COVID-19

[TorontoGold]

Yup, messy like I said.

Chicago raid: 40-60 detained, 37 confirmed illegal.
LA raids: ~5200 detained, 4163 confirmed illegal.

~75-80% of detainees are guilty. Which means 20-25% are innocent. Messy. But there is no perfect solution.

These raids have been effective at detaining illegals, but innocent civilians are also getting targeted, mostly due to proximity. Gray, like I said.

But many of the people complaining about this also supported policies that let these illegals into the US in the first place

Actions have consequences.



Exactly like you did with the shot mandates. Pot, kettle.



Toronto says that as long as they can return to normal that the temporary inconvenience doesn't matter. So, you disagree with him then?



Didn't see you complain when constitutional rights were violated during COVID. What does that say about you?



Because it is a fully fictitious and hyperbolic example that ICE would assault bluto without reasonable suspicion while shopping at Home Depot.

Even when conducting mass raids, they were still at least 75% accurate. In what world would they specifically target a US citizen shopping with his family, if this citizen is not affiliated with illegals, in proximity to illegals, or reasonably suspicious of illegal entry?

I told you I wanted to start paying rent. I can’t keep living for free.

I know you’re not antivax, it’s just you like to point out the constitutional issues of vaccine mandates, alternative medicinal options, media censorship of those alternatives, the purported medical impacts of taking the vaccines, the perceived injustice faced by those in the antivax community - to see someone who is not antivax like you say, claim to now be ok with something that’s 75% effective is……ironic.

 

[ndfanatic78]

I told you I wanted to start paying rent. I can’t keep living for free.

I know you’re not antivax, it’s just you like to point out the constitutional issues of vaccine mandates, alternative medicinal options, media censorship of those alternatives, the purported medical impacts of taking the vaccines, the perceived injustice faced by those in the antivax community - to see someone who is not antivax like you say, claim to now be ok with something that’s 75% effective is……ironic.

The funny thing is I very much agree with Sixstar on his COVID vaccine data and there are legit questions about Vaccine injuries. There are legit concerns that include more side defects than the supposed link to autism, which I do not see a lot or correlating evidence for.

I do not get how anyone thinks the handling of undocumented immigrants the way we are is anything but inhumane and disgusting.
The over whelming majority of these people are fleeing political persecution by govts the US installed and supports.

The only reason Venezuelans are coming here in droves is because the international monetary war that has been declared on them. Remove the economic warfare and the immigration will drop to null.

 

[GATTACA!]

The funny thing is I very much agree with Sixstar on his COVID vaccine data and there are legit questions about Vaccine injuries. There are legit concerns that include more side defects than the supposed link to autism, which I do not see a lot or correlating evidence for.

I do not get how anyone thinks the handling of undocumented immigrants the way we are is anything but inhumane and disgusting.
The over whelming majority of these people are fleeing political persecution by govts the US installed and supports.

The only reason Venezuelans are coming here in droves is because the international monetary war that has been declared on them. Remove the economic warfare and the immigration will drop to null.

Or remove the economic incentives for them to come here by actually enforcing laws against businesses hiring illegals. Neither side is interested in that though of course 🙄.

 

[sixstar]

I told you I wanted to start paying rent. I can’t keep living for free.

I know you’re not antivax, it’s just you like to point out the constitutional issues of vaccine mandates, alternative medicinal options, media censorship of those alternatives, the purported medical impacts of taking the vaccines, the perceived injustice faced by those in the antivax community - to see someone who is not antivax like you say, claim to now be ok with something that’s 75% effective is……ironic.

Where did I say I was okay with it?
I said it was messy and gray, and that I see both sides.

Why is reading comprehension such a struggle here?

If someone is going to assert a point, they should be consistent. Goirish41 had no issue with unvaxxed getting rights stripped. So, it's ironic that he cares so deeply here.

The funny thing is I very much agree with Sixstar on his COVID vaccine data and there are legit questions about Vaccine injuries. There are legit concerns that include more side defects than the supposed link to autism, which I do not see a lot or correlating evidence for.

I do not get how anyone thinks the handling of undocumented immigrants the way we are is anything but inhumane and disgusting.

The thing about you is that you listen, and if you disagree, you have a reason for it. And I respect you for that.

We don't have to agree on everything. I'm a conservative moderate, so I find myself at odds with people across the political spectrum on certain issues.

The over whelming majority of these people are fleeing political persecution by govts the US installed and supports.

According to Pew, 19% of illegal immigrants claimed asylum from political persecution, and only 5% have been able to provide proof.

That would be an overwhelming minority.

The only reason Venezuelans are coming here in droves is because the international monetary war that has been declared on them. Remove the economic warfare and the immigration will drop to null.

Mostly agree, but this is an oversimplification. It would significantly reduce, but not eliminate migration.

