College Football: End of an Era

[forkbeard3777]

You should be able to profit off of your abilities, period. Being a college athlete shouldn’t preclude you from doing so. If kids can rake millions for unboxing toys on YouTube, then so should Sam Hartman. If some college kid can make millions streaming himself playing video games on Twitch, then so should Audric be able to.

The “they get a full ride” argument is so tired. Look, I fully value education—especially a college education. I had a full academic ride that paid for just as much of my schools as any athlete at Indiana State. And what did I bring to the table for the university? An uncanny ability to miss way too many of my 8am classes after consuming a few dozen too many Busch Lattes.

Let the kids make scratch off their abilities and their willingness to put their bodies on the line to make literal billions for the university. The education just isn’t an equitable ROI in the year of our lord 2023.

I guess it ultimately sucks for the NIL collective / alums, boosters, and deep pocketed fans pouring money into it.

All of that money (in addition to the full ride, room and board, etc.) just to have some random, slap dick play for your school for potentially a few years, if you’re lucky. Not to mention coaching hires and buyouts.

Eventually, some major program’s boosters will say “fuck it,” we’re tapped and we’ve had enough. After that, I’ll be a snowball effect.

 

[TorontoGold]

I guess it ultimately sucks for the NIL collective / alums, boosters, and deep pocketed fans pouring money into it.

All of that money (in addition to the full ride, room and board, etc.) just to have some random, slap dick play for your school for potentially a few years, if you’re lucky. Not to mention coaching hires and buyouts.

Eventually, some major program’s boosters will say “fuck it,” we’re tapped and we’ve had enough. After that, I’ll be a snowball effect.

Is that not just....sports? Plenty of franchises have huge fanbases that routinely pay for slap dicks (see: Toronto Maple Leafs). If NIL keeps progressing there's likely going to be some sort of "fee" or at the gate type of tax that the school will charge and put into the NIL pool.

Look at all the sports gambling ads everywhere. We all know someone who's betting on tier 3 Slovenian basketball in the middle of the night. NCAA football isn't exactly the most sane group of fans.

With greater access to directly giving money to the players there's a closer connection to them than just dumping $400 into tickets for your pro team who's players may volunteer at the hospital once a year and leave the team because of the moronic ownership team.

I know the comment "well rich people didn't get rich by wasting money" will come up - there's isn't a "hustler sigma grindset mindset" that removes the wealthy class from throwing money at ridiculous things. They can take bigger risks than Joe 70K who throws down a 7 way parlay.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

I just dont see why players should get paid. I mean, you are talking about a 18 year old kid that has zero skills except for catching a football. Give them a great college education, give them some play money to take some ladies out on dates and that's it! If that isnt acceptable, then form a semi pro team and let them go to the hamburger grinder to see if they can make it to the pros. College should be about college, not the pros. Semi pro would prepare them more for a future in the pros anyway since it would be all day football without any distraction of classes (not that they go to classes anyway).

So what the talent at the college level decreases? So a kid running 4.8 instead of 4.3 is still moving pretty dang fast and if the elite isnt there anymore, everyone moves slower. Check out the football players back in the days. You had a white running back running a 5.2 yet people sat in the seats to cheer them on.

And the reference to Kylie Jenner is just icing on the cake. 0% talent with money backing her.

Sadly, we are in a time of zero character and flash in the pans.

Because they are grown ass adults who are propping up a ridiculously lucrative system. They spend more time practicing than they do in school. They can lose their scholarship to a school at the drop of a hat. It's not "why should they get paid?" it's "why should they not be paid?"

What other career forces people to work for free?
Harbaugh nailed it...utterly crushed it here:

 

[Irish#1]

You should be able to profit off of your abilities, period. Being a college athlete shouldn’t preclude you from doing so. If kids can rake millions for unboxing toys on YouTube, then so should Sam Hartman. If some college kid can make millions streaming himself playing video games on Twitch, then so should Audric be able to.

