside.

Don't try to be condescending. I am not here to "enthrall" anyone or have them ask me questions to which they already expect fanciful answers. I have, to the best of my ability, been fair and respectful, it'd be nice to enjoy the same decency.

But pretending that you didn't try to get smart with me...

I reject both of your proposed answers but will address them anyway: First, regarding your pointing out of sociopaths, anencephaly, as you will know, is a birth disorder which results in a fetus without the frontal portion of its brain. Except we all know that brains are a common human feature. So even if we were to accept your answer that the soul is not more than knowing right from wrong, we can not say from this argument that the soul does not exist from the existence of those who cannot discern right from wrong. Furthermore, assuming we accept this definition, which I don't, just because the soul embodies one's knowing of right from wrong does not mean that it does not need to be learned. If we accept the premise of your first argument, we would then be arguing that the brain doesn't actually exist because all that we know is known through learning. Of course this is not so, and assuming your first definition for the soul, having to learn right from wrong does not defeat the argument for the existence of a soul.

To your second argument, regarding the brain as being the center of reason and consequential thought, I say again, of course it is. Even accepting, which I don't, the definition that the soul is not more than our ability to reason, Newtonian physics, which taught us to regard matter, not as inert and passive, but as instinct with force. Why should not life and consciousness be among its unexplored potencies ? It is then unsound to say that because our capacity to reason is located in the physical realm that this necessarily precludes considering its non-material force.

In order to define the soul it is first necessary to strip the term soul from its theological meaning. Nature tells us that everything has a form and matter. In living things the form is the soul. So, for all living things the term soul and form are interchangeable. We have direct knowledge of this in that we call all chairs a chair and all dogs a dog. They have the form of chair and the form of dog and then it is the matter that differentiates between this chair and that chair or this dog and that dog. Just as with a human you can point to a human and say that she is a human because she has the form of human and then it is the matter that says that she is this human as opposed to another human. Now in living this we make a further distinction about form and we use the term soul. The soul is the animating principle in that it is living. It has the power to gain nutrition as with the plants, animals and man. As one moves up the hierarchy of being we see different types of souls. There is the vegetative soul of plants, the reactive soul of animals and the rational soul of man. So, in man you have a rational soul and virtually you find the animal and plant soul. In an animal you find the animal soul and virtually the plant soul and in plants you find the vegetative soul alone.
 

Jason Pham

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OFF TOPIC: Despite what you all may now think, I am so just a Political Science and Philosophy double major. It's actually quite nice to consider these questions with people who might not think the same way I do since there aren't as many at Notre Dame.
 

ACamp1900

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OFF TOPIC: Despite what you all may now think, I am so just a Political Science and Philosophy double major. It's actually quite nice to consider these questions with people who might not think the same way I do since there aren't as many at Notre Dame.

I always figured you were a Male Dancer who worked the gay bars in Duluth while posing as a student on IE because of an extreme chemical imbalance........

guess I had you pegged wrong???


:devil_2:
 
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NeuteredDoomer

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... but how do you preach tolerance, then force your beliefs on those who feel your beliefs are sinful??
You lead by example.

For example, I wear purple socks.

I thought all Catholics that follow the Pope were Roman Catholic. I don't know why Irish Catholics call themselves Irish Catholic. Should I call myself U.S. American Catholic?

Help me out here Pham. Oh Snap. Never mind. You are just a double major in those two things.
 
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notredomer23

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I am at a point with my life where I am having a hard to time really believing in a particular Christian religion. I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I can't say how much more I believe. I am Catholic, so I also believe Mary is the mother of God, but that is all confusing to me. I am really not sure if organized religion was made to worship God, or to get powerful. I am not trying to say I believe either. I am just not sure at this point. But one thing I know. I would rather die believing in an afterlife and a God and there be nothing, then dying not believing in a god or an afterlife, and it turns out there was one. No matter what I will always believe in God. Just religion is confusing.
I consider Faith and Religion to different spectrums
 

NeuteredDoomer

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My friend, maybe this is one idea: Maybe Jesus was a living example of the Bible. Maybe "turning the other cheek" meant that if you try to live a decent life (with a bunch of mistakes) and people who don't like you try to harm you, you just turn your cheek while you continue on your attempt at a decent path. (I am far from a Bible scholar...)