Here, 19% of Venezuelan migrants claim escaping political persecution, not just economics:

Venezuelan Immigrants in the United States

The Venezuelan immigrant population in the United States has grown quickly, amid a spiraling economic and political crisis in Venezuela that resulted in the exodus of millions of Venezuelans, most remaining in Latin America. About half of Venezuelan immigrants in the United States live in...

www.migrationpolicy.org

Democratic reform is still needed.

 

[ndfanatic78]

Where did I say I was okay with it?
I said it was messy and gray, and that I see both sides.

Why is reading comprehension such a struggle here?

If someone is going to assert a point, they should be consistent. Goirish41 had no issue with unvaxxed getting rights stripped. So, it's ironic that he cares so deeply here.



The thing about you is that you listen, and if you disagree, you have a reason for it. And I respect you for that.

We don't have to agree on everything. I'm a conservative moderate, so I find myself at odds with people across the political spectrum on certain issues.



According to Pew, 19% of illegal immigrants claimed asylum from political persecution, and only 5% have been able to provide proof.

That would be an overwhelming minority.



Mostly agree, but this is an oversimplification. It would significantly reduce, but not eliminate migration.

Here, 19% of Venezuelan migrants claim escaping political persecution, not just economics:

Venezuelan Immigrants in the United States

The Venezuelan immigrant population in the United States has grown quickly, amid a spiraling economic and political crisis in Venezuela that resulted in the exodus of millions of Venezuelans, most remaining in Latin America. About half of Venezuelan immigrants in the United States live in...

www.migrationpolicy.org

Democratic reform is still needed.

I don’t care what pew says when we stop the overwhelming amount of these people from even filling for political asylum or deny their claims.

No one leaves their country to go to a country they don’t know, don’t speak the language, and have no connection to their culture. These people are coming here because they have no other choice. It’s make a grueling journey of hundreds of miles wher the chance of death is high but still less then what they face in their own countries.

Then you have jack ass JD Vance saying these people don’t even deserve health care. What the fuck kind of Christian says that shit? I gave these idiots months to prove everyone wrong that they aren’t what people were saying they were. They have proven they are the fascist, racist, misogynist, oligarchs evryone knew. Bobby and Tulsi are now covered with fleas for joining this Motley Crue of hate and division.

Again the overwhelming majority do not commit crimes and actually contribute to our economy, yet are getting swept up in this stuff. After all this we will not see any significant drop in crime rate other than the rate that was already dropping and now look at what all this cost the people.

We also aren’t seeing a rise in employment of citizens, in fact we are seeing an increase of unemployment.

I must take a few days from this thread now as I can’t debate this anymore as it is taking a toll on my soul that so many people can make so many excuses to persecute people because of human constructs and nothing more. Peace be with all you and may all of you fill your hearts with love. The only true purpose of life and Go Irish!!!!

 

[Bluto]

Strawman. I didn't compare the two. I said that in both cases, good citizens could get punished for the behavior of bad people. Read what I'm actually saying before responding.



Nobody said that, including the supreme court.



In reality, it's a nuanced situation. You just refuse to see the other side of it because you feel attacked.

Illegal immigrants are illegal, and by law, should be deported. If they want to be here, they can follow the lawful process, and there will be no problems. A majority of illegal immigrants that entered during the last admin are Latino, and California received more illegals than any other state. Those are indisputable facts.

So ICE is targeting California. It is a logical response.



Show them your ID and continue shopping.



Nobody is advocating for abhorrent treatment of citizens. They are advocating for expedited deportation of illegals.

Dude you’re grasping at straws and kinda full of shit.

“Show me your papers”.

Should we start rounding up and detaining Jewish Americans because of Jeffery Epstein, Bernie Madoff and Israeli espionage on the US?

How about white, 20 something males given their propensity to commit mass shootings?

What you are defending is the ultimate slippery slope.

There’s no “nuance” here.

 

[sixstar]

Dude you’re grasping at straws and kinda full of shit.

What did I say that isn't grounded in reality?

Should we start rounding up and detaining Jewish Americans because of Jeffery Epstein, Bernie Madoff and Israeli espionage on the US?

Only if there is reasonable suspicion they are guilty, as is REQUIRED by federal code for ICE to operate.

What you are defending is the ultimate slippery slope.

The funny thing is that I'm not even defending anything. I'm just providing context, but you are so blinded by the fact that I'm not agreeing with you that you assume I'm opposing you.

There’s no “nuance” here.

With you? Yes, we are in agreement.

 

[TorontoGold]

Where did I say I was okay with it?
I said it was messy and gray, and that I see both sides.

“Actions have consequences” - This is what you said after rambling about how it’s “gray” and that somehow people on the Left are the ones who brought this upon them. So, if you’re going to try and weasel out of actually owning a stance then just say you are too scared to do so. Everyone else can make their position clear, but for you? No no no, wouldn’t dare want to actually stand for something.

