SEC Open Thread

IRISHDODGER

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They were selling the confederate flag in their bookstore until 1983 and didn’t ban them from the stadium until 1997. The picture is also after the end of de jure desegregation. “Ole Miss” persisted in racist and segregationist policies long after Brown v. Board, James Meredith wasn’t allowed to attend a football game because of the fear that the fanbase would riot if a black man was in attendance.

That racism existed in the north is no defense of a University that openly courted racism and segregation longer than anywhere else.
You’re right, yet black parents still encouraged their sons to attend the university as student-athletes. So they had obviously moved on OR are they knowingly sending their 18 y/o kids to a racist Institution?
 

Irish du Nord

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You’re right, yet black parents still encouraged their sons to attend the university as student-athletes. So they had obviously moved on OR are they knowingly sending their 18 y/o kids to a racist Institution?
They sent them there while they were still selling confederate flags in the bookstore, I am confident that it’s the latter. Black parents were knowingly sending their kids to a racist institution when it integrated, that didn’t make it any less racist.

Also worth noting, Ole Miss has a lower black population than the other two major colleges in the state.
 

Bishop2b5

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They sent them there while they were still selling confederate flags in the bookstore, I am confident that it’s the latter. Black parents were knowingly sending their kids to a racist institution when it integrated, that didn’t make it any less racist.

Also worth noting, Ole Miss has a lower black population than the other two major colleges in the state.
I've always found this sort of over-the-top hatred of The South, SEC universities, and essentially all things southern to be puzzling. You and at least two others on IE seem incapable of even discussing anything about The South without getting angry and spewing vitriol and ridiculous misinformed stereotypes. I don't know if you realize it or not, but the Civil War has been over for a couple of years, slavery ended long ago, the North had slavery and segregation too, and the people involved in all that stuff are dead and gone. Who are you angry at?

You're angry at a state for something not a single one of its current residents had anything to do with? You're angry at a college that was racist and segregated several decades ago? None of those people are still in power and very few of them are still alive. You do know northern schools were mostly segregated until just a few years before Ole Miss or any of the other southern schools desegregated, right? Notre Dame admitted its first black student in 1944, less than 20 years before Ole Miss did.

Being angry at buildings or land or a region or an institution because of something that happened decades ago (and which your favorite buildings and land and regions and institutions were guilty of too shortly before) is just sort of weird and hard to understand. Who or what are you angry at?
 

Irish2155

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They were selling the confederate flag in their bookstore until 1983 and didn’t ban them from the stadium until 1997. The picture is also after the end of de jure desegregation. “Ole Miss” persisted in racist and segregationist policies long after Brown v. Board, James Meredith wasn’t allowed to attend a football game because of the fear that the fanbase would riot if a black man was in attendance.

That racism existed in the north is no defense of a University that openly courted racism and segregation longer than anywhere else.
Sounds a lot like my second high school here in Indy. Their school flag was the Rebel Flag up until 1997. I remember it well because that was the year that I transferred in. There were only 2 black kids in the whole school who were both Frosh, and they both also transferred out their Soph year. And maybe about 10 years ago or so they changed their name from the Rebels to the Royals.
 

Notre Dame Joe

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They sent them there while they were still selling confederate flags in the bookstore, I am confident that it’s the latter. Black parents were knowingly sending their kids to a racist institution when it integrated, that didn’t make it any less racist.

Also worth noting, Ole Miss has a lower black population than the other two major colleges in the state.
The idea that the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol is very recent. Even a few black Southerners displayed it in the 20th Century.
 

Bishop2b5

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The idea that the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol is very recent. Even a few black Southerners displayed it in the 20th Century.
I've made the same point. When I was a kid in the 60s & 70s, it wasn't viewed as racist, but instead as a symbol of regional pride or rebellious independence or something along those lines. I remember a black friend having one in his car. Nobody I knew thought of it as racist. It was a Southern pride thing. The "symbol of racism" is, as you point out, a much more recent development.
 

jerseyborn1971

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It is quite literally the battle flag of a short lived "country" that waged war against the Union for the purpose of preserving the institution of slavery. If people used it for other regions, that's on them for being dopes. It was created as a symbol of something even worse then racism, the enslavement of a race of people.
 

NDWarrior

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I've always found this sort of over-the-top hatred of The South, SEC universities, and essentially all things southern to be puzzling. You and at least two others on IE seem incapable of even discussing anything about The South without getting angry and spewing vitriol and ridiculous misinformed stereotypes. I don't know if you realize it or not, but the Civil War has been over for a couple of years, slavery ended long ago, the North had slavery and segregation too, and the people involved in all that stuff are dead and gone. Who are you angry at?

