Independence

[Lberry]

This topic is sprinkled everywhere so figured it could have it's own thread. I probably feel stronger than any that Independence needs to die and die fast, so I'll quickly outline my support of "why":

- Conference affiliated refereeing is seeming more and more one sided as time goes on.

- BYE weeks and scheduling. Last year we played into 7 BYE weeks (insane), this week we have murders row through 8 games before a break, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks time. That can't be by design so it's screwed us this year again. Next year and beyond we're forced to play 1st round playoff games, and while that has no one's hair on fire yet, if/when we'd have otherwise earned that BYE, we will all be losing our minds, and rightfully so.

- Our rivals are either in the BIG 10 (USC) or are plain boring. I'll concede that Navy may be unmoveable but Stanford is the most uninteresting "rival" of any major program and we're keeping that program alive. Let that program die.

- Conference championship weekend is awesome, and can work for or against us. This one is subjective but I personally love that weekend of CFB and want ND to be part of it. It kind of sucks being done with the year and nothing to play for half way into the season.

- The revenue is lopsided and will continue to expand. I don't know the exact numbers but believe we sacrifice ~20% of revenue per year compared to Rutgers Big 10 agreement. How does that help us? ND puts it's football program through enough self-imposed abuse. The least they can do is acknowledge the times and let this pseudo-advantagd that once made sense, evolve.

Needing it to recruit CA or the greater West coast is a myth. Michigan over the past 5 classes has signed the same amount of CA players as ND (10), and if you include other Pac 12 states, they signed 8 additional to ND's 7 over the past 5 years.

Curious what the best arguments "for" independence are going forward.

 

[TNUtoNotreDame]

Ah, home...

 

[Gold1]

This topic is sprinkled everywhere so figured it could have it's own thread. I probably feel stronger than any that Independence needs to die and die fast, so I'll quickly outline my support of "why":

- Conference affiliated refereeing is seeming more and more one sided as time goes on.

- BYE weeks and scheduling. Last year we played into 7 BYE weeks (insane), this week we have murders row through 8 games before a break, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks time. That can't be by design so it's screwed us this year again. Next year and beyond we're forced to play 1st round playoff games, and while that has no one's hair on fire yet, if/when we'd have otherwise earned that BYE, we will all be losing our minds, and rightfully so.

- Our rivals are either in the BIG 10 (USC) or are plain boring. I'll concede that Navy may be unmoveable but Stanford is the most uninteresting "rival" of any major program and we're keeping that program alive. Let that program die.

- Conference championship weekend is awesome, and can work for or against us. This one is subjective but I personally love that weekend of CFB and want ND to be part of it. It kind of sucks being done with the year and nothing to play for half way into the season.

- The revenue is lopsided and will continue to expand. I don't know the exact numbers but believe we sacrifice ~20% of revenue per year compared to Rutgers Big 10 agreement. How does that help us? ND puts it's football program through enough self-imposed abuse. The least they can do is acknowledge the times and let this pseudo-advantagd that once made sense, evolve.

Curious what the best arguments "for" independence are going forward.

Amen. This is not 100, 50, or even 20 years ago.
Landscape has changed. Time to get on board to compete on level playing field. Independence is no longer needed to facilitate a national footprint.

 

[Lberry]

Amen. This is not 100, 50, or even 20 years ago.
Landscape has changed. Time to get on board to compete on level playing field. Independence is no longer needed to facilitate a national footprint.

Agree. But it's more than "no longer helps", I think it downright hurts us every year from here on out.

 

[Giddyup]

I ain’t joining the conference hooligans/peasants and reducing our unique exposure

 

[stlnd01]

I think the 12-team playoff will shake things up again, de-emphasizing conference championship weekend, for instance (and thus our absence from it) and giving us a far easier path to the playoff than we have now.

But no at this point I don’t really see any clear benefits to us not joining the B1G.

 

[Lberry]

I ain’t joining the conference hooligans/peasants and reducing our unique exposure

What is unique about ND football these days?

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

 

[NDohio]

I think it would be a mistake to join a conference at this time. There is still a lot of instability in the conferences. hat is going to happen with the ACC? Are the SEC and B1G finished expanding? Will the PAC even exist? How does the new playoff format change conference alignment?

When the time comes for ND to join a conference the choice of which conference to be a part of will be ND's choice. They all will want ND to be a part of their conference.

 

[Lberry]

I think it would be a mistake to join a conference at this time. There is still a lot of instability in the conferences. hat is going to happen with the ACC? Are the SEC and B1G finished expanding? Will the PAC even exist? How does the new playoff format change conference alignment?

