'23 MO CB Christian Gray (Notre Dame Signee)

[mrmcgrail]

Your takes are trash

 

[Irish du Nord]

Who are Bailey and Motte? I have never heard of either of these people.

Motte-and-bailey fallacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PutuporShutup]

“They're going to attack us offensively just like USC did, they have the playmakers outside and a good QB to do that.”

“IMO they have 2 WRs better than Lane but not as good as Lemon.”

“I expect they try to exploit gray in the mid game on a lot of slants and crossers where it's more difficult to have safety help when in man.”

“Teams with multiple good WRs and an oline good enough to give their qb some time to make field throws can attack nd. Pitts oline may be good enough to do that and I think they have enough WRs and speed where nd will have gray and maybe Zackery in situations they can get exploited”

None of these things were accurate.

Where I was wrong, and talked about it leading up to the game is if nd is able to get after their oline and it doesn’t hold up, mason could struggle. That’s what happened. Wasn’t that gray played great, nd got a ton of pressure as I think you’ve posted.

Ash also had a great plan to protect gray

 

[mrmcgrail]

There is so much nuance in coverage like he plays the field of course he is going to have more help he has more area to cover. Yesterday they mixed in a good amount of zone. Is that to help Gray or to confuse the pitt QB which it did. They baited that QB into so many throws and Gray had a really really good game. He has had problems against the elite of the elite on OSU USC and a&m and a&m was a lot of bad safety and nickel play more so than him

 

[PutuporShutup]

Hahaha you just are full of shit I played at uw-platteville I don't hide behind some bullshit of a hidden school and who I am my last name is in my handle. Also last year when you almost got banned it was for freeman not being a good coach and riding pretty much the coattails of Golden. Where is that narrative now buddy?

Putting who you are on a public message board is brilliant!

 

[jprue24]

Who are Bailey and Motte? I have never heard of either of these people.

It's an arguing tactic/fallacy. Say something outrageous/difficult to defend (like a bailey) and when challenged, retreat to an easier position to defend (motte)

 

[PutuporShutup]

There is so much nuance in coverage like he plays the field of course he is going to have more help he has more area to cover. Yesterday they mixed in a good amount of zone. Is that to help Gray or to confuse the pitt QB which it did. They baited that QB into so many throws and Gray had a really really good game. He has had problems against the elite of the elite on OSU USC and a&m and a&m was a lot of bad safety and nickel play more so than him

I haven’t re watched but in person it looked like ash was bringing a lot of different pressures and letting traore get after it funneling mason up and to the boundary side. It didn’t give him the time to survey the field side other than first drive. It can expose you to qb runs so nd did a good job in other spots ensuring he wasn’t able to run for many first downs.

 

[Irish du Nord]

If the time has come to pile onto PutUp, I think he was the one saying Burnham was useless and slow too when he played injured…

 

[IrishLax]

15 months ago many, maybe even you were discussing him as a potential first rounder. now it’s “he may make an nfl roster one day IF he’s healthy”. Hmmmm

He’s so far from an extremely good college player. He’s an average P4 corner at best when he’s at his best.

I had no problem with gray with effort until usc 25, he flat out gave up effort and focus wise that night. Banged up or not, no excuse. At least in 2024 he was battling but just getting beat. This year, His injuries were so bad he miraculously went from not being able to play on Nov 8th, to not even being on an injury report nov 10th!!! It’s so obvious they wanted to mentally re set him. Because, even though he’s not great, he’s better than Zackery and Hobbs and ND needs him to be serviceable.

I don't know if the coaches would agree with that. He was playing through injuries in that game, and I think they basically told him "figure it out because we aren't putting a freshman out there"... and he gutted it out and came up with a key interception when USC was driving to take the lead in the 3rd quarter. A lot of this is speculation, no one knows for certain what goes on behind the scenes, but there was a lot of public and private commentary that he was barely able to suit up for that game and it was a miracle he finished it.

Anyways, all of this reminds me of a decade ago Matthias Farley playing on one good shoulder and people thinking he was "soft" or "low effort" for bad tackling... or him flat out refusing to stick his nose in there and hit people. He played like total ass and people were constantly calling for him to be benched. And then he went on and looked great once he got healthy again and played 8 years in the NFL. I don't think Christian Gray is that level of player, but I do think the judgment of him is colored by him being quite hobbled but asked to play through it.

