how much longer will this go on?

[The Polish Irishman]

The Great Debate.....

You know your program is no longer elite, when a 4-2 start is considered acceptable...

 

[Jason Pham]

The Great Debate.....

You know your program is no longer elite, when a 4-2 start is considered acceptable...

When do you suppose the last time our program was considered elite ? We've shown flashes of being a good team every so often but I think it's been long accepted that we are struggling to return to elite status.

 

[kmoose]

But the new guy is right about where ND is versus its talent pool. Butch Davis took a dogmeat UNC team to 5-1 his second season and just beat ND. That's the standard. Why shouldn't an ND fan expect as good or better?



SteveM

Ironically, North Carolina went 3-9, the year before Davis took over. They finished 4-8, the next year. ND went 3-9 last year, and is now 4-2, so you are saying Weis will meet the standard, even if ND loses 6 straight, to end the season?

 

[SteveM]

Iteration...

Iteration...

I can see your point there (about polarizing trench wars), in fact I'm as guilty as anyone! I feel very strongly, as you can tell about these 2 guys, esp Jimmy.

But as for the 2nd point, you can't compare other schools rebuilding to ND if you're not going to mention the fact that other schools can bring in thugs from the ghettoist of ghettos as well as JC transfers, when ND simply can't. I don't see how you can ignore that fact. CW has had to completely turn the program around, recruit his ass off, and still have half the list a NC or an Alabama can recruit from. You don't think that is an advantage?

Now, with ND looking better and better, we have advantages that other schools don't have that are coming into play. But it takes time, and it ain't easy. Imagine wanting to get a player the calibur of Ray Malauga at USC, but having ZERO shot at him because they wouldn't even let him in the city of South Bend much less the campus. USC gets 7-10 of those guys PER YEAR.

So SteveM, if you're going to say Butch Davis has done this and that in just year 2, don't forget to say mention the whole story. You might also want to mention that CW had a top 5 ranked team in YEAR 1 that went to a BCS bowl. Yeah, he sucked last year for a myriad of reasons, but only a blind fool couldn't see the progress that the program has made this year...

NDinL.A,

I see what you are saying. But a couple of things. I'm not familiar with the kids on the UNC roster. But Davis had the good rep of cleaning up the muck that was Dennis Erickson's Miami. So the thug label may be cast about to widely.

BTW, being the "anti-thug" school should actually be a recruiting plus for ND going after the talented, decent kids. There may be fewer of them. But there are also fewer clean programs.

And Ray Malauga is kind of a red herring. Because Butch doesn't have those kinds of guys either.

And here's a nuance that other schools don't have to consider. If ND under Charlie tops out at 8-4/9-3 Frank Solich Nebraska, it will be because they don't get the quality wins during the season. But then get upgraded at Bowl time because we're ND. And we get our clocks cleaned.

Ground Hog Daying that scenario year after year won't work.

SteveM

 

[NDinL.A.]

And here's a nuance that other schools don't have to consider. If ND under Charlie tops out at 8-4/9-3 Frank Solich Nebraska, it will be because they don't get the quality wins during the season. But then get upgraded at Bowl time because we're ND. And we get our clocks cleaned.

Ground Hog Daying that scenario year after year won't work.

SteveM

Agreed. I'll be first in line behind Phork to fire Charlie if that happens.

Also, Nice point w/ Butch. We'll see what kind of kid he's getting when the police reports start coming out. He turned Miami into a somewhat respectable institution, which is damn near impossible...

 

[NDinL.A.]

Ironically, North Carolina went 3-9, the year before Davis took over. They finished 4-8, the next year. ND went 3-9 last year, and is now 4-2, so you are saying Weis will meet the standard, even if ND loses 6 straight, to end the season?

Nice point!

 

[leahy's lads]

NDinL.A,

I see what you are saying. But a couple of things. I'm not familiar with the kids on the UNC roster. But Davis had the good rep of cleaning up the muck that was Dennis Erickson's Miami. So the thug label may be cast about to widely.

