Russia Invades Ukraine

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ab2cmiller

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ozzman said:
It's a mob boss mentality. Treat your allies like shit because they're beneath you and under your control. Treat rival mob bosses with deference because they're the head of their family and earned your respect.
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This pretty much sums up Trump in all regards. Expects loyalty at all costs. You cross him, you end up in a body bag (figuratively). Even those people that offer even the smallest amount of criticism.
 
NorthDakota

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ozzman said:
It's a mob boss mentality. Treat your allies like shit because they're beneath you and under your control. Treat rival mob bosses with deference because they're the head of their family and earned your respect.
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I don't think anyone has been treated like shit per se, but our allies are all beneath us. So if they are acting counter to American interests, I have no problem with reminding them who makes the rules.
 
BilboBaggins

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NorthDakota said:
I don't think anyone has been treated like shit per se, but our allies are all beneath us. So if they are acting counter to American interests, I have no problem with reminding them who makes the rules.
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Except the US needs them just as much as the Europeans need the US. It's just the MAGA crowd that doesn't get that.

We are heading towards a multi-polar world, and while there are scenarios in which China overtakes the US economically and militarily, there are no scenarios in which China even comes close to overtaking the combined economic might of the US + Europe/Allies. Division in the west is the only chance Russia and China have.

MAGA is too dumb to realize that America gets a worse deal in a multipolar world without strong allies. The Europeans are going to shift away from American dependence... that's bad for America.

Trump doesn't just disagree with allies. He goes out of his way to antagonize them and pour acid on decades-long relationships. Because hes either too vain, or Russia's bitch, or both.
 
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Giddyup

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Yeah the whole world needs us I guess. We’re 36 trillion in debt so the teet is tapped for the world
 
NorthDakota

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BilboBaggins said:
Except the US needs them just as much as the Europeans need the US. It's just the MAGA crowd that doesn't get that.

We are heading towards a multi-polar world, and while there are scenarios in which China overtakes the US economically and militarily, there are no scenarios in which China even comes close to overtaking the combined economic might of the US + Europe/Allies. Division in the west is the only chance Russia and China have.

MAGA is too dumb to realize that America gets a worse deal in a multipolar world without strong allies. The Europeans are going to shift away from American dependence... that's bad for America.

Trump doesn't just disagree with allies. He goes out of his way to antagonize them and pour acid on decades-long relationships. Because hes either too vain, or Russia's bitch, or both.
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We need them to defend their own back yard. That's about it.

There are two countries that really matter...Russia and China. Russia is contained if Europe wants to contain them. We have China under wraps.
 
NDVirginia19

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BilboBaggins said:
Except the US needs them just as much as the Europeans need the US. It's just the MAGA crowd that doesn't get that.

We are heading towards a multi-polar world, and while there are scenarios in which China overtakes the US economically and militarily, there are no scenarios in which China even comes close to overtaking the combined economic might of the US + Europe/Allies. Division in the west is the only chance Russia and China have.

MAGA is too dumb to realize that America gets a worse deal in a multipolar world without strong allies. The Europeans are going to shift away from American dependence... that's bad for America.

Trump doesn't just disagree with allies. He goes out of his way to antagonize them and pour acid on decades-long relationships. Because hes either too vain, or Russia's bitch, or both.
Click to expand...
Considering that the Europeans can’t currently field any naval contribution to Operation Prosperity Garden, I am incredibly skeptical that they would serve any use militarily if we were to get involved militarily to prevent Chinese aggression in the First Island Chain.

Point taken that their economic solidarity would be necessary as apart of a larger strategy to isolate China economically… but again if we look at the recent past, they are willing to talk tough against Russia but still sent more money to Russia for Natural Gas imports than they did to Ukraine for aid last year.

One could argue (I don’t agree with this stance necessarily) that the best grand strategy is rapprochement with Russia to prevent their further entanglement with the PRC, so that in the event of war in the East, we could dissuade Russian economic or military support of China.


The ideal scenario would be the full throated alliance between the US and NATO partners as the world slides further into multi polarity. But the question in my mind is still - how much can we really rely on Europe? Maybe they need some tough love to get their shit together and be an asset going forward rather than the current vassal state nature of the relationship as it has been in the post Cold War paradigm.
 
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NDVirginia19 said:
Considering that the Europeans can’t currently field any naval contribution to Operation Prosperity Garden, I am incredibly skeptical that they would serve any use militarily if we were to get involved militarily to prevent Chinese aggression in the First Island Chain.

Point taken that their economic solidarity would be necessary as apart of a larger strategy to isolate China economically… but again if we look at the recent past, they are willing to talk tough against Russia but still sent more money to Russia for Natural Gas imports than they did to Ukraine for aid last year.

One could argue (I don’t agree with this stance necessarily) that the best grand strategy is rapprochement with Russia to prevent their further entanglement with the PRC, so that in the event of war in the East, we could dissuade Russian economic or military support of China.


The ideal scenario would be the full throated alliance between the US and NATO partners as the world slides further into multi polarity. But the question in my mind is still - how much can we really rely on Europe? Maybe they need some tough love to get their shit together and be an asset going forward rather than the current vassal state nature of the relationship as it has been in the post Cold War paradigm.
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I just posted this in the foreign affairs thread. But it like like Trump plans on going in the opposite direction regarding NATO.

www.nbcnews.com

Trump admin considers giving up NATO command that has been American since Eisenhower

The move is being discussed as part of a possible restructuring of combatant commands that would help the Defense Department cut costs.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
BuaConstrictor

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NDVirginia19

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BuaConstrictor said:
..maybe because they are contributing vessels to their own plan
www.atlanticcouncil.org

With Operation Aspides, Europe is charting its own course in and around the Red Sea

The main distinction with the US-UK approach is that the EU operation does not envision any participation in strikes against the Houthis.
www.atlanticcouncil.org www.atlanticcouncil.org
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Yeah, 5 frigates that have shot down a collective 14 weapons over the past 13 months. We did more than double that in the first two weeks.