 

[Dale]

It's an arguing tactic/fallacy. Say something outrageous/difficult to defend (like a bailey) and when challenged, retreat to an easier position to defend (motte)

Well that’s Mr. ShutUp to a T.

 

[jprue24]

Well that’s Mr. ShutUp to a T.

It's a lot of people on message boards/social media. It gets attention and seeing him do it all the time is why I told him to gtfo of here when he did it to me.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

Putting who you are on a public message board is brilliant!

Do you think I should take my pic down?

 

[mrmcgrail]

Yes because the Internet is a place where everyone hides their identity in 2025 haha how old are you

 

[mrmcgrail]

Haha not you my boy putup

 

[BeatSC]

After reading these almost feels like some ganging up on one guy. We’re all ND fans here right? Many of these guys are also getting paid now and others can be quite cocky and full of themselves when things go their way. Most things should be in the rearview mirror and as one of the big gripers on here after a win we should move on. Hope Gray kills it out there but if he doesn’t there will be some bitching. Let’s hope we get out to early leads in the next two games and win by 30+.

 

[jprue24]

After reading these almost feels like some ganging up on one guy. We’re all ND fans here right? Many of these guys are also getting paid now and others can be quite cocky and full of themselves when things go their way. Most things should be in the rearview mirror and as one of the big gripers on here after a win we should move on. Hope Gray kills it out there but if he doesn’t there will be some bitching. Let’s hope we get out to early leads in the next two games and win by 30+.

Nah, I think it's pretty fucked up to question Gray's character. Talk about the players' play all day (I took huge shits on RL's QB flaws), but their effort? I think you should have solid proof if you are going to make the claim someone gets benched for not trying and that asshole doesn't.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Nah, I think it's pretty fucked up to question Gray's character. Talk about the players' play all day (I took huge shits on RL's QB flaws), but their effort? I think you should have solid proof if you are going to make the claim someone gets benched for not trying and that asshole doesn't.

Umm, the proof is in the darn game film vs usc. Watch him half assing it multiple times. Freeman himself said he had to get on him and chew him out. Freeman was then asked what he said, and he wouldn’t divulge that. Wonder why.

I’ve never questioned his effort other than that usc game. Everything else has just been poor play I’ve hit on.

I’m just glad that his issues were all 100% physical and he was able to get with Joe Rogan’s stem cell doctor on November 9th so he could be completely healed on the 10th.

 

[mrmcgrail]

“I reminded him, ‘Nobody feels bad, man,'” Freeman said. “‘You got to do your job and play with the proper technique. Do I believe you can do it? Absolutely, but you got to go do it. Nobody has sympathy.’

“[He] has to play with better technique. He has to.”

“That’s where a lot of his issues came from,” Freeman said. “Injuries caused him to play with poor technique in certain situations.”

“The thing about Christian is he’s such a tough, tough individual that he never wants to come out of the game, never wants to tell somebody how he’s truly feeling,” Freeman said.
We know he’s banged up without him even saying it.”

Yeah it was effort that was what freeman was getting on him for

 

[PutuporShutup]

“I reminded him, ‘Nobody feels bad, man,'” Freeman said. “‘You got to do your job and play with the proper technique. Do I believe you can do it? Absolutely, but you got to go do it. Nobody has sympathy.’

“[He] has to play with better technique. He has to.”

“That’s where a lot of his issues came from,” Freeman said. “Injuries caused him to play with poor technique in certain situations.”

“The thing about Christian is he’s such a tough, tough individual that he never wants to come out of the game, never wants to tell somebody how he’s truly feeling,” Freeman said.
We know he’s banged up without him even saying it.”

Yeah it was effort that was what freeman was getting on him for

I’m going to make an assumption that you can read and have been around football. If you really think the word technique how he uses it actually means some physical technique and not effort and focus then you’re even further off from understanding the game than I thought.

You really think freeman chewed out gray for not using proper technique? lol. He was loafing all over the field and throwing his hands up like it was someone else’s fault. Maybe the technique was to actually put one foot in-front of the other with velocity instead of (as one person put it, I can’t take credit) running like a baby giraffe.

Freeman will always protect his players and coaches to the media, as he should, but it’s obvious what was going on.

 

[jprue24]

Umm, the proof is in the darn game film vs usc. Watch him half assing it multiple times. Freeman himself said he had to get on him and chew him out. Freeman was then asked what he said, and he wouldn’t divulge that. Wonder why.