BTW, being the "anti-thug" school should actually be a recruiting plus for ND going after the talented, decent kids. There may be fewer of them. But there are also fewer clean programs.

And Ray Malauga is kind of a red herring. Because Butch doesn't have those kinds of guys either.

And here's a nuance that other schools don't have to consider. If ND under Charlie tops out at 8-4/9-3 Frank Solich Nebraska, it will be because they don't get the quality wins during the season. But then get upgraded at Bowl time because we're ND. And we get our clocks cleaned.

Ground Hog Daying that scenario year after year won't work.

SteveM

Steve,

you are correct again! LA better duck this time!!! Anyhow, I will not keep this going, I am backing off the issue......

 

[Jason Pham]

An obligatory note from the moderator:

I'd like to remind everyone that in light of the tensions that rise after losses, we can and will all disagree and debate among ourselves like adults or something which resembles it.

 

[phork]

I'd also like to bring up the point about thugs... Really how dare you call his kids thugs, do you know them? Have you followed his recruiting. Basically who are you to make a statement like that? Not saying that I know them either, but you can't label someone if you don't know them.

While our passing game hits new heights every game, our running game flounders because its been abandoned WAY too early. I am actually shocked that any top tier backs would come here seeing how Charlie dumps the run at the slightest hint of trouble.

In the end I do think that Davis, and some others, are light years ahead of Charlie as far as coaching, but Charlie is getting there.

 

[PADOMERNUT]

keep in mind davis has been a head coach alot longer than charlie has. and he has done it at both levels. that cant be understated. charlie is learning on the job much like his players, but you have to give him credit for his willingness to make changes.

I will make one more statement on this thread. Folks, this is not 1977 anymore, nor is it 1988. College football is a different beast these days. ND is not and will not be elite every year. Nobody is, even those God forsaken trojans were awful the entire decade of the 1990's. Everyone goes through dry spells. With the amount of scholarships that are out there the playing field is leveled like never before. ND was put in a whole by bad recruiting for the last decade. We have only started to come out of it. We are restocking the shelves, but it takes time. Anyone who thinks that ND gets the best athletes every year and has for the last 10 years is simply just wrong. They have the attitude that if a player comes to ND, then they must be the best athlete. That is just simply not true. They are quality young men and great representatives of the University, but the fact remains over the last 10 years or so they were not the best football players this country had to offer. But look at the last couple of recruiting classes, we are getting back to that point.

I firmly believe these kids will lead ND back to the elite, but guess what, we will be back having mediocre seasons once again in the next 10-20 years. It just happens. Everything goes in cycles. Guess what, even USC will come back down.

 

[IHateMarkMay]

Alright two things:

Anybody want to explain to me how Weis talked smack about the boys from Kalamazoo?

Another thing. When a coach comes in to a new program (ask DickRod up in Ann Arbor) there are growing pains. I think we all know that Charlie came in here and whooped our opponents around the first two years, no growing pains needed. Last year was our growing pain and we are still recovering. Expecting a BCS game from us this year would be like expecting a BCS game for DickRod up at UM... and we all know that isnt going to happen, especially if you cant beat a middle of the road MAC team at home. I, for one, will take 4-2 right now, yes we should be 5-1, we are a young team and we found out we cant give the ball up five times and still win. I'd rather us lose by 5 to NC by giving the ball up 5 times than going 10-1, being ranked in the top 5, giving the ball up 5 times against USC and letting them to that to us. I take last week as a learning experience.

 

[SteveM]

Catholic In Name Only?

Catholic In Name Only?

I'd also like to bring up the point about thugs... Really how dare you call his kids thugs, do you know them? Have you followed his recruiting. Basically who are you to make a statement like that? Not saying that I know them either, but you can't label someone if you don't know them.
.

Let me second that.

The kids not looking like "us" or talking like "us" says nothing about their character or their range of talents.

Clinton Portis and Santana Moss are two Miami guys here on the Redskins. Great hard working guys.

And a kid not being academically competitive at ND does not make him a thug.