Yes or no - do you agree with the methods of ICE right now?

Why is reading comprehension such a struggle here?

Maybe it’s from the mail order “supplement” pills? Might be something to check with your, uh, health consultant.

If someone is going to assert a point, they should be consistent. Goirish41 had no issue with unvaxxed getting rights stripped. So, it's ironic that he cares so deeply here.

Which innocent people got their rights stripped? Tell me. Which vaccinated people got caught in the crossfire of the terrible terrible injustice faced by those poor souls who were antivax.

“Why is reading comprehension so hard?” - You don’t even need to consider the actual immigrants. Even if you consider them to be subhuman criminals, you’re talking about innocent American citizens that account for the rest of the 25% that are picked up by ICE. But, it’s gray, so you can use that non-answer to avoid actually standing for something and just arguing someone else’s point because golly you would never want to have your own.

 

[Meatloaf]

 

[Bluto]

What did I say that isn't grounded in reality?



Only if there is reasonable suspicion they are guilty, as is REQUIRED by federal code for ICE to operate.



The funny thing is that I'm not even defending anything. I'm just providing context, but you are so blinded by the fact that I'm not agreeing with you that you assume I'm opposing you.



With you? Yes, we are in agreement.

“Blindsided” by you trying to justify racial profiling and ones ethnicity as being “reasonable suspicion”.

Your contrarian schtick is stupid and intellectually lazy.

 

[sixstar]

“Actions have consequences” - This is what you said after rambling about how it’s “gray” and that somehow people on the Left are the ones who brought this upon them.

Exactly. The previous administration allowed millions of illegals to flood the US, and now the new administration is enabling extreme measures to remove them.

The pendulum swings.

So, if you’re going to try and weasel out of actually owning a stance then just say you are too scared to do so. Everyone else can make their position clear, but for you? No no no, wouldn’t dare want to actually stand for something.

Yes or no - do you agree with the methods of ICE right now?

Not fully, no. But I also don't believe they are 100% abusing power like others here. Like I said, I see both sides.

I have no problem standing for things, as evidenced by many of my posts here. I also don't pretend to have the answer for every complex issue.

But I can imagine it's hard for a party loyalist like you to understand that others don't always have an obvious binary answer.

My previous invitation is still open. Give me three irrefutable points about COVID that conservatives are wrong about, and we can discuss with data and facts.

 

[sixstar]

“Blindsided” by trying to justify racial profiling and ones ethnicity as being “reasonable suspicion”.

Where did I try to justify racial profiling?
When did I say that someone's ethnicity qualifies for reasonable suspicion?

I never said such drivel.

Your contrarian schtick is stupid and intellectually lazy.

I provided data and federal codes. You provided emotionally charged hyperbole and strawman arguments. You never asked for my stance; you just assumed I am in opposition to you.

Who is lazy?

 

[TorontoGold]

Exactly. The previous administration allowed millions of illegals to flood the US, and now the new administration is enabling extreme measures to remove them.

The pendulum swings.

You’d do better to drop the hyperbole. It doesn’t go well with being a contrarian.

Not fully, no. But I also don't believe they are 100% abusing power like others here. Like I said, I see both sides.

I have no problem standing for things, as evidenced by many of my posts here. I also don't pretend to have the answer for every complex issue.

You’re making false straw man arguments, which is to be expected from you but nonetheless we carry on. You claim others are 100% but then go on to accuse me of being a binary party loyalist is rich.

So you disagree with the methods of ICE? But spend so much effort on arguing everyone?

But I can imagine it's hard for a party loyalist like you to understand that others don't always have an obvious binary answer.

Party loyalist? lol oh let’s drop the emotional sensationalism, ok? I am loyal to my ideals not to any party. I’ve routinely said how I appreciated Operation Warp Speed due to its global impact. That was done by Donny, correct?

Let’s try something out, when you make a post, let’s try and say what we’re thinking or what our opinion is, that way people will know what our position is. Sound like a plan?

 

[sixstar]

You’d do better to drop the hyperbole. It doesn’t go well with being a contrarian.

Where was I hyperbolic?

You’re making false straw man arguments,

Where?

So you disagree with the methods of ICE? But spend so much effort on arguing everyone?

Yes, I disagree with some of ICE's methods. Sledgehammers make poor scalpels. And we've seen abuse of power at every level of law enforcement, especially at the federal level.

I spend time and effort to respond to people who respond to me. I try to be as factual in my responses as possible.

Party loyalist? lol oh let’s drop the emotional sensationalism, ok? I am loyal to my ideals not to any party. I’ve routinely said how I appreciated Operation Warp Speed due to its global impact. That was done by Donny, correct?

No emotional sensationalism here.

Give me five Democrat party positions you actively oppose and why.

Let’s try something out, when you make a post, let’s try and say what we’re thinking or what our opinion is, that way people will know what our position is. Sound like a plan?