The “they get a full ride” argument is so tired. Look, I fully value education—especially a college education. I had a full academic ride that paid for just as much of my schools as any athlete at Indiana State. And what did I bring to the table for the university? An uncanny ability to miss way too many of my 8am classes after consuming a few dozen too many Busch Lattes.

Let the kids make scratch off their abilities and their willingness to put their bodies on the line to make literal billions for the university. The education just isn’t an equitable ROI in the year of our lord 2023.

Not sure what makes it so tired. It's still a valid point. I'll give you a $50K - $100K education for your athletic services. Now that kids are getting paid, should they pay for their tuition? Kids in most sports have to because the scholly's don't come close to covering tuition.

 

[Irish#1]

Because they are grown ass adults who are propping up a ridiculously lucrative system. They spend more time practicing than they do in school. They can lose their scholarship to a school at the drop of a hat. It's not "why should they get paid?" it's "why should they not be paid?"

What other career forces people to work for free?
Harbaugh nailed it...utterly crushed it here:

No one is forcing them to play a sport in college, right? They can go a more traditional route like most kids. I wonder how many would rather spend time practicing than studying. I can see that being a pretty substantial number.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

They already spend more time practicing, lifting, being in team meetings whether they want to or not. That's the primary reason for them being there in the first place. They don't have full access to the free education. They get to register for classes first, and their schedules are built around their football obligations.

They are athletes 1A and 1B, Students 2nd. It has been so for a very very long time.

 

[forkbeard3777]

Not sure what makes it so tired. It's still a valid point. I'll give you a $50K - $100K education for your athletic services. Now that kids are getting paid, should they pay for their tuition? Kids in most sports have to because the scholly's don't come close to covering tuition.

Notre Dame’s tuition for 2023 came to $62,693.00. Tack on housing, food, medical, and other miscellaneous services and fees, you’re looking at nearly $100,000 per athlete. Scholarships are renewed annually, so a 4-year athlete is receiving approximately $400,000 of value.

I’d imagine Notre Dame is somewhat stingy with academic scholarships — offering partials to students more deserving, academically, of a full ride. I’d also imagine a plethora of the student athletes wouldn’t be admitted but for being an elite athlete.

So, it isn’t some form of indentured servitude. They are receiving a tremendous benefit.

I do believe they should receive some additional compensation, but right now, paying players has turned into the Wild West with little to no guidance or regulation. It’s certainly an open, free market, as for many recruits and transfers, it’s turned to “highest bidder” as opposed to where’s the best fit for the athlete. It’ll hurt many more in the long run.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

Notre Dame’s tuition for 2023 came to $62,693.00. Tack on housing, food, medical, and other miscellaneous services and fees, you’re looking at nearly $100,000 per athlete. Scholarships are renewed annually, so a 4-year athlete is receiving approximately $400,000 of value.

I’d imagine Notre Dame is somewhat stingy with academic scholarships — offering partials to students more deserving, academically, of a full ride. I’d also imagine a plethora of the student athletes wouldn’t be admitted but for being an elite athlete.

So, it isn’t some form of indentured servitude. They are receiving a tremendous benefit.

I do believe they should receive some additional compensation, but right now, paying players has turned into the Wild West with little to no guidance or regulation. It’s certainly an open, free market, as for many recruits and transfers, it’s turned to “highest bidder” as opposed to where’s the best fit for the athlete. It’ll hurt many more in the long run.

scholarships are certainly part of compensation, but let's not pretend that is pay...and let's not pretend that the cost is that high for college. If you are a well-to-do family, sure you pay a bit more...but most folks pay half that price at most schools. We are a Top5% income family and my daughter got into 7 Private Liberal Arts schools, all top50...3 were top20..only one asked for more than 32k.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with them going to the highest bidder. If that is what they are worth, then why should they be denied that? They are adults who are putting their bodies on the line and dedicating the better part of their lives to the teams.

Misguided paternalism is merely misguided.

 

[LOVEMYIRISH]

No one is forcing them to play a sport in college, right? They can go a more traditional route like most kids. I wonder how many would rather spend time practicing than studying. I can see that being a pretty substantial number.

