Russia Invades Ukraine

NDVirginia19

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Trump supports Russia, so Trumpers support Russia. That's all there is to it.

He could just as easily order that frozen Russian assets--worth hundreds of billions of dollars--could be liquidated to pay for Ukrainian aid. But he's not doing that. He is Russia's bitch and always has been.
Trump actually couldn’t order that. The hundreds of billions of dollars in frozen assets are held in banks in Europe. Only 4 billion or so here.

And if the only reason he wouldn’t do it in your mind is that he’s Russia’s bitch, explain why Biden and the leaders of Europe haven’t done it yet?? Are they also Putin’s bitch, or is the world maybe a bit more complicated than you insinuate
 

Irish#1

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About S. Korea/Japan/Taiwan... I think we have greater ties with Europe than Asia historically so if we cant stand up for europe then it signals we cant stand up for our asian allies.
As for supporting Russia, I was being partly facetious to prove my point. But it does feel that way sometimes. It feels like a blind support for Trump. People don't seem to have one reason for bailing and it's like we are seeing people trying to convince themselves it is the right decision in real time. One day its about money, then its about manpower, then its about nukes and ww3, then its about Ukraine is actually the corrupt country. I havent really heard a great excuse.
You have some good points on Ukraine. My only concern is the stalemate this war has been in the last two years. Ukraine certainly has the right to continue. It’s just sad to see the lives lost. The only way this is going to come to a conclusion is if additional weapons and manpower are provided to push Russia out.

As far as SK and Japan, we have ties with Europe that are definitely older, but (and this is just my opinion), I think our ties are just as strong with SK and Japan. We helped rebuild Japan and have had a great alliance with them since. We committed a lot of lives in helping SK hold of NK and China. Even after 80 years the bond is still there.
 

calvegas04

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Trump actually couldn’t order that. The hundreds of billions of dollars in frozen assets are held in banks in Europe. Only 4 billion or so here.

And if the only reason he wouldn’t do it in your mind is that he’s Russia’s bitch, explain why Biden and the leaders of Europe haven’t done it yet?? Are they also Putin’s bitch, or is the world maybe a bit more complicated than you insinuate
Biden was weak, was always afraid of Russia's fake red line. If he gave Ukraine the support they needed during the first year they could have pushed russia out.
 

NorthDakota

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About S. Korea/Japan/Taiwan... I think we have greater ties with Europe than Asia historically so if we cant stand up for europe then it signals we cant stand up for our asian allies.
As for supporting Russia, I was being partly facetious to prove my point. But it does feel that way sometimes. It feels like a blind support for Trump. People don't seem to have one reason for bailing and it's like we are seeing people trying to convince themselves it is the right decision in real time. One day its about money, then its about manpower, then its about nukes and ww3, then its about Ukraine is actually the corrupt country. I havent really heard a great excuse.
We have ties to Europe. Not Ukraine. Ukraine is not Germany, France, UK...it's not even Poland. It's not even in NATO.

We have more ties to South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan than Ukraine basically by default. We've had troops in Korea/Japan since the 40's. We've supported Taiwan from its inception like 70+ years ago.
 

NorthDakota

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Biden was weak, was always afraid of Russia's fake red line. If he gave Ukraine the support they needed during the first year they could have pushed russia out.
This is silly neocon revisionism. It's *always* we didn't do enough.
 

TracyGraham

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We have ties to Europe. Not Ukraine. Ukraine is not Germany, France, UK...it's not even Poland. It's not even in NATO.

We have more ties to South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan than Ukraine basically by default. We've had troops in Korea/Japan since the 40's. We've supported Taiwan from its inception like 70+ years ago.
It is difficult to quantify ties. Ukraine is adjacent to multiple very long term allies. Japan/S.korea are very strong allies but only since ww2. The point you should be taking away from this is not what rating each ally has on a scale of 1-10, but what the result of not supporting an ally when it only requires weapons and money(proxy) vs one where it requires death of Americans. What do you expect America to do when China masses 10 million troops on the N. Korea/S. Korea border if they can't stomach a proxy war? What signal does it relay? China clearly sees we have zero resolve even for minimal commitment.
 