Happy to share my position when I have one.
But facts are always more important than positions.

 

[SportsingHard]

Let’s try something out, when you make a post, let’s try and say what we’re thinking or what our opinion is, that way people will know what our position is. Sound like a plan?

Your pronoun use is deeply confused, though I guess that's to be expected.

 

[RDU Irish]

Yup, messy like I said.

Chicago raid: 40-60 detained, 37 confirmed illegal.
LA raids: ~5200 detained, 4163 confirmed illegal.

~75-80% of detainees are guilty. Which means 20-25% are innocent. Messy. But there is no perfect solution.

These raids have been effective at detaining illegals, but innocent civilians are also getting targeted, mostly due to proximity. Gray, like I said.

But many of the people complaining about this also supported policies that let these illegals into the US in the first place

Actions have consequences.



Exactly like you did with the shot mandates. Pot, kettle.



Toronto says that as long as they can return to normal that the temporary inconvenience doesn't matter. So, you disagree with him then?



Didn't see you complain when constitutional rights were violated during COVID. What does that say about you?



Because it is a fully fictitious and hyperbolic example that ICE would assault bluto without reasonable suspicion while shopping at Home Depot.

Even when conducting mass raids, they were still at least 75% accurate. In what world would they specifically target a US citizen shopping with his family, if this citizen is not affiliated with illegals, in proximity to illegals, or reasonably suspicious of illegal entry?

I was wondering what all this BS had to do with Covid and then this banger brought it full circle.

Chicago literally smells. Every time I land in O'Hare I'm disgusted by the smell and can't wait to GTFO. Public transpo in any major city - straight up piss smell everywhere. Almost enough to make me want to mask up. Some of y'all must love the smell of urine defending cities like that. It's no way to live you heathens.

 

[RDU Irish]

My previous invitation is still open. Give me three irrefutable points about COVID that conservatives are wrong about, and we can discuss with data and facts.

LOL - Let me give it a shot since they refuse to answer.

Three Irrefutable Facts about Covid that Conservatives are wrong about:
1) Conservatives are Nazis
2) Conservatives are Racist
3) Conservatives are Fascist

BLM riots and rushing the border during COVID = GOOD!
Walking on the beach by yourself = BAD!!

Maybe be less hyperbolic assholes all the time and we might give an ounce of credence to your ICE as brownshirts rhetoric.

 

[TorontoGold]

Where was I hyperbolic?

"allowed"

Where?

"100%"

Yes, I disagree with some of ICE's methods. Sledgehammers make poor scalpels. And we've seen abuse of power at every level of law enforcement, especially at the federal level.

I spend time and effort to respond to people who respond to me. I try to be as factual in my responses as possible.

So are you more disagree or agree. I do not believe someone can be directly in the middle.

No emotional sensationalism here.

Give me five Democrat party positions you actively oppose and why.

Plenty.

1) Middle east policy of the previous admin
2) Coddling to right wing folks by moving border policy towards what the GOP wants.
3) Not taking steps towards universal health care as aggressively as they should
4) Election strategy is abhorrent. Running dog shit candidates and pairing them up with the relatives of war criminals.
5) Not listening to latin americans. Historically, they are very religious and also supporters of strong social safety nets. Dems offer them neither which in turn pushes them towards the more vocally religious party.

I could go on and on.

Happy to share my position when I have one.
But facts are always more important than positions.

Most people don't tend to jump into a discussion unless they have a position. I don't care for Michigan State Football, so I wouldn't start rhyming off thoughts about why Jonathan Smith is either a good or bad coach.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

per cap·i·ta
/pər ˈkapədə/
adverb

1. for each person; in relation to people taken individually.
   "the state had fewer banks per capita than elsewhere

adjective

1. relating or applied to each person.
   "lower than average per capita spending"

Kitchen table talk as of late.

 

[sixstar]

"allowed"

yes, allowed. this was not hyperbole.

So are you more disagree or agree. I do not believe someone can be directly in the middle.

I never said I was directly in the middle. You want a percentage? I'm about 70% in favor of what ICE ERO is doing.
Why? Because immigration should happen lawfully. People are free to come to America, provided that they follow the processes and laws we have established.

if someone comes here illegally, the US does not owe that person a long and drawn out removal process, because that would allow the illegal immigrant to keep living in the US while their living costs are subsidized at taxpayer expense while the process slowly winds through administrative courts.

I will reiterate: The extreme ICE actions are a direct response to the situation created by the Biden admin.

You can't ignore the law to enable illegal immigration, then demand law be applied when removing them. This is inconsistent reasoning.

And progressive liberal organizations design these types of situations as part of their "core" playbook, see here:

Toolbox — Beautiful Trouble

Dive into the Beautiful Trouble toolbox, an interconnected web of ideas and creative best practices that puts the power of organizing for social change in your hands. Start anywhere and explore…

beautifultrouble.org

1) Middle east policy of the previous admin

Be specific.