And maybe you just get into a linebacker stance. And draw the line.

Where are you Pham? GoIrish!!! ? BestIrish47?
 
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Bubba

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I am at a point with my life where I am having a hard to time really believing in a particular Christian religion. I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I can't say how much more I believe. I am Catholic, so I also believe Mary is the mother of God, but that is all confusing to me. I am really not sure if organized religion was made to worship God, or to get powerful. I am not trying to say I believe either. I am just not sure at this point. But one thing I know. I would rather die believing in an afterlife and a God and there be nothing, then dying not believing in a god or an afterlife, and it turns out there was one. No matter what I will always believe in God. Just religion is confusing.
I consider Faith and Religion to different spectrums

Pascal's wager: The best bet. If you have the decision to make about whether there is a God or not, the best bet is to wager for the existence of God. The worst case scenario is that there isn't, but you lived as though there was (and hopefully in a manner suitable to God). If you deny God's exsistence, and there is one....well....not so great outcome.

I personally didn't use this logic in making up my mind about the exsistence of God, but I could see how someone could use this train of thought.
 

Quinntastic

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Don't try to be condescending. I am not here to "enthrall" anyone or have them ask me questions to which they already expect fanciful answers. I have, to the best of my ability, been fair and respectful, it'd be nice to enjoy the same decency.

But pretending that you didn't try to get smart with me...

I reject both of your proposed answers but will address them anyway: First, regarding your pointing out of sociopaths, anencephaly, as you will know, is a birth disorder which results in a fetus without the frontal portion of its brain. Except we all know that brains are a common human feature. So even if we were to accept your answer that the soul is not more than knowing right from wrong, we can not say from this argument that the soul does not exist from the existence of those who cannot discern right from wrong. Furthermore, assuming we accept this definition, which I don't, just because the soul embodies one's knowing of right from wrong does not mean that it does not need to be learned. If we accept the premise of your first argument, we would then be arguing that the brain doesn't actually exist because all that we know is known through learning. Of course this is not so, and assuming your first definition for the soul, having to learn right from wrong does not defeat the argument for the existence of a soul.

To your second argument, regarding the brain as being the center of reason and consequential thought, I say again, of course it is. Even accepting, which I don't, the definition that the soul is not more than our ability to reason, Newtonian physics, which taught us to regard matter, not as inert and passive, but as instinct with force. Why should not life and consciousness be among its unexplored potencies ? It is then unsound to say that because our capacity to reason is located in the physical realm that this necessarily precludes considering its non-material force.

In order to define the soul it is first necessary to strip the term soul from its theological meaning. Nature tells us that everything has a form and matter. In living things the form is the soul. So, for all living things the term soul and form are interchangeable. We have direct knowledge of this in that we call all chairs a chair and all dogs a dog. They have the form of chair and the form of dog and then it is the matter that differentiates between this chair and that chair or this dog and that dog. Just as with a human you can point to a human and say that she is a human because she has the form of human and then it is the matter that says that she is this human as opposed to another human. Now in living this we make a further distinction about form and we use the term soul. The soul is the animating principle in that it is living. It has the power to gain nutrition as with the plants, animals and man. As one moves up the hierarchy of being we see different types of souls. There is the vegetative soul of plants, the reactive soul of animals and the rational soul of man. So, in man you have a rational soul and virtually you find the animal and plant soul. In an animal you find the animal soul and virtually the plant soul and in plants you find the vegetative soul alone.

Please don't misunderstand - I was not trying to be condescending. I always enjoy listening to someone try to tell me what a soul is - I've heard so many different answers when I ask the question.

However, all I read in that post was a lot of Sophocles-esque reasoning, a lot of circular reasoning, and a lot of things that just did not make sense. The soul has the power to gain nutrition? How, exactly. The power to gain nutrition is in the cells of our small and large intestines. What is a "vegetative soul" exactly? And when you were talking about a soul being a form of something (your chair and dog analogy) it sounds to me as if you were just pointing out that dogs look like dogs because they're dogs. That makes no sense. Dogs look like dogs because they have 42 chromosomes, and on those chromosomes it tells each cell what to differentiate into (hair cells, liver cells, eye cells, olafactory cells, etc). Chairs look like chairs because they have been made in a factory. People look like people because they were conceived using 23 chromosomes from their mother and 23 chromosomes from their father. Every single thing that makes a person look and act like a person is written on the DNA found on those chromosomes.
 