No one is forcing the schools to pay the players. The can go a more traditional route like most schools. I wonder how many schools would rather spend time focusing on academics rather than sports. I can see that being...uh...well, it seems to be very small.

No one is forcing schools to make so much money and make this a year round business, yet they do. The players are merely the talent. No school has to pay the players. If this is a bad idea, then simply don't pay the players. I promise you that if ND doesn't pay them, they will still find players who love the game.

 

[TorontoGold]

No one is forcing them to play a sport in college, right? They can go a more traditional route like most kids. I wonder how many would rather spend time practicing than studying. I can see that being a pretty substantial number.

How do you think that would play out lol

"Hey take a hike you selfish pricks!"

*Schools lose incredible amounts of money*

*Alums would certainly not be ok with this strategy. Look at the comments made on IE when ND admin hinted at going the Ivy League route*

"Ok, well at least we told those kids to stick it because of AmAtEuRisM"

In what world would that ever make sense lmao.

 

[stlnd01]

If the tuition/scholarship is to be legitimately considered part of the equation - which personally I think it should, given the cost of college and the fact that most college football players will never really make a living in the pros; a full scholarship is a great opportunity that I would love for my kids someday - then the schools have to be held more accountable for delivering on their end of the bargain.

Actual penalties for low graduation rates. Four-year scholarships/no "processing" kids. In-person (not online) classes in legit majors. Etc. A few schools (Notre Dame) try and do this. But most don't, and it's real easy to be cynical about the entire concept of "student-athletes" when even the schools themselves give no shits about the "student" part.

Beyond that, I'd say a reasonable (five-figure) stipend for student-athletes in revenue sports, and then whatever they can get on the real NIL market (outside endorsements not just payments from boosters) is completely fair, given that football players are the labor that undergirds the entire industry of college football.

But if you're not going to go full professional, you have to start by providing players a real education.

 

[Irish#1]

Notre Dame’s tuition for 2023 came to $62,693.00. Tack on housing, food, medical, and other miscellaneous services and fees, you’re looking at nearly $100,000 per athlete. Scholarships are renewed annually, so a 4-year athlete is receiving approximately $400,000 of value.

I’d imagine Notre Dame is somewhat stingy with academic scholarships — offering partials to students more deserving, academically, of a full ride. I’d also imagine a plethora of the student athletes wouldn’t be admitted but for being an elite athlete.

So, it isn’t some form of indentured servitude. They are receiving a tremendous benefit.

I do believe they should receive some additional compensation, but right now, paying players has turned into the Wild West with little to no guidance or regulation. It’s certainly an open, free market, as for many recruits and transfers, it’s turned to “highest bidder” as opposed to where’s the best fit for the athlete. It’ll hurt many more in the long run.

ND is certainly higher, but I was thinking about schools in general.

 

[Irish#1]

No one is forcing the schools to pay the players. The can go a more traditional route like most schools. I wonder how many schools would rather spend time focusing on academics rather than sports. I can see that being...uh...well, it seems to be very small.

No one is forcing schools to make so much money and make this a year round business, yet they do. The players are merely the talent. No school has to pay the players. If this is a bad idea, then simply don't pay the players. I promise you that if ND doesn't pay them, they will still find players who love the game.

How do you think that would play out lol

"Hey take a hike you selfish pricks!"

*Schools lose incredible amounts of money*

*Alums would certainly not be ok with this strategy. Look at the comments made on IE when ND admin hinted at going the Ivy League route*

"Ok, well at least we told those kids to stick it because of AmAtEuRisM"

In what world would that ever make sense lmao.

Schools aren't forced to pay players, but that doesn't mean kids have a right to play. Like I said no one is forcing them to take this path. Having said that, if you go back in this thread, you'll see I don't have a problem with kids getting money. I'm simply pointing out that there are some valid arguments on both sides and like StlND01 said, the vast majority will not have a pro career or nothing more than a cup of coffee so whatever they earn isn't going to last very long. Isn't that where the education comes in?