From what I remember, we are supposed to have some Christian generosity tucked in our back pockets. Must have fallen out as we retrieved the malicious hand grenades in fighting the Jimmy Wars.

SteveM

 

[Irish1]

Alright two things:

Anybody want to explain to me how Weis talked smack about the boys from Kalamazoo?

Another thing. When a coach comes in to a new program (ask DickRod up in Ann Arbor) there are growing pains. I think we all know that Charlie came in here and whooped our opponents around the first two years, no growing pains needed. Last year was our growing pain and we are still recovering. Expecting a BCS game from us this year would be like expecting a BCS game for DickRod up at UM... and we all know that isnt going to happen, especially if you cant beat a middle of the road MAC team at home. I, for one, will take 4-2 right now, yes we should be 5-1, we are a young team and we found out we cant give the ball up five times and still win. I'd rather us lose by 5 to NC by giving the ball up 5 times than going 10-1, being ranked in the top 5, giving the ball up 5 times against USC and letting them to that to us. I take last week as a learning experience.

i completely agree!

 

[PADOMERNUT]

Alright two things:

Anybody want to explain to me how Weis talked smack about the boys from Kalamazoo?

Another thing. When a coach comes in to a new program (ask DickRod up in Ann Arbor) there are growing pains. I think we all know that Charlie came in here and whooped our opponents around the first two years, no growing pains needed. Last year was our growing pain and we are still recovering. Expecting a BCS game from us this year would be like expecting a BCS game for DickRod up at UM... and we all know that isnt going to happen, especially if you cant beat a middle of the road MAC team at home. I, for one, will take 4-2 right now, yes we should be 5-1, we are a young team and we found out we cant give the ball up five times and still win. I'd rather us lose by 5 to NC by giving the ball up 5 times than going 10-1, being ranked in the top 5, giving the ball up 5 times against USC and letting them to that to us. I take last week as a learning experience.

Reps!!!

 

[Irish Rogue]

Wouldn't it be a little bit more fair for them to focus on winning the rest of the games?

I agree, but this program is in need of some good karma. A Bowl win would do wonders for the team.

 

[BeatSC]

Look at the schedule last year

Look at the schedule last year

While I garee that CW did a little learning on the job last year he has obviously learned from it. Holding more physical practices, becoming a head coach instead of the offensive coordinator, realizing these are kids (not Pros) who are still learning and need teaching. He made some tough decisions last year (let alot of the kids play to see what they've got). This is paying off with Tate, Kumara, Clausen, Smith, etc., He is doing the same thing this year with Floyd, Blanton, Rudolph, Gray, Johnson etc.. He was baiscally fielding a High School team last year and playing one of the toughest schedules in the country. We played well enough to beat UNC (with mostly Freshman & soph)on the road and we had a couple of mistakes. We won every aspect of the game except turnovers (which killed us). Let's look at the glass half full. CW was a master to have a #2 recruting class with 3 wins.

I go by BeatSC but I am realistic enough to know it doesn't look good this year especially with the game at the Colliseum. Everything is pointing to next year back in South Bend. Our expectations should be high for that game and I don't want to hear any excuses for CW next year. We need to work on the ground game, and the defense strength, size and speed. Once our guys acclamate to Tenuta's system we have the athletes to wreak havoc on our opponents.

Think long term (next year)

Welcome aboard and keep looking for the silver lining.

 

[tko]

While I garee that CW did a little learning on the job last year he has obviously learned from it. Holding more physical practices, becoming a head coach instead of the offensive coordinator, realizing these are kids (not Pros) who are still learning and need teaching. He made some tough decisions last year (let alot of the kids play to see what they've got). This is paying off with Tate, Kumara, Clausen, Smith, etc., He is doing the same thing this year with Floyd, Blanton, Rudolph, Gray, Johnson etc.. He was baiscally fielding a High School team last year and playing one of the toughest schedules in the country. We played well enough to beat UNC (with mostly Freshman & soph)on the road and we had a couple of mistakes. We won every aspect of the game except turnovers (which killed us). Let's look at the glass half full. CW was a master to have a #2 recruting class with 3 wins.