Quinntastic

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Pascal's wager: The best bet. If you have the decision to make about whether there is a God or not, the best bet is to wager for the existence of God. The worst case scenario is that there isn't, but you lived as though there was (and hopefully in a manner suitable to God). If you deny God's exsistence, and there is one....well....not so great outcome.

I personally didn't use this logic in making up my mind about the exsistence of God, but I could see how someone could use this train of thought.
Pascal's wager is a very interesting argument for anyone who is religious to make. Here's an excerpt from a book by Richard Dawkins that I think makes a very nice counterargument to that line of reasoning:

"There is something distinctly odd about the argument, however. Believing is not something you can decide to do as a matter of policy. At least, it is not something I can decide to do as an act of will. I can decide to go to church and I can decide to recite the Nicene Creed, and I can decide to swear on a stack of bibles that I believe every word inside them. But none of that can make me actually believe it if I don't. Pascal's Wager could only ever be an argument for feigning belief in God. And the God that you claim to believe in had better not be of the omniscient kind or he'd see through the deception...But why, in any case, do we so readily accept the idea that the one thing you must do if you want to please God is believe in him? What's so special about believing? Isn't it just as likely that God would reward kindness, or generosity, or humility? Or sincerity? What if God is a scientist who regards honest seeking after truth as the supreme virtue? Indeed, wouldn't the designer of the universe have to be a scientist? Bertrand Russell was asked what he would say if he died and found himself confronted by God, demanding to know why Russell had not believed in him. 'Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence' was his reply. Mightn't God respect Russell for his courageous skepticism far more than he would respect Pascal for his cowardly bet-hedging? And, while we cannot know which way God would jump, we don't need to know in order to refute Pascal's Wager. We are talking about a bet, remember, and Pascal wasn't claiming that his wager enjoyed anything but very long odds. Would you bet on God's valuing dishonestly faked belief (or even honest belief) over honest skepticism?"

I know he is a bit harsh in some of his words, but I just can't say it any better.
 

Jason Pham

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Please don't misunderstand - I was not trying to be condescending. I always enjoy listening to someone try to tell me what a soul is - I've heard so many different answers when I ask the question.

However, all I read in that post was a lot of Sophocles-esque reasoning, a lot of circular reasoning, and a lot of things that just did not make sense. The soul has the power to gain nutrition? How, exactly. The power to gain nutrition is in the cells of our small and large intestines. What is a "vegetative soul" exactly? And when you were talking about a soul being a form of something (your chair and dog analogy) it sounds to me as if you were just pointing out that dogs look like dogs because they're dogs. That makes no sense. Dogs look like dogs because they have 42 chromosomes, and on those chromosomes it tells each cell what to differentiate into (hair cells, liver cells, eye cells, olafactory cells, etc). Chairs look like chairs because they have been made in a factory. People look like people because they were conceived using 23 chromosomes from their mother and 23 chromosomes from their father. Every single thing that makes a person look and act like a person is written on the DNA found on those chromosomes.

It would a be a stretch to say that I misunderstand you. Asking me the weight of and telling me that there is no organ of the soul ? You either believe me to be an idiot or to have idiotic thoughts. As stated before, let's all at least pretend we can have an adult conversation without all the ad hominem.

As for Platonic forms, every object has a form which allows us identify them and differentiate them from other objects. The form of the chair, for example, is our conceptual understanding of what a chair is: something on which we sit. That is, in a way, what makes a chair, a chair. Of course a chair has other attributes such as its material, it's construction, etc. which differentiate it from other chairs but the form is solely its essence. Plato calls the forms in living things souls. So the form, or in this case that which we call the soul, a plant involves it taking in nutrition and growing. How it does this is, as you stated, by it's physical constitution and processes, but the how is not the concern of the form, only the what. And the what is that all plants take in nutrition in order to grow and therefore that is part of its form. That is part of the essence of being a plant. Above that, we have the form of the animal, and then the form of the human. Each describing the essence of what the animal and the human is, respectively.