I’ve never questioned his effort other than that usc game. Everything else has just been poor play I’ve hit on.

I’m just glad that his issues were all 100% physical and he was able to get with Joe Rogan’s stem cell doctor on November 9th so he could be completely healed on the 10th.

Do you just do this reflexively? Try to change what an argument/discussion your having with someone is about?

One million percent. Yesterday proves it.

I never said freeman lied, and I don’t think he did. Freeman said gray was a little banged up and they needed to get him right. Everyone is banged up that plays as much as he does. He absolutely could have played the last 2 games but wasn’t needed. He did need to get right, but get mentally right was the biggest issue.

It’s obvious what ash began doing much more of after the first series for Pitt to protect the field a bit. Gray got smoked first series and Pitt should have had a td. Luckily their wr dropped it. It’ll be interesting to see if ash does more of that or saves it vs teams with more than one good wr.

This is you not remembering what your reasoning was and trying to deny it. You go on to soften your original claim.

I’m sure the excuse given will be resting nagging injuries. I’d bet though this is a case where yeah he’s sore but not injured and the staff wants to teach a lesson that his lack of effort many times in the usc game is unacceptable so you will not be playing in the BC game. A game they don’t need him. Maybe the effort was in part due to nagging injuries, but it doesn’t matter, if you’re out there it has to be 100%.

You said he got benched because of effort and the staff was teaching him a lesson and if they said it was about injury, is was an excuse. This comment is what I responded to and asking you about.

Was he on the injury report earlier in the week (don’t think he was)? If he was and I missed it I’ll apologize for my comment. If he wasn’t this is absolutely a coaching decision due to a player not performing and living up to the standard of effort and being locked in. He was worse usc 25 than usc 24 and I didn’t think that was possible.

Freeman needs to get him mentally right for Pittsburgh and beyond because we don’t have another option shockingly.

Coaches are always playing mind games.

In this response to Dale asking if Freeman was lying in the press conference, you claim Freeman was dishonest about the injuries.
Why, because Gray wasn't on the injury report? Weird use of the injury report considering you (and many others) have said basically everyone is hurt by that point. Since the injury report didn't, and still doesn't, have basically everyone on it, how can you be certain Freeman was being dishonest about the way Gray's injuries affected his play?

I know you have mentioned his mental health and I think him sitting due to that is a reasonable opinion with evidence. You also say "mental health is real" (I absolutely agree), yet claim the staff is teaching him a lesson. If he is having mental health struggles with confidence, teaching him a lesson is fucking stupid.


Never mind the fact that Gray sat 2 games and not 1. That doesn't help your bet that he was benched to be taught a lesson.

 

[GoIrish41]

I’m going to make an assumption that you can read and have been around football. If you really think the word technique how he uses it actually means some physical technique and not effort and focus then you’re even further off from understanding the game than I thought.

You really think freeman chewed out gray for not using proper technique? lol. He was loafing all over the field and throwing his hands up like it was someone else’s fault. Maybe the technique was to actually put one foot in-front of the other with velocity instead of (as one person put it, I can’t take credit) running like a baby giraffe.

Freeman will always protect his players and coaches to the media, as he should, but it’s obvious what was going on.

Good thing there are smart football guys like you to break down what he really said after we all heard him say it. Or is it that in addition to Gray being lazy, Freeman is a liar. You are really stepping out on some flimsy limbs to avoid admitting you had a shitty take. Comically stubborn!

 

[PutuporShutup]

Do you just do this reflexively? Try to change what an argument/discussion your having with someone is about?


This is you not remembering what your reasoning was and trying to deny it. You go on to soften your original claim.


You said he got benched because of effort and the staff was teaching him a lesson and if they said it was about injury, is was an excuse. This comment is what I responded to and asking you about.

In this response to Dale asking if Freeman was lying in the press conference, you claim Freeman was dishonest about the injuries.
Why, because Gray wasn't on the injury report? Weird use of the injury report considering you (and many others) have said basically everyone is hurt by that point. Since the injury report didn't, and still doesn't, have basically everyone on it, how can you be certain Freeman was being dishonest about the way Gray's injuries affected his play?

I know you have mentioned his mental health and I think him sitting due to that is a reasonable opinion with evidence. You also say "mental health is real" (I absolutely agree), yet claim the staff is teaching him a lesson. If he is having mental health struggles with confidence, teaching him a lesson is fucking stupid.