I go by BeatSC but I am realistic enough to know it doesn't look good this year especially with the game at the Colliseum. Everything is pointing to next year back in South Bend. Our expectations should be high for that game and I don't want to hear any excuses for CW next year. We need to work on the ground game, and the defense strength, size and speed. Once our guys acclamate to Tenuta's system we have the athletes to wreak havoc on our opponents.

Think long term (next year)

Welcome aboard and keep looking for the silver lining.

well, it's Kamara not Kumara and ND in the end finished with the #1 class after bama had 5 kids fall off the wagon. also, corwin brown is the defensive coordinator and tenuta assistant head coach of the defense. i wouldn't say it's tenuta's system but he is contributing and once we get another wave of talent in and the current guys get more experience we should see upside. i also think the running game will continue to improve. i like cierre wood coming in and i think he can contribute as a freshman. we need DT's to wreak havoc in the backfield with penetration and that just isn't happening. once that does happen look out. we won't have to commit LB's all the time to get to the qb and we'll see more picks. and overall better results defending both the run and the pass.

 

[NDinL.A.]

I'd also like to bring up the point about thugs... Really how dare you call his kids thugs, do you know them? Have you followed his recruiting. Basically who are you to make a statement like that? Not saying that I know them either, but you can't label someone if you don't know them.

While our passing game hits new heights every game, our running game flounders because its been abandoned WAY too early. I am actually shocked that any top tier backs would come here seeing how Charlie dumps the run at the slightest hint of trouble.

In the end I do think that Davis, and some others, are light years ahead of Charlie as far as coaching, but Charlie is getting there.

If you're talking about my post, you need to read it again. You must be talking about another person's post. I never called any of NC's players thugs. All I said is that other programs are allowed to recruit thugs, while ND simply isn't. You can debate the word thug and its context forever; my uneducated def of a thug would probably be different than others. But the fact is that ND has a different recruiting pool than most universities, and certainly all elite programs.

Many of us have been around college football programs. I work very near USC's campus, and I know a lot of people who are intimate with their program. There are 'thugs' on that team. There are athletes on that team that ND couldn't recruit. There are also a lot of great guys on that team that I would want my nephews to look up to as well. But the thug element is there, whether i am a Catholic or not. That's the only program where I can intimately say those things. That's why I never mentioned any other schools besides USC.

As for the person who started this and continues to rag on me about 'eggs', hey, you wanted Charlie gone at the beginning of this thread, and when I asked you a simple question about how bad starting over would be, you duck it every time you respond. Having a descending opinion is great and makes for great debate, but back it up intelligently, as did SteveM. Ignoring questions from another perspective scores you no points in my book. Since you said it's dropped, I assume you can't answer the question, so I'll consider it dropped as well. Welcome aboard...

 

[SteveM]

The Universality of Male Idiocy

The Universality of Male Idiocy

If you're talking about my post, you need to read it again. You must be talking about another person's post. I never called any of NC's players thugs.

NDLeftCoast,

I understand the distinction you are making. I think the observation phork was making (and I concur) is the general "Weltanschauung" on the forum which is that ND is pristine and everybody else recruits "thugs". "Catholics versus Convicts" is the reactionary model.

And I know that you agree that life is more complicated than that.

It's funny. My brother played D-1A ball at Villanova in the 70's before they dropped the program. Catholic school, Philly Main Line. BC analogue.

But they had their share of knuckleheads who were there to play football. And yeah, those guys beat up people in bars and were morons on occasion.

But they were white guys from Catholic League schools. So they were less threatening. The cops gave them a pass. But they were still stupid.

There's nothing new under the sun.

SteveM

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Folks,

I am new to the board here and just want to introduce myself..... I am a life long Irish fan..... been to several home games and a few away games...... really just wondering how long ND is willing to put up with Charlie..... is it me or did he once mutter to someone that he would never lose to Sparty as long as he is coach @ ND?????