Please note that I have not yet asserted of the soul as defined by Catholicism. The soul, until now, is nothing more than that which makes a human, human. That is, you cannot refute it because it is merely a set definition which, until this point. All I have done is laid out what a form is, that the form is called the soul in a living being, and that a form is the essence of its being. The essence if human being, as you stated, involves sequences of chromosomes among other things, all these together constitution the human form, or soul.

With that said, from this point forward, I shall refer to the Catholic conception of the human soul when I use the word. The soul is largely, as far as my understanding on the matter goes (which is admittedly amateurish), what differentiates us from animals. So in order to describe the human soul, a logical place to start would be to articulate the differences between the human and the animal forms. Allow me to put forth a few for your digestion:

First, we are acquainted with abstract objects (sets, propositions, numbers, properties, etc.). Material entities cannot be acquainted with immaterial entities. Therefore there is some immaterial principle of knowing. This is what we would define as the soul.

Second, we make free choices. A choice is free only if it is not caused, that is, if there are at least two possible worlds that are identical to the point at which the choice is made, but each of which contains a different choice. The physical world is deterministic, wherein there is a chain of causation, the principle of choosing cannot be physical. This choosing thing is the soul.

What you seem to be overlooking is that we are not imposing on man this thing called a soul but rather we identify these aspects about man and identify the operating principle of these aspects the soul. Thus it is not an imposition of a construct but it is an identification of what is. We note what is in the human construct and denote some of that to be the soul, or that which holds the faculty to perform the functions I asserted above.
 
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Jason Pham

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Pascal's wager is a very interesting argument for anyone who is religious to make. Here's an excerpt from a book by Richard Dawkins that I think makes a very nice counterargument to that line of reasoning:

"There is something distinctly odd about the argument, however. Believing is not something you can decide to do as a matter of policy. At least, it is not something I can decide to do as an act of will. I can decide to go to church and I can decide to recite the Nicene Creed, and I can decide to swear on a stack of bibles that I believe every word inside them. But none of that can make me actually believe it if I don't. Pascal's Wager could only ever be an argument for feigning belief in God. And the God that you claim to believe in had better not be of the omniscient kind or he'd see through the deception...But why, in any case, do we so readily accept the idea that the one thing you must do if you want to please God is believe in him? What's so special about believing? Isn't it just as likely that God would reward kindness, or generosity, or humility? Or sincerity? What if God is a scientist who regards honest seeking after truth as the supreme virtue? Indeed, wouldn't the designer of the universe have to be a scientist? Bertrand Russell was asked what he would say if he died and found himself confronted by God, demanding to know why Russell had not believed in him. 'Not enough evidence, God, not enough evidence' was his reply. Mightn't God respect Russell for his courageous skepticism far more than he would respect Pascal for his cowardly bet-hedging? And, while we cannot know which way God would jump, we don't need to know in order to refute Pascal's Wager. We are talking about a bet, remember, and Pascal wasn't claiming that his wager enjoyed anything but very long odds. Would you bet on God's valuing dishonestly faked belief (or even honest belief) over honest skepticism?"

I know he is a bit harsh in some of his words, but I just can't say it any better.

Richard makes a common misstep, minor in its being, but major in its consequences. The point of believing is not to please God. As I argued in a previous post, if a supreme being exists, all-powerful, what can a human actually do to "please" this being ? That is, what can a supreme being want if he has the power to not want on his own accord ?

The point of identifying with the Catholic faith is, not merely the worship of God which is not to be mistaken to be a small part of our faith, but is in addition living life in a way we believe achieves the greatest benefit for ourselves as individuals and as a common human family. A way of life we believe to be derived from the teachings of the Catholic faith and its head, who is Christ.

EDIT: The question may be, what does God want from us ? My answer is nothing. My follow-up is that He wants everything for us. He interdicts because he means for us to live a whole and healthy life, both materially and non-materially. And that is the value of Pascal's wager.
 
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Jason Pham

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I always figured you were a Male Dancer who worked the gay bars in Duluth while posing as a student on IE because of an extreme chemical imbalance........

guess I had you pegged wrong???