Operation Aspides also does nothing to actually address the root cause of threat and seems content to perpetually allow cheap Iranian drones to get shot down by million dollar interceptor missiles.

Lastly, over half of the Aspides nations were also OPG “partners” but did not actually provide any meaningful assistance.
 
Sea Turtle

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BilboBaggins said:
Except the US needs them just as much as the Europeans need the US. It's just the MAGA crowd that doesn't get that.

We are heading towards a multi-polar world, and while there are scenarios in which China overtakes the US economically and militarily, there are no scenarios in which China even comes close to overtaking the combined economic might of the US + Europe/Allies. Division in the west is the only chance Russia and China have.

MAGA is too dumb to realize that America gets a worse deal in a multipolar world without strong allies. The Europeans are going to shift away from American dependence... that's bad for America.

Trump doesn't just disagree with allies. He goes out of his way to antagonize them and pour acid on decades-long relationships. Because hes either too vain, or Russia's bitch, or both.
Click to expand...

No, that's not true. We don't need them as much as they need us. We need them, true, but it's not equal.


And I've got news for you, Europe is finished. Look at the birth rates and the militaries for every European country. Hell, they will be Islamic in 25 years.
 
calvegas04

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Sea Turtle said:
No, that's not true. We don't need them as much as they need us. We need them, true, but it's not equal.


And I've got news for you, Europe is finished. Look at the birth rates and the militaries for every European country. Hell, they will be Islamic in 25 years.
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The US birth rate is inline with Europe. Were all in trouble when the 3rd world countries out number us 4 to 1
 
Sea Turtle

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calvegas04 said:
The US birth rate is inline with Europe. Were all in trouble when the 3rd world countries out number us 4 to 1
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I know that we are down to 1.66. It's not good. And I have been saying that people aren't having kids anymore and it's not healthy. Heck, young people aren't even meeting, having sex/relationships/families anymore. And I don't count hooking up on Tinder as anything meaningful.

We are having to fill the gap through southern immigration. I don't worry about our military or legal catholic immigrants. I'm very concerned about Europe's situation. They are cratering population, military and cultural wise.
 
calvegas04

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Sea Turtle said:
I know that we are down to 1.66. It's not good. And I have been saying that people aren't having kids anymore and it's not healthy. Heck, young people aren't even meeting, having sex/relationships/families anymore. And I don't count hooking up on Tinder as anything meaningful.

We are having to fill the gap through southern immigration. I don't worry about our military or legal catholic immigrants. I'm very concerned about Europe's situation. They are cratering population, military and cultural wise.
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Feel like this is going to hijack the thread but it's hard having kids now in the US. Everything is so damn expensive. The political climate in the US isn't idea for a while and doesn't seem to be improving anytime soon. Schools aren't great, teachers pushing agendas. It's a rough time to have kids.
 
Sea Turtle

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calvegas04 said:
Feel like this is going to hijack the thread but it's hard having kids now in the US. Everything is so damn expensive. The political climate in the US isn't idea for a while and doesn't seem to be improving anytime soon. Schools aren't great, teachers pushing agendas. It's a rough time to have kids.
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It's been a rough time throughout history to have kids. I lived under threat of nuclear annihilation every day as a kid in the 1980's. Growing up in Indy, we knew we'd get hit with it being a top 20ish target. Most railroads cross there, Eli Lilly, Allison's, Diamond chain, Link Belt, the Naval Air Station, IU hospital, etc.

But you're right, they are expensive. And I think that's it. People would rather travel and have toys than have kids.

Russia and Ukraine are going to have serious issues soon with their birthrate. And this war is just pouring gasoline on the fire.
 
calvegas04

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Sea Turtle said:
It's been a rough time throughout history to have kids. I lived under threat of nuclear annihilation every day as a kid in the 1980's. Growing up in Indy, we knew we'd get hit with it being a top 20ish target. Most railroads cross there, Eli Lilly, Allison's, Diamond chain, Link Belt, IU hospital, etc.

But you're right, they are expensive. And I think that's it. People would rather travel and have toys than have kids.

Russia and Ukraine are going to have serious issues soon with their birthrate. And this war is just pouring gasoline on the fire.
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I think fertility treatments will need to be covered by the government at some point. Never realized until my 30's how many people are just unable to have children due to the cost. Not sure what is causing such high infertility in women now, maybe all the shitty food?
 
Sea Turtle

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calvegas04 said:
I think fertility treatments will need to be covered by the government at some point. Never realized until my 30's how many people are just unable to have children due to the cost. Not sure what is causing such high infertility in women now, maybe all the shitty food?
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I agree. And tax breaks galore. Poland has introduced a lifetime income tax break on for women who have multiple children.

But alas, we are derailing the thread. We can discuss the why/women in the culture thread sometime.
 
Irish#1

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Sea Turtle said:
I know that we are down to 1.66. It's not good. And I have been saying that people aren't having kids anymore and it's not healthy. Heck, young people aren't even meeting, having sex/relationships/families anymore. And I don't count hooking up on Tinder as anything meaningful.

We are having to fill the gap through southern immigration. I don't worry about our military or legal catholic immigrants. I'm very concerned about Europe's situation. They are cratering population, military and cultural wise.
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England is already turning. There are quite a few mayors that are Muslim. There's a report showing a lot of new housing is being built near mosques and Muslim centers specifically for the Muslim population.
 
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