Then he talks smack about the boys from Kalamazoo...... can we just play ball and improve.... why all the smack from Charlie..... Jimmy is getting better.... more confident.....but when will we go on the road and win against a top ten team???? Gerry Faust doesn't look so bad anymore, neither does Davey or Willingham!!!!

Let's hear some input please!!!! Thanks in advance!!!!

Why is it always the new guys who come on and rip CW? You may not be a flamer....but then again......what's the difference? Besides...if you can't see the talent/depth difference now and three years ago, then somebody would make that statement.

 

[notredomer3]

What did He say about boys from kalamazoo?

 

[NDMontana]

A couple of things here:

1) When you start out every game trying to run the ball and you find yourself behind half way through the third quarter, averaging 2.0 yards per rush, what should you do? Keep doing what doesn't work? Conceed defeat?

CW has shown commitment to running the ball. He has acknowledged that elite teams have balance. He wants to run the ball. But he isn't going to keep running and running hoping that he has a couple of decent rushing games each year.

2) I saw an argument made that Bob Davie and Ty Willingham didn't lose more than five games in any season and are therefore better than Weis. Did you ever suppose that the sustained mediocrity the program suffered under those two aided in last season's debacle?

Last year was CW's third year so we should have had Willingham's last two recruiting classes as our juniors and seniors. If those classes were so good than where the fuck were they? Do you think CW wanted to go 3-9?

The fact is that Davie was left in good position by Lou Holtz. Davie left Willingham in a less than ideal but still tenable situation. Willingham's first two recruiting classes were pretty decent, thanks to the decent position he was left in but his mediocre performance is evidenced by his piss poor final two classes. CW inherited a decent class of juniors/seniors when he arrived and was then left with crap, in terms of upperclassmen, in 2007 & 2008. CW is turning this around with his own recruiting and coaching.

CW is closer to Pete Carrol than you think. Pete Carrol and Bob Stoops are the only guys, and it's grudgingly, that I admit re-built their programs from the ashes.

On the other hand there are guys, like Urban Meyer, who are left with pretty good talent by their predecessors. Les Miles comes to mind as well.

I'm willing to bet that Nick Saban struggles next year at Alabama....just a hunch. I think he'll have the same type of year that CW had last year.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Apparently I am nowhere near the level of competence or educated a fan as most of the posters here, (oh no, I just realized I was supposed to join goirish and mick2 on vacation... ahh heck) but my overriding feeling when Lou's team started looking sub-Lou-par, then onto Davies was that UND had started to think it could schedule the best every week and impose unrealistic standards on recruitables. ND (whoever that involved) thought they could have the cake and eat.

This schedule is realistic. I think somebody up there finally "gets it".

I respect Ty, but I thought he was a not so great hire. I wish him the best though.

(This was a rant of a TV ND fan.)

 

[renesikaffynd]

Mod: article removed, no link. if you want to post free articles, please have a link.

 

[renesikaffynd]

Mod: article removed; no link, and that is a preimum article.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

really just wondering how long ND is willing to put up with Charlie...

That all depends on how much he wins. If we end up with 7 wins this year, he stays.

is it me or did he once mutter to someone that he would never lose to Sparty as long as he is coach @ ND?????

Urban myth, sorry.

Then he talks smack about the boys from Kalamazoo......

Huh?

can we just play ball and improve.... why all the smack from Charlie.....

What are you talking about?

Gerry Faust doesn't look so bad anymore, neither does Davey or Willingham!!!!

Let's hear some input please!!!! Thanks in advance!!!!

My advice: put down the crack pipe.

 

[renesikaffynd]

how freaking cool im i huh?

 

[Sureal]

how freaking cool im i huh?

What's up with the novel posting?

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

renesi... Who wrote that first article from Chapel Hill? Wow. I think the writer reads this message board. Fired me up!

(Oops - reminder to self: When in Rome...)

Cranked me up!

 

[jonesman]

I have one question for all the CW sucks people. WHO DO YOU WANT AS A COACH IF CW IS FIRED??????? Give me your big savior, PLEASE!!!