:devil_2:

I see you've been to Duluth recently. ;)
 

Jason Pham

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Where are you Pham? GoIrish!!! ? BestIrish47?

I was in rehearsal, (WARNING: Needless and unashamed self-plug) for the choir with which I will be singing on NBC, to be nationally syndicated on Easter morning. ;)

But seriously... I love this thread and our discussion but this has burnt my entire day with which I usually am able to get a lot of work done. And considering I have an exam on Monday and a bit of reading with which to catch up and considering I won't be able to get much of that taken care of this weekend as my father will be in town for our Junior Parents Weekend... I sorta loathe this thread at the same time. Mainly, just ACamp for starting it.
 

TheMightyQuinn10

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The 3 Things You Dont Bring Up....

Religion, Politics, and the Vietnam War (Conflict)(Depending on whose side you were on)...endless debates....

(EDIT)

redundant debates..
 
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Jason Pham

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The 3 Things You Dont Bring Up....

Religion, Politics, and the Vietnam War (Conflict)...endless debates....

(EDIT)

redundant debates..

You know what the worst part is ? Those are my three foci of study here. As not only a political science major but with a specialization in international relations and political theory, and as someone pretty involved in the campus ministry community, those three topics pretty much monopolize my discussions.

BTW, HP ? Nice.
 

TheMightyQuinn10

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You know what the worst part is ? Those are my three foci of study here. As not only a political science major but with a specialization in international relations and political theory, and as someone pretty involved in the campus ministry community, those three topics pretty much monopolize my discussions.

BTW, HP ? Nice.

Good Luck !

Work that is....HP is the greatest thing ever....
 
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Bubba

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To stir the pot a little.....

It is easy to look at those who claim to be (or actually are) believers and say that they have not looked at the evidence. To say that they believe blindly because they were raised in a certain manner; or have chosen to deny based on childhood experience...we all have a little rebellion in us. (Not judging Quinn, don't take it as such).

But, I personally believe that few people (scientists included) actually possess the objectivity needed to truly evaluate the information gathered and make a decision that goes against what they were trying to prove in the first place. Many of us start out with a preconcieved notion, an agenda. Proving your own point of view wrong is not very satisfying. Especially if you've held it in high esteem or for any length of time.....or if a potential profit is involved!

Many people are not comfortable believing anything without proof (faith). I am probably like that in all areas in my life except for spirituality. (and even spirituality has led me on a journey that at one point had me in complete denial and with a hatred for religion). At work, faith doesn't cut it for me. I need proof. But, for me, there have been way to many coincidences and experiences in my life for me to NOT believe. Maybe I need this, maybe it's emotional or spiritual survival, but it is real to me.



I have enjoyed our debate here...but I think TMQ10 is right. This is a tough topic.
 

Sureal

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I've read through most of the posts in this thoughtful thread. I'm mostly glad that nobody closed it because someone might get offended.

I've read a number of times about issues that concern proof over faith. Quick question.

Where does the universe end and begin?

One more question.

Why is there a moral standard set in every civilization?
 
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Honey Nut Irish

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I tend to think that science and religion have a lot more in common than people imagine. You can't prove that god exists, but neither is anything really proven true in science. You can prove that a theory is most likely true, but never completely true. In science things can only be disproved, even something such as gravity. We know from thousands of years of experience and observation that when you drop a ball it will fall back to the earth. But all it would take is if just once you dropped a ball and it flew straight up the theory of gravity would be proven wrong. Newton's theory of gravity was improved upon by Einstein's relativity, which may very well be replaced someday too by an even better theory.

Science is constantly evolving and getting closer to explaining how the universe works. But science still has no answer to "why" behind the way it works. In fact science probably will never give us the answer to that question. That I think is what religion essentially is.

Religion is not science because it can't be proven wrong, you can't prove there is no God. I think science explains the universe, but religion explains that elusive "why." Personally I find that believing in a god is a lot simpler, and more sensible, than believing in chance and chaos. The more I learn about science the more I am amazed with the universe, and the more it convinces me that there must be a God.
 

LOVEMYIRISH

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How long would it take for evolution to be noticeable? How far back is man's recorded history?

Evolution is noticeable in a matter of years when dealing with creatures that reproduce quickly enough... Remember, it's not always fuzzy little animals.
 
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