You're angry at a state for something not a single one of its current residents had anything to do with? You're angry at a college that was racist and segregated several decades ago? None of those people are still in power and very few of them are still alive. You do know northern schools were mostly segregated until just a few years before Ole Miss or any of the other southern schools desegregated, right? Notre Dame admitted its first black student in 1944, less than 20 years before Ole Miss did.

Being angry at buildings or land or a region or an institution because of something that happened decades ago (and which your favorite buildings and land and regions and institutions were guilty of too shortly before) is just sort of weird and hard to understand. Who or what are you angry at?

I know we have a Politics thread, but since you brought it up, and you know I like to disagree with you ;)

I don't know about hatred, I would just say, focusing more on what a number of U.S. historians write about all the time, that the Confederacy and their way of thinking has NEVER been vanquished after they were defeated by The Union in the Civil War, and despite that yes, there's been legal and integration progress, the deep South sentiment, which the flags/symbols embody, even if some of them are more recent, is still rampant in the South. The laws, their enforcement, and the institutions that reflect this sentiment, all still exist.

And that is very much a contributing factor to the mess we're in right now as a country, no doubt.
 

Irish#1

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Sounds a lot like my second high school here in Indy. Their school flag was the Rebel Flag up until 1997. I remember it well because that was the year that I transferred in. There were only 2 black kids in the whole school who were both Frosh, and they both also transferred out their Soph year. And maybe about 10 years ago or so they changed their name from the Rebels to the Royals.
Changed in 2021.
 

Punky

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When I was young, my dad took a job with an oil company when he got out of the army. Moved from the Chicago suburbs to Houston in the early 60s. I definitely remember George Wallace in Alabama and MLK and the civil rights stuff going on. It was the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, lots of events commemorating the Confederacy were happening. I do not remember the Stars and Bars then as being anything but a racist symbol of the Lost Cause and all that, and my parents were of the same belief. Lots of tensions between white and black students even in my Catholic grade school. My mom would always make comments that she could not believe what she was seeing, and she had worked as a nurse on the south side of Chicago for a number of years and seen all the racial crap that went on there, so she had a comparison. We left there in 1969 and moved back to Illinois. She hated Texas until the day she died. I've never been back, but my brother went to Houston on a business trip a few years ago, said it felt a lot different, but then again it was several decades later.
 
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Irish du Nord

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I've always found this sort of over-the-top hatred of The South, SEC universities, and essentially all things southern to be puzzling. You and at least two others on IE seem incapable of even discussing anything about The South without getting angry and spewing vitriol and ridiculous misinformed stereotypes. I don't know if you realize it or not, but the Civil War has been over for a couple of years, slavery ended long ago, the North had slavery and segregation too, and the people involved in all that stuff are dead and gone. Who are you angry at?

You're angry at a state for something not a single one of its current residents had anything to do with? You're angry at a college that was racist and segregated several decades ago? None of those people are still in power and very few of them are still alive. You do know northern schools were mostly segregated until just a few years before Ole Miss or any of the other southern schools desegregated, right? Notre Dame admitted its first black student in 1944, less than 20 years before Ole Miss did.

Being angry at buildings or land or a region or an institution because of something that happened decades ago (and which your favorite buildings and land and regions and institutions were guilty of too shortly before) is just sort of weird and hard to understand. Who or what are you angry at?
The north did not have segregation in the same way the south did and it’s disingenuous to suggest that it did. But you are mischaracterizing my position here. I am not upset at the University of Mississippi for the Civil War, nor am I upset about it for segregation (though the university itself did acquit itself poorly in desegregation), I am upset that as a University and athletic department they continue to operate with racist imagery and a racist and anti-American mascot. I’m critical of the last 40-70 years where the Universitt of Mississippi itself engaged in glorification of the Confederacy. Something that isn’t true of other southern universities.
 

TorontoGold

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The TLDR on this discussion: The year is 2067, grandson just graduated from Warren Jeffs Memorial. Wow, you guys are really sensitive, when my grandson played for the Wives he wasn't advocating for any funny business! Some people just look to him as a symbol of good old fashioned family values!
 

Bishop2b5

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The north did not have segregation in the same way the south did and it’s disingenuous to suggest that it did. But you are mischaracterizing my position here. I am not upset at the University of Mississippi for the Civil War, nor am I upset about it for segregation (though the university itself did acquit itself poorly in desegregation), I am upset that as a University and athletic department they continue to operate with racist imagery and a racist and anti-American mascot. I’m critical of the last 40-70 years where the Universitt of Mississippi itself engaged in glorification of the Confederacy. Something that isn’t true of other southern universities.
What racist imagery and anti-American mascot are they continuing to use? They dropped Colonel Rebel more than 15 years ago. I'm not an Ole Miss fan and don't really keep up with what they do, so I genuinely don't know what else you're referring to.
 