2) Coddling to right wing folks by moving border policy towards what the GOP wants.

What GOP-aligned border policies do the Dems currently espouse?

3) Not taking steps towards universal health care as aggressively as they should

So, your complaint is that the Democratic party isn't liberal enough? You are still aligned - you just want stronger alignment. I said what policies do you oppose?

4) Election strategy is abhorrent. Running dog shit candidates and pairing them up with the relatives of war criminals.

That's not a policy. That's a critique of operations. Party loyalist conservatives complain about the same thing.

5) Not listening to latin americans. Historically, they are very religious and also supporters of strong social safety nets. Dems offer them neither which in turn pushes them towards the more vocally religious party.

Again, that's not a policy. That's a critique of operations.

I could go on and on.

Doubtful. Of the five bullet points, only one addressed a legitimate Dem policy, but only because the Ds aren't liberal enough.


Let me help you, here are the top 10 most important policies of the Democrat party platform (verbiage taken from DNC). Which of these do you OPPOSE and why:

1. Economic equity and opportunity: raising minimum wage and taxing billionaires to reduce wealth inequality
2. Healthcare access and affordability: expanding the ACA, adding a public option, and capping drug prices
3. Climate change and clean energy: investing in renewables and aiming for net-zero emissions by 2050
4. Voting rights and democracy: protecting voting access through federal laws and reforming campaign finance
5. Immigration reform: creating a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, strengthening border security, and reforming asylum processes.
6. Racial and social justice: advancing criminal justice reform and addressing systemic racism
7. Reproductive rights: codifying Roe v. Wade and expanding abortion access
8. Gun safety: enacting universal background checks, banning assault weapons, and funding community violence prevention programs
9. Education and workforce development: increasing public school funding and free community college
10. Foreign policy and national security: strengthen NATO alliances, counter authoritarianism, promote global human rights

Most people don't tend to jump into a discussion unless they have a position. I don't care for Michigan State Football, so I wouldn't start rhyming off thoughts about why Jonathan Smith is either a good or bad coach.

Why not? Happens all the time. Look at the James Franklin thread over the last few days. Posters, who are no fans of JF, have pointed out that he has had more success than BK did at ND.

I asked you what your sources of truth are. You said "data mainly, or academic sources." So when I post data or facts, my position shouldn't matter. You should hold that data in higher regard than my position. That is, unless you intend to regard/dismiss said data based on the extent to which my position aligns with/opposes yours. But that would be hypocritical, right?

 

[Bantry19]

“Why? Because immigration should happen lawfully. People are free to come to America, provided that they follow the processes and laws we have established.”

In Chicago, immigrants who thought they were following the legal path are also facing deportation under Trump crackdown

“immigrant to keep living in the US while their living costs are subsidized at taxpayer expense while the process slowly winds through administrative courts.”

Immigrants who are here without legal status contribute more to the economy than they take out. Including health care.

Your arguments don’t stand up to reality.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

This is all happening because no girls wanted to fuck Stephen Miller in high school.

His dad should have paid for a hooker or at the very least got that dude a table dance.

 

[sixstar]

“Why? Because immigration should happen lawfully. People are free to come to America, provided that they follow the processes and laws we have established.”

In Chicago, immigrants who thought they were following the legal path are also facing deportation under Trump crackdown

you DO realize that this family entered America illegally, yes?

Darwin Leal: immigrated in 2023 and was "released on parole after processing." Read: this was an irregular border crossing and did not come through the legal port of entry.

Wife and older daughter: entered via the southern border "por trocha" (through backroads), then turned themselves in to immigration officials.

Applying for asylum and obtaining a work permit do not retroactively legalize unlawful entry.

Immigrants who are here without legal status contribute more to the economy than they take out. Including health care.

First, economic contribution has no bearing on the legality of US entry.

Second, while illegal immigrants do generate net economic benefits at the federal level through taxes, they also impose net negative (deficits) on state and local governments.

Tax payers are responsible for all levels.

Your arguments don’t stand up to reality.

Facts over feelings. Facts are inarguable. Would you like a mirror, or are you satisfied with your Yahoo news article that didn't back your point?

 

[Bantry19]

you DO realize that this family entered America illegally, yes?

And, considering the Trump Administration has UNLAWFULLY frozen the refugee admissions program, the illegal option is the only choice.

Darwin Leal: immigrated in 2023 and was "released on parole after processing." Read: this was an irregular border crossing and did not come through the legal port of entry.

Wife and older daughter: entered via the southern border "por trocha" (through backroads), then turned themselves in to immigration officials.

Applying for asylum and obtaining a work permit do not retroactively legalize unlawful entry.

Great, let’s be consistent and deport Melania Trump and Elon Musk, both of whom entered the country illegally. Best to deport some high profile illegals to set an example.

First, economic contribution has no bearing on the legality of US entry.