TracyGraham

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Even the claim that Trump supports Russia is idiotic. Some people got broken in 2016. Sadly, even nine years later, they are still unwell.
I am a huge supporter of almost every Trump stance. But this bullshit makes me really question why he is doing this. I have heard zero substantial excuses for bailing on Ukraine and it feels very suspicious. It definitely doesn't reflect in the least bit what I think America stands for and i cant stomach it. I definitely wonder if Russia gave Tulsi cash. I now really can imagine there is a video out there with trump and golden showers.
A month ago I was thinking Vance is super sharp and I hope he is our next president. Now I think fuck this guy.
I don't even think the admin is really considering the repercussions. It just might be that Trump is petty as F and dislikes Ukraine because of the Hunter laptop burisma bs and he is trying punish them. It seems that simple and everyone is just going along with it.

I normally like trumps petty behavior because he is a hammer to all the bs, but not when it screws up out international standing and influence.
 
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BilboBaggins

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Trump actually couldn’t order that. The hundreds of billions of dollars in frozen assets are held in banks in Europe. Only 4 billion or so here.

And if the only reason he wouldn’t do it in your mind is that he’s Russia’s bitch, explain why Biden and the leaders of Europe haven’t done it yet?? Are they also Putin’s bitch, or is the world maybe a bit more complicated than you insinuate
You realize you're talking about Donald J Trump, right? The man has never let "I can't do that" get in the way. This is Mr. Build The Wall And Make Mexico Pay For It. He could walk out there tomorrow and say Russia withdraws to 2014 lines or he tells the Europeans to liquidate Russia's assets to pay for more modern weaponry for Ukraine. He could tell NATO members to liquidate Russian assets and beef up their militaries so they can "pay their bills" as he says.

Nah instead he goes out of his way to pitch an end to the war that is oddly in line with Russia's desires and alienates NATO allies at every opportunity.

He's been Russia's bitch for years and if you missed Helsinki 2018 go for a rewatch.
 

BilboBaggins

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Even the claim that Trump supports Russia is idiotic. Some people got broken in 2016. Sadly, even nine years later, they are still unwell.
2016... when Trump called everyone on the planet a low energy loser, except Putin. When he hired Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? That year?
 

NorthDakota

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It is difficult to quantify ties. Ukraine is adjacent to multiple very long term allies. Japan/S.korea are very strong allies but only since ww2. The point you should be taking away from this is not what rating each ally has on a scale of 1-10, but what the result of not supporting an ally when it only requires weapons and money(proxy) vs one where it requires death of Americans. What do you expect America to do when China masses 10 million troops on the N. Korea/S. Korea border if they can't stomach a proxy war? What signal does it relay? China clearly sees we have zero resolve even for minimal commitment.
An ally of an ally isn't anything. It does sound like a great way to draw the US into shit we don't care about though. Washington rightly warned against getting drawn into European affairs.

There comes a time when it may be needed. We don't have the weapons and money to support these guys anymore.
 

NorthDakota

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2016... when Trump called everyone on the planet a low energy loser, except Putin. When he hired Paul Manafort to be his campaign manager? That year?
Around the time he was telling Europe that relying on Russian energy was bad and sending ukraine weapons
 

TracyGraham

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An ally of an ally isn't anything. It does sound like a great way to draw the US into shit we don't care about though. Washington rightly warned against getting drawn into European affairs.

There comes a time when it may be needed. We don't have the weapons and money to support these guys anymore.
You mean Washington as in the president from 250 years ago? Obviously a national hero/icon, but I'm not sure if we should be taking geopolitical advice from him. Surely he had no idea about the dynamics of the modern world? Wonder if he had any concept of what Asia would look like in 2025.
As for Ukraine, it appears we are prob not going to come to an agreed upon conclusion of the importance. I can only repeat myself so many times. If you don't think we should defend them, I get that is your opinion.

But in my experience, that is how arguments go. One of us is not going to be convinced today, but maybe in a couple of weeks the point will sink in.
 

BilboBaggins

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BuaConstrictor

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Washington rightly warned against getting drawn into European affairs.
This is really bad angle of Washington's Farewell and the context of the time it was written. Washington's warning re: becoming entangled in European alliances and war had more to do with the fragile state of the fledging US Republic and its inability to properly defend itself against multiple European armies if the tide of a European war turned against us and our allies.

Washington felt the two greatest advantages the US had at our inception was time and space and that we should use those to our advantage as we formed into a more stable country. Washington was able to forward this theory as well as the global economy that exists today did not exist in the late 18th century....which he addresses...there was little (no?) benefit at the time for the US to get involved in Europe..that is obviously much different now...he also carves out space for alliances during emergencies.