 

[KMac151993]

I think that they should remove athletic scholarships

 

[Ndaccountant]

I think that they should remove athletic scholarships

I would tweak versus get rid of. The tweak would be defined length that is enforceable both ways. At the end of the period, they could renew or leave. It would still allow for freedom of movement via the transfer portal, but it would at least give coaches the ability to plan the roster more efficiently. Example, Joe 5 star might get a 3 year scholarship and Tim 3 star gets a 1 year. At least it would be more clear on who is leaving.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

A guy like Ashton Craig isn't getting the NIL opportunity that Sam Hartman is.

Now imagine what it is like at other programs. There are plenty of kids at CU that don't wear Rolex and drive Bentleys.

The education component of this died a very long time ago, and as ND fans perhaps we've been in a bubble about the actual extent of that, but the full scholarship to receive a degree aspect of this was buried long ago. It became less about education and more about profit. Then nine SCOTUS Justices told the NCAA what most already knew: your business model is complete bullshit.

 

[irishjim]

I don't think the money is the issue in college sports. I believe the bigger crisis is the fact that players can leave in a minute or opt out without any repercussion. Coaches have buyouts. I think players should have buyouts too. Say Alabama wants a player from Illinois..they (school or NIL collective) have to pay Illinois for that player to transfer and get out of scholarship. This essentially makes players employees but I don't really see how to fix the system another way.

 

[forkbeard3777]

Also posted in the SEC thread, but relevant to the topic - Kiffin is notoriously brazen and a proud "troll", but God, this is just an unfortunate tweet made mere minutes after Saban's retirement was announced. Make no mistake, the sport was never "pure", but this your new college football, ladies and gentlemen. #TransferToTheSip

 

[dublinirish]

Also posted in the SEC thread, but relevant to the topic - Kiffin is notoriously brazen and a proud "troll", but God, this is just an unfortunate tweet made mere minutes after Saban's retirement was announced. Make no mistake, the sport was never "pure", but this your new college football, ladies and gentlemen. #TransferToTheSip

well he just took a huge L when Judkins basically told the CFB world Ole Miss couldn't afford his wages. Kiffin trying to save face here and keep Ole Miss as an attractive transfer destination

 

[ndfanatic78]

Not sure what makes it so tired. It's still a valid point. I'll give you a $50K - $100K education for your athletic services. Now that kids are getting paid, should they pay for their tuition? Kids in most sports have to because the scholly's don't come close to covering tuition.

They aren't being paid directly by the schools. They are getting paid outside the school for services rendered in this case NIL, just like any other scholarship student can. Why just because they are athletes should they be denied this ability?

 

[ndfanatic78]

I don't think the money is the issue in college sports. I believe the bigger crisis is the fact that players can leave in a minute or opt out without any repercussion. Coaches have buyouts. I think players should have buyouts too. Say Alabama wants a player from Illinois..they (school or NIL collective) have to pay Illinois for that player to transfer and get out of scholarship. This essentially makes players employees but I don't really see how to fix the system another way.

This only works if they are given 4 yr scholarship guarantees. If the scholarship is only for 1 yr and the school and can choose to not extend it then the student should also have the option to not extend and transfer to any other school they choose.

 

[ndfanatic78]

I think that they should remove athletic scholarships

For all athletes? This would kill all college athletics outside of football and basketball and even those would be reduced greatly.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

scholarships are certainly part of compensation, but let's not pretend that is pay...and let's not pretend that the cost is that high for college. If you are a well-to-do family, sure you pay a bit more...but most folks pay half that price at most schools. We are a Top5% income family and my daughter got into 7 Private Liberal Arts schools, all top50...3 were top20..only one asked for more than 32k.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with them going to the highest bidder. If that is what they are worth, then why should they be denied that? They are adults who are putting their bodies on the line and dedicating the better part of their lives to the teams.

Misguided paternalism is merely misguided.