Second, while illegal immigrants do generate net economic benefits at the federal level through taxes, they also impose net negative (deficits) on state and local governments.

Tax payers are responsible for all levels.



Facts over feelings. Facts are inarguable. Would you like a mirror, or are you satisfied with your Yahoo news article that didn't back your point?

It’s a Chicago Tribune article, maybe check sources. You walked into my point perfectly.

“Why don’t they enter the country legally?!?”

Says the people who make it virtually impossible to do so…

 

[TorontoGold]

yes, allowed. this was not hyperbole.

View attachment 3060404

Encounter stats.

I never said I was directly in the middle. You want a percentage? I'm about 70% in favor of what ICE ERO is doing.
Why? Because immigration should happen lawfully. People are free to come to America, provided that they follow the processes and laws we have established.

if someone comes here illegally, the US does not owe that person a long and drawn out removal process, because that would allow the illegal immigrant to keep living in the US while their living costs are subsidized at taxpayer expense while the process slowly winds through administrative courts.

I will reiterate: The extreme ICE actions are a direct response to the situation created by the Biden admin.

You can't ignore the law to enable illegal immigration, then demand law be applied when removing them. This is inconsistent reasoning.

And progressive liberal organizations design these types of situations as part of their "core" playbook, see here:

Toolbox — Beautiful Trouble

Dive into the Beautiful Trouble toolbox, an interconnected web of ideas and creative best practices that puts the power of organizing for social change in your hands. Start anywhere and explore…

beautifultrouble.org

I asked you a yes or no, and you danced around it. For someone who complains so much about others not answering it took quite a bit to get you to actually give a response.

Be specific.

Boy, after this you can never, ever, complain about "vortex OMG". We're now discussing my thoughts on Biden's middle east policy in the COVID thread.

His repeated arming of Israel, and ignoring of global consensus.

What GOP-aligned border policies do the Dems currently espouse?

See: 2024 election cycle.

So, your complaint is that the Democratic party isn't liberal enough? You are still aligned - you just want stronger alignment. I said what policies do you oppose?

Do you understand what the term "liberal" means? I would hate for the Dems to become MORE liberal. This is literal Poli Sci 101. If you don't understand that then I can't help you.

That's not a policy. That's a critique of operations. Party loyalist conservatives complain about the same thing.

Sure it is. Election messaging and strategy is a policy.

See: Redistricting efforts.
See: Voting availability.

Again, that's not a policy. That's a critique of operations.

Again, it is a policy. I don't believe you're actually missing the point, and just arguing for the sake of it.

The holistic party policy on latin citizens/voters is abhorrent.

See: Political parties creating policy for specific groups of people - ie. LGBTQ/religious people/rural etc.

Doubtful. Of the five bullet points, only one addressed a legitimate Dem policy, but only because the Ds aren't liberal enough.

Wrong.

Let me help you, here are the top 10 most important policies of the Democrat party platform (verbiage taken from DNC). Which of these do you OPPOSE and why:

1. Economic equity and opportunity: raising minimum wage and taxing billionaires to reduce wealth inequality
2. Healthcare access and affordability: expanding the ACA, adding a public option, and capping drug prices
3. Climate change and clean energy: investing in renewables and aiming for net-zero emissions by 2050
4. Voting rights and democracy: protecting voting access through federal laws and reforming campaign finance
5. Immigration reform: creating a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, strengthening border security, and reforming asylum processes.
6. Racial and social justice: advancing criminal justice reform and addressing systemic racism
7. Reproductive rights: codifying Roe v. Wade and expanding abortion access
8. Gun safety: enacting universal background checks, banning assault weapons, and funding community violence prevention programs
9. Education and workforce development: increasing public school funding and free community college
10. Foreign policy and national security: strengthen NATO alliances, counter authoritarianism, promote global human rights

That's a nice AI list you've generated. If they actually believed in doing any of those then I wouldn't disagree with them. Just because they're listed does not at all mean they've taken any meaningful steps to actually implement that. I can tell my girlfriend that I'm listening to her always, but if I don't actually listen to her it doesn't mean that it's something I do.

Why not? Happens all the time. Look at the James Franklin thread over the last few days. Posters, who are no fans of JF, have pointed out that he has had more success than BK did at ND.

You don't think people have a position on either James Franklin or Brian Kelly before posting? Read my comment again.

I asked you what your sources of truth are. You said "data mainly, or academic sources." So when I post data or facts, my position shouldn't matter. You should hold that data in higher regard than my position. That is, unless you intend to regard/dismiss said data based on the extent to which my position aligns with/opposes yours. But that would be hypocritical, right?

What are you talking about? You've asked my thoughts on Democrat policies? Or is it the CBP data on encounters?

Let's play your grievance game:

Why is your position that Biden purposefully allowed for those encounters (remember, encounters) to happen, but Obama deported more undocumented than Trump did and you don't consider Trump to be weak on illegal immigration? Pendulum swings.