Never mind the fact that Gray sat 2 games and not 1. That doesn't help your bet that he was benched to be taught a lesson.

I’m very confident the message to gray was along the lines of “you’re not playing unless you’re locked in and giving 100% every snap, and we’re committed to helping you get back to that over next few weeks”. I said it before the BC game he would probably sit, said he would probably sit navy as well and be back for Pitt . It’s not rocket science.

When I say “teach a lesson” it’s not to sit him in a corner by himself and don’t play him. It’s work with him to get his mental focus and clarity right, get him to practice right, and be prepared completely for a game that most likely was going to be Pitt.

 

[mrmcgrail]

I can easily read I think freeman meant that no one out feels sorry for you for being hurt you are out there and you need to play with technique and not try and guess and jump a route or be grabby because you can't physically get it done. Yes that's what I believe I don't believe for one second it was an effort thing. I have been around football most of my life a coach isn't going to put you out on the field for more snaps than any defensive player if he thinks you aren't putting in effort.

 

[PutuporShutup]

Good thing there are smart football guys like you to break down what he really said after we all heard him say it. Or is it that in addition to Gray being lazy, Freeman is a liar. You are really stepping out on some flimsy limbs to avoid admitting you had a shitty take. Comically stubborn!

You heard him say it on the sideline?

You ever heard a HC chew out a player for basic technique in a game? You ever read Kelly’s or sabans or smarts lips when they lit players up? Freeman does a good job covering his mouth.

When Rees got on pyne, was he chewing him out saying use proper technique? Ha

I would bet my house when freeman chewed gray out he never used the word technique.

 

[mrmcgrail]

I think he chewed him out for getting a bunch of pi penalties which is him saying play with proper technique stop grabbing. I don't think for one second it was anything to do with a guy not playing hard. I have been chewed out for making plenty of mistakes. My sophomore year I was a gunner on punts and I took a bad angle and let the guy get outside of me and got the fuck chewed out of me. It had zero to do with effort hahaha like dude you are just an idiot who is dying on some hypothetical

 

[ND88]

Bottomline:

Christian Gray is going to end up with a National Championship, a degree from the University of Notre Dame, respect from his coaches and teammates, a voice back home having made his family and community proud, and hopefully a decent opportunity at the NFL, and if not, a great career doing essential work built on some of that effort and determination we have witnessed him do, and that's just on the field.

 

[PutuporShutup]

I can easily read I think freeman meant that no one out feels sorry for you for being hurt you are out there and you need to play with technique and not try and guess and jump a route or be grabby because you can't physically get it done. Yes that's what I believe I don't believe for one second it was an effort thing. I have been around football most of my life a coach isn't going to put you out on the field for more snaps than any defensive player if he thinks you aren't putting in effort.

It wasn’t every play, and he had almost no other choice because it’s not Zackery or Hobbs right now.

Bottom line, I don’t think gray is that good, but only that usc game did I see an effort issue, so I don’t think that’s his nature. ND needs him to be solid this year. Especially if we play Ohio State, bama, or Georgia in cfp.

Cree Thomas got some reps vs Pitt, physically, he by far looks the part more than Zackery or Hobbs. Looks only take you so far, so hopefully he develops.

 

[PutuporShutup]

I can easily read I think freeman meant that no one out feels sorry for you for being hurt you are out there and you need to play with technique and not try and guess and jump a route or be grabby because you can't physically get it done. Yes that's what I believe I don't believe for one second it was an effort thing. I have been around football most of my life a coach isn't going to put you out on the field for more snaps than any defensive player if he thinks you aren't putting in effort.

It wasn’t every play, and he had almost no other choice because it’s not Zackery or Hobbs right now.

Bottom line, I don’t think gray is that good, but only that usc game did I see an effort issue, so I don’t think that’s his nature. ND needs him to be solid this year. Especially if we play Ohio State, bama, or Georgia in cfp.

Cree Thomas got some reps vs Pitt, physically, he by far looks the part more than Zackery or Hobbs. Looks only take you so far, so hopefully he develops.

 

[Dale]

There’s no point anymore, Mr. P&S can stare down the barrel of direct contradictions and false information and still say he’s right. Just plan on some post about Gray later this week and we’ll do this again.

 

[DillonHall]

There’s no point anymore, Mr. P&S can stare down the barrel of direct contradictions and false information and still say he’s right. Just plan on some post about Gray later this week and we’ll do this again.

Just be grateful that you don't have to associate with him in real life