Washington was also a strict constructionist when it came to the branches of government reaching into the other branches business...odd you aren't harping on that today....he was an ardent supporter of taxes.....etc etc.
 

NDVirginia19

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You realize you're talking about Donald J Trump, right? The man has never let "I can't do that" get in the way. This is Mr. Build The Wall And Make Mexico Pay For It. He could walk out there tomorrow and say Russia withdraws to 2014 lines or he tells the Europeans to liquidate Russia's assets to pay for more modern weaponry for Ukraine. He could tell NATO members to liquidate Russian assets and beef up their militaries so they can "pay their bills" as he says.

Nah instead he goes out of his way to pitch an end to the war that is oddly in line with Russia's desires and alienates NATO allies at every opportunity.

He's been Russia's bitch for years and if you missed Helsinki 2018 go for a rewatch.
Forget about Donald Trump. The Europeans are much more afraid of Russia and have been for years. Why haven’t *they* done it by now? Do you think there might be a reason why liquidating those assets might be bad other than making Russia mad?
 

Irish#1

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Pretty much.

They are cult members.
Trump supports Russia, so Trumpers support Russia. That's all there is to it.

He could just as easily order that frozen Russian assets--worth hundreds of billions of dollars--could be liquidated to pay for Ukrainian aid. But he's not doing that. He is Russia's bitch and always has been.

Quit being a little girl. So afraid of hurting russias feelings.
Classic Dem response. There is no middle ground. You don't agree 100% with us, then we'll label you as a bigot, racists, Nazi, Communist lovers.
 

Irish#1

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Relax, we all know that you've been super critical.
I said critical, not super critical. Regardless, knowing your position on things it would never be enough for you. You're right though. I need to relax. No reason to get upset and angry when I see the stupid posts by you and Bua.

b395e2ed-cb87-43bc-8e95-d8dc21517c12.jpg
 

BuaConstrictor

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Classic Dem response
Not a democrat!
You don't agree 100% with us, then we'll label you as a bigot, racists, Nazi, Communist lovers.
1. I label you those things not because you don't agree with "us" 100%, but because the things you post align with those views.
2. I've never labeled you a "communist lover" or said anything towards you in regards to communism given that your actual beliefs (Nazi/far right) would be at odds with the tenets of Communism.
3. The irony of you typing the above statement after your opening line of "cLaSsIc dEm ReSpOnSe" is *chefs kiss* hilarious.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Not a democrat!

1. I label you those things not because you don't agree with "us" 100%, but because the things you post align with those views.
2. I've never labeled you a "communist lover" or said anything towards you in regards to communism given that your actual beliefs (Nazi/far right) would be at odds with the tenets of Communism.
3. The irony of you typing the above statement after your opening line of "cLaSsIc dEm ReSpOnSe" is *chefs kiss* hilarious.
We know you're new here (or same old member with a new username) but Irish1 is one of the most level headed, common sense, rational posters on the whole site regardless of topic. He has never said anything that would lead one to believe he aligns with bigotry, KKK or Nazis.

Maybe if you tried more inquiring and understanding people's positions rather than playing wise professor (600 posts in a few weeks), you might be able to have more engaging discussions here.
 

BuaConstrictor

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but Irish1 is one of the most level headed, common sense, rational posters
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or same old member with a new username
False.

He has never said anything that would lead one to believe he aligns with bigotry, KKK or Nazis.
200w.gif


Maybe if you tried more inquiring and understanding people's positions rather than playing wise professor (600 posts in a few weeks), you might be able to have more engaging discussions here.
Counter proposal...people here step their game up and actually know what they are talking about so they can have more engaging discussions.

The issue isn't me. It's them.
 

Irish#1

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We know you're new here (or same old member with a new username) but Irish1 is one of the most level headed, common sense, rational posters on the whole site regardless of topic. He has never said anything that would lead one to believe he aligns with bigotry, KKK or Nazis.

Maybe if you tried more inquiring and understanding people's positions rather than playing wise professor (600 posts in a few weeks), you might be able to have more engaging discussions here.
I appreciate it, but don't worry about it. I put him on ignore. First one for me. With Toronto we may get at it some, but at least there's a level of respect. Bua has no respect for anyone from the other side.
 
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