 

[FU BK]

I live in rural NC mountain/farm country and I still see masks all over. I guess it all depends on the area.

I liked when the mayor in the town i live in mandated masks to go in a store. Mind you I hate both political parties equally, so I went on ebay and got a Finnish military gas mask with the big filter canister on the side, then put one of the stupid paper masks over the canister. Got alot of weird looks walking into Walmart and grocery store as a 6'6" hillbilly with a gas mask with a .45 on his hip

 

[sixstar]

And, considering the Trump Administration has UNLAWFULLY frozen the refugee admissions program, the illegal option is the only choice.

Unlawful? TBD. It's contested and in the courts. For the record, I very much oppose the use of executive orders.
Illegal entry is the only choice? False. Immigrants can still seek asylum at ports of entry.

Great, let’s be consistent and deport Melania Trump and Elon Musk, both of whom entered the country illegally. Best to deport some high profile illegals to set an example.

Both are now US citizens, so you can't deport them. Both entered legally on visas. Their issues were post-entry work violations, and no fraud was legally found. If they had entered the country illegally, and they were within the window of deportation, agree.

It’s a Chicago Tribune article, maybe check sources. You walked into my point perfectly.

Hosted on yahoo, which you linked. Don't deflect. You erroneously posted an article about a family that illegally entered and tried to argue that they were here legally. Just admit you made an oopsies.

“Why don’t they enter the country legally?!?”

Says the people who make it virtually impossible to do so…

First, I'm not doing anything. Second, the pendulum swings. I don't agree with restricting legal entry, but do you think Trump would have done that if the borders weren't loosened so excessively in the previous admin? Both parties have behaved badly.

Encounter stats.

Encounters are the primary official metric for tracking attempted illegal crossings and is published monthly by US CBP. So, what is your gripe?

I asked you a yes or no, and you danced around it. For someone who complains so much about others not answering it took quite a bit to get you to actually give a response.

I answered the question in my first post about the topic. Messy, gray, and I see both sides. that was my position.

Boy, after this you can never, ever, complain about "vortex OMG". We're now discussing my thoughts on Biden's middle east policy in the COVID thread. His repeated arming of Israel, and ignoring of global consensus.

Okay, understood. You are not a strict party loyalist because you hold even further left progressivist foreign policy ideals than mainline Democrat policy. Fair enough.

Do you understand what the term "liberal" means? I would hate for the Dems to become MORE liberal. This is literal Poli Sci 101. If you don't understand that then I can't help you.

Got it. You aren't a party loyalist because you hold more progressive ideology than mainline. Noted.

Sure it is. Election messaging and strategy is a policy.

See: Redistricting efforts.
See: Voting availability.

you didn't say election messaging or strategy. you said "dogshit candidates." now you are moving the goalposts to include redistricting and voting availability. I have to admit: nice retrofit.

also - don't think that I didn't notice how you didn't specify what you oppose. It was a nice attempt though.

Again, it is a policy. I don't believe you're actually missing the point, and just arguing for the sake of it.
The holistic party policy on latin citizens/voters is abhorrent.
See: Political parties creating policy for specific groups of people - ie. LGBTQ/religious people/rural etc.

Still lacking specificity regarding policies. Do you oppose DACA? Medicaid expansion?

That's a nice AI list you've generated. If they actually believed in doing any of those then I wouldn't disagree with them. Just because they're listed does not at all mean they've taken any meaningful steps to actually implement that. I can tell my girlfriend that I'm listening to her always, but if I don't actually listen to her it doesn't mean that it's something I do.

Are you saying that the official 2024 Democratic Party Platform is AI generated? Because that's where I pulled the points from.

https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/2024-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf

You don't think people have a position on either James Franklin or Brian Kelly before posting? Read my comment again.

Most people don't tend to jump into a discussion unless they have a position. I don't care for Michigan State Football, so I wouldn't start rhyming off thoughts about why Jonathan Smith is either a good or bad coach.

people talk football stats here all the time. this argument is flawed from its foundation.

Let's play your grievance game:

Why is your position that Biden purposefully allowed for those encounters (remember, encounters) to happen, but Obama deported more undocumented than Trump did and you don't consider Trump to be weak on illegal immigration? Pendulum swings.

When did I assign a strength/weakness rating for Trump WRT illegal immigration?

Remember: encounters are the primary official metric for tracking attempted illegal crossings.

Why do I assert that the Biden admin allowed these encounters?
Obama: 550k encounters/year
Trump1: 600k encounters/yr
Biden: 1,900k encounters/yr

Find the outlier. This is data, not my feelings. What stat do you dispute here?

 

[GATTACA!]