Irish du Nord

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What racist imagery and anti-American mascot are they continuing to use? They dropped Colonel Rebel more than 15 years ago. I'm not an Ole Miss fan and don't really keep up with what they do, so I genuinely don't know what else you're referring to.
“Rebels”
 

Irish2155

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Changed in 2021.
Seems like yesterday

I could be fact checked about this but outside of my best friend’s sister (see the Pat Kuntz/IU National Championship thread) those two Frosh were the first two black students to ever attend RHS.
 
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Bishop2b5

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Maybe because ya'll say "The South" (capital T), Bishop.
That antebellum term implies a unfied block and it comes with a lot of baggage, as you are well aware.

Maybe say: the southern US, or some southern states or the former slave states...

(PS - that's a Texas "ya'll", different animal.)
The South is correct for the same reason we capitalize New England, The Mountain West, The Great Plains, or other such distinct regions.
 

Bluto

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The idea that the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol is very recent. Even a few black Southerners displayed it in the 20th Century.
This is complete bullshit.

Segregationists readopted it as a symbol of the lost cause and as a reaction to the civil rights movement in the 50’s. All those monuments to a bunch of traitorous shit bags who supported slavery were intentional as well.

Blows my mind that it’s even controversial to want to do away with the monuments to and symbols of the confederacy ie the biggest bunch of traitors in the nations history who also fought in defense of chattel slavery.
 
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Bluto

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You really are a ___ (I’ll let you fill in the gap…) if that “offends” you.

Are you upset with UNLV as well or does that not count?

As someone with a blatantly obvious first and last name of Irish descent, should “Fighting Irish” offend me?
Did the Irish fight in defense of slavery?
 

Bluto

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I've made the same point. When I was a kid in the 60s & 70s, it wasn't viewed as racist, but instead as a symbol of regional pride or rebellious independence or something along those lines. I remember a black friend having one in his car. Nobody I knew thought of it as racist. It was a Southern pride thing. The "symbol of racism" is, as you point out, a much more recent development.
Couple photos of anti segregation rallies/protests in the South in the 60’s. Confederate flag definitely not associated with racists.IMG_9535.jpegIMG_9541.jpeg

IMG_9536.jpeg
 
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Bishop2b5

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View attachment 3062717Some of you all need to read a fucking history book and I’m beginning to think Bishop didn’t actually live in the South in the 60’s. Lol.
You need to understand that The South is not, nor has it ever been, one homogenized, every place and everybody is the same, sort of place, just as every other region of the US isn't either. As a kid in the 60s, all I know was what I experienced in my part of the world, and it wasn't like what you depict in the pictures. No doubt some people did think of the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, but most didn't in that era. You have consistently viewed the world through a prism of racism since you've been on IE, and it often warps your perspective. You seem to think EVERYTHING is about race. Most of us don't see the world that way. You have an issue that's yours. Stop projecting it on others. The rest of us aren't obsessed with race.
 

Jimmy3Putt

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The KKK was started in Indiana. It was just as prevalent in rural northern Midwest states as it was in the south. Just because a racist organization uses a preexisting symbol as its own, doesn’t make that symbol theirs.

The confederate flag is one of rebellion and refusal to give in their rights.

They want you to think about race in everything. It’s how they keep us divided while they steal everything.
 

ColoradoIrish

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The KKK was started in Indiana. It was just as prevalent in rural northern Midwest states as it was in the south. Just because a racist organization uses a preexisting symbol as its own, doesn’t make that symbol theirs.

The confederate flag is one of rebellion and refusal to give in their rights.

They want you to think about race in everything. It’s how they keep us divided while they steal everything.
The first iteration of the Klan was started in in Tennessee by former Confederate generals. The following iterations were formed in Georgia.

The KKK didn't become prevalent in the North until the second wave of the KKK when the group became associated with Protestants. That's when the group became more anti Catholic, anti semitic and white Christian nationalist.
 

MNIrishman

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The KKK was started in Indiana. It was just as prevalent in rural northern Midwest states as it was in the south. Just because a racist organization uses a preexisting symbol as its own, doesn’t make that symbol theirs.

The confederate flag is one of rebellion and refusal to give in their rights.

They want you to think about race in everything. It’s how they keep us divided while they steal everything.
Nope, it was founded in Pulaski, Tennessee ---just north of the Alabama border. Citation: Birth of the Ku Klux Klan | History | Research Starters | EBSCO Research
 
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