I know people who had only 50k in loans and between working their way up in fields that have long tails in the pay-experience graphs, and starting families, they've been paying them off for nearly 20 years. This was after using the GI bill to cover undergrad and only taking loans for grad schools.

I don't know what your background is but 100k+ of loans isn't super easy to pay off for 90-95% of the population. It should 100% be factored into the equation as 'pay' and the relative value of the degree after attainment should be factored in by smart families. There exists a line where a college can equip you with a high chance of success in your given sport and a high chance of success in life. Those are truly the most unique opportunities for athletes.

Bad paternalism is telling a player to go to the highest bidder if they are forfeiting other opportunities that could improve their life even more (or improve the % chance of a good life). This isn't a single variable decision. And acting like going to the highest bidder is the supreme consideration for a 'well-guided paternalism' is equally misguided. Completely free markets disintegrate over time. There must be rules or laws added to pressurize the market when we see exploitation or danger of abuse. Also, we tend to see a small number of companies thrive as they grow bigger, choking out the competition merely due to the cost of entry. We might see this where there isn't 1 or 2 monopolies but there might be 15-20 schools that take 90% of the playoff spots over the next 2 decades.

All that to say, it'd be great if we had a thoughtful governing body who could work on crafting laws to respond to the current situation. And I'm all for supremely talented people being rewarded for their talents but the system in it's current state is flawed and rife with abuse.

 

[TorontoGold]

Schools aren't forced to pay players, but that doesn't mean kids have a right to play. Like I said no one is forcing them to take this path. Having said that, if you go back in this thread, you'll see I don't have a problem with kids getting money. I'm simply pointing out that there are some valid arguments on both sides and like StlND01 said, the vast majority will not have a pro career or nothing more than a cup of coffee so whatever they earn isn't going to last very long. Isn't that where the education comes in?

The nobody is forcing them agreement doesn't work though. Without extrapolating this to non-football areas of society - why should Notre Dame upgrade the Gug? The team is still operating well now, why should they go forward with improvements? Because it's what other modern institutions are doing and it's what a well oiled football program should do. Why don't NFL players go play in the CFL if they don't like the wages being offered during contract negotiations? Nobody is forcing them to play in the NFL.

The education aspect is good and a nice part of the compensation, a student on a full ride is subject to requirements to fulfill their academic obligations - a football player obviously has different academic standards, but the difference between the two students doesn't equal the value generated for the institution from football.

 

[IAIrish]

I guess it ultimately sucks for the NIL collective / alums, boosters, and deep pocketed fans pouring money into it.

All of that money (in addition to the full ride, room and board, etc.) just to have some random, slap dick play for your school for potentially a few years, if you’re lucky. Not to mention coaching hires and buyouts.

Eventually, some major program’s boosters will say “fuck it,” we’re tapped and we’ve had enough. After that, I’ll be a snowball effect.

So be it. I'll shed no tears for any of those people. Free will my man.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Think about it, T. All those years ago, nobody would have bothered SMU. It would have all been legal shit they did.

 

[Irish#1]

For all athletes? This would kill all college athletics outside of football and basketball and even those would be reduced greatly.

Most kids getting scholarships in sports besides FB & BB aren't getting much of a scholarship. Full rides are almost nonexistent in the non-revenue sports. We had a three time state wrestling camp at our HS. He got a scholly to wrestle at Purdue. His was $3,000.

 

[KMac151993]

Most kids getting scholarships in sports besides FB & BB aren't getting much of a scholarship. Full rides are almost nonexistent in the non-revenue sports. We had a three time state wrestling camp at our HS. He got a scholly to wrestle at Purdue. His was $3,000.

Right...so eliminate athletic scholarships for football and basketball completely. If you want to use the platform you pay your way.

 

[IrishinSyria]

of all the problems with the commercialization of college football, a few select players getting paid some fraction of their market value is literally the lowest on the list.

 

[TorontoGold]

of all the problems with the commercialization of college football, a few select players getting paid some fraction of their market value is literally the lowest on the list.

***Photo shoots for recruits.