I liked when the mayor in the town i live in mandated masks to go in a store. Mind you I hate both political parties equally, so I went on ebay and got a Finnish military gas mask with the big filter canister on the side, then put one of the stupid paper masks over the canister. Got alot of weird looks walking into Walmart and grocery store as a 6'6" hillbilly with a gas mask with a .45 on his hip

You sure showed them.

 

[TorontoGold]

Encounters are the primary official metric for tracking attempted illegal crossings and is published monthly by US CBP. So, what is your gripe?

Attempted crossings. This doesn't fit your argument of Biden purposely allowing illegal immigration.

Okay, understood. You are not a strict party loyalist because you hold even further left progressivist foreign policy ideals than mainline Democrat policy. Fair enough.

Got it. You aren't a party loyalist because you hold more progressive ideology than mainline. Noted.

Yes.

you didn't say election messaging or strategy. you said "dogshit candidates." now you are moving the goalposts to include redistricting and voting availability. I have to admit: nice retrofit.

also - don't think that I didn't notice how you didn't specify what you oppose. It was a nice attempt though.

Are you not following? I said election strategy is abhorrent. I then made a comment on the quality of those candidates that they run. I didn't list all of the things I disagree with them on in terms of election strategy.

You've literally become the meme of "Oh Nirvana is your favorite band? Name 5 songs!!!" guy. It's hilarious.

Still lacking specificity regarding policies. Do you oppose DACA? Medicaid expansion?

What? I gave you 5 areas of policy that I disagree with them on. You don't like my responses? You'll have to be ok with this because I have been far more generous with my responses than anyone on the Right has ever been with me. I'll remind you, again, you can never scream about vortex after this.

I have already stated that they are not progressive enough for me. Our poli sci lesson above went over the differences between liberal and progressive. You'll have to continue your education in a self directed manner.

Are you saying that the official 2024 Democratic Party Platform is AI generated? Because that's where I pulled the points from.

https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/2024-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf

Yeah, you got AI to summarize the entire platform into 10 points. Just give it up lol.

people talk football stats here all the time. this argument is flawed from its foundation.

Flawed because you don't like it, doesn't mean the argument is flawed.

When did I assign a strength/weakness rating that Trump on illegal immigration?

Remember: encounters are the primary official metric for tracking attempted illegal crossings.

Why do I assert that Biden purposefully allowed these encounters?
Obama: 550k encounters/year
Trump1: 600k encounters/yr
Biden: 1,900k encounters/yr

Find the outlier. This is data, not my feelings. What stat do you dispute here?

You didn't, you've said that Biden purposely allowed encounters. Does it mean that Trump purposely increased the encounters in his term? Remember, you're asserting that Biden somehow encouraged encounters (I noticed we changed our tune from invasion/illegal immigration to encounters) so did Trump do that too, or are we just saying Biden?

 

[sixstar]

Attempted crossings. This doesn't fit your argument of Biden purposely allowing illegal immigration.

Encounters are the official metric for attempted illegal crossings.

A three-fold surge. This is ~8.9 sigma event, about the same odds as winning the Powerball jackpot ~12 million times in a row.

So, what is your explanation for this surge, if you claim that it wasn't influenced by a major policy shift?

Are you not following? I said election strategy is abhorrent. I then made a comment on the quality of those candidates that they run. I didn't list all of the things I disagree with them on in terms of election strategy.

Deflection shields activated. "Dog-shit candidates" isn’t policy, and expanding it after the fact to mean redistricting or voting access is goalpost-moving. Just own that your first example wasn’t a policy disagreement.

You've literally become the meme of "Oh Nirvana is your favorite band? Name 5 songs!!!" guy. It's hilarious.

you said you weren't a loyalist. i asked for receipts. your receipts were weak. now you're spiraling.

What? I gave you 5 areas of policy that I disagree with them on. You don't like my responses? You'll have to be ok with this because I have been far more generous with my responses than anyone on the Right has ever been with me.

I do appreciate that you answered the questions. Truly. And while I disagree with some of your answers, I do respect that you answered them. And I do agree that you have been more generous with the responses than others on the right on this board. In fact, even when we disagree, I at least respect that you try rather than resorting to name calling like others here.

I'll remind you, again, you can never scream about vortex after this.

DESPITE my last paragraph, agree to disagree, haha. And you can do the same for me.

You didn't, you've said that Biden purposely allowed encounters. Does it mean that Trump purposely increased the encounters in his term? Remember, you're asserting that Biden somehow encouraged encounters (I noticed we changed our tune from invasion/illegal immigration to encounters) so did Trump do that too, or are we just saying Biden?

If it wasn't purposeful, then it was either accidental, negligent, incompetent, unwilling, or just an 8.9-sigma random event. So, which is it?

You like data, so I'm speaking data terms (encounters). I'm not changing any tune.

And no, Trump didn't purposefully increase the encounters in his term. A 50k bump is less than a 0.3 sigma event. Pure statistical noise with no meaningful correlation. I thought you liked data?