When the time comes for ND to join a conference the choice of which conference to be a part of will be ND's choice. They all will want ND to be a part of their conference.

Couldn't that easily be written into our agreement? For ex, this affiliation is good through 2030 assuming FSU and Clemson remain as part of ACC. If not, our affiliation ends unless and agreed upon replacement is added? These should be easy to contract around.. Regardless, Big 10 is probably the choice and is clearly stable.

 

[NDPhilly]

USC, 1-2 of Clemson/FSU/Miami, and one other "premier" team (this year was OSU, next year is A&M) is a perfectly good schedule model.

They fucked up by not having a bye week, but no one could have expected Duke and Louisville to both be top 25 teams this year. Just awful luck. Plus, TSU, Navy, and CMU aren't exactly "world beaters" - we had starters out early in each. Not like we played 8 straight P5 teams.

 

[Lberry]

USC, 1-2 of Clemson/FSU/Miami, and one other "premier" team (this year was OSU, next year is A&M) is a perfectly good schedule model.

They fucked up by not having a bye week, but no one could have expected Duke and Louisville to both be top 25 teams this year. Just awful luck. Plus, TSU, Navy, and CMU aren't exactly "world beaters" - we had starters out early in each. Not like we played 8 straight P5 teams.

So you can talk yourself into bad luck this year. What about last year, and every year going forward?

 

[notredomer23]

Give me the BIG. Natural rivalries, geographically makes sense for Olympic sports outside of a couple weird west coast trips, and would effectively flip the sport from the current model to the two conference model it's been trending.

While I passively want the BIG, I don't think it's overly imperative with a 12 team playoff unless ND starts getting shut out from scheduling. 11-1 ND will always be one of the top 6 at large bids, and 10-2 may as well depending on the schedule. I doubt an 11-1 ND team that loses its conference championship game is in the playoff, whereas independent 11-1 is always in. I personally don't want to see 9-3 or 8-4 conference champions make the playoff but here we are.

 

[NumbersGuy0520]

I will die on the “the slightly easier path to the playoffs by remaining independent doesn’t nearly outweigh the added difficulty of being forced to go 3-0 in the playoffs” hill. I’m amazed that there aren’t more talking about this than the few in this thread.

I’m not even fully sold on the first half of the above statement (that the path to the playoffs will be easier remaining independent). Many conference schedules are honestly a joke compared to what we play. If we’re in the Big 10 West this year, there’s a very real shot we’re undefeated or 1-loss right now (most years - sorry Iowa, Wisconsin, etc).

The thing that I see most in these forums is a general unrest, where many want to finally see ND get over the jump and win a national championship - sorry if I don’t think that automatically resigning ourselves to three straight playoff wins, when we’ve never even won one, fits into the solution.

 

[Giddyup]

Losers

 

[NDpendent]

ND has the largest brand in college football, we don't need any tyrannical conference to dictate our every move. WE ARE ND. We aren't a bunch of sheep, we are MF lions.

 

[notredomer23]

ND has the largest brand in college football, we don't need any tyrannical conference to dictate our every move. WE ARE ND. We aren't a bunch of sheep, we are MF lions.

Username checks out

 

[stpeteirish]

This topic is sprinkled everywhere so figured it could have it's own thread. I probably feel stronger than any that Independence needs to die and die fast, so I'll quickly outline my support of "why":

- Conference affiliated refereeing is seeming more and more one sided as time goes on.

- BYE weeks and scheduling. Last year we played into 7 BYE weeks (insane), this week we have murders row through 8 games before a break, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks time. That can't be by design so it's screwed us this year again. Next year and beyond we're forced to play 1st round playoff games, and while that has no one's hair on fire yet, if/when we'd have otherwise earned that BYE, we will all be losing our minds, and rightfully so.

- Our rivals are either in the BIG 10 (USC) or are plain boring. I'll concede that Navy may be unmoveable but Stanford is the most uninteresting "rival" of any major program and we're keeping that program alive. Let that program die.

- Conference championship weekend is awesome, and can work for or against us. This one is subjective but I personally love that weekend of CFB and want ND to be part of it. It kind of sucks being done with the year and nothing to play for half way into the season.

- The revenue is lopsided and will continue to expand. I don't know the exact numbers but believe we sacrifice ~20% of revenue per year compared to Rutgers Big 10 agreement. How does that help us? ND puts it's football program through enough self-imposed abuse. The least they can do is acknowledge the times and let this pseudo-advantagd that once made sense, evolve.

Curious what the best arguments "for" independence are going forward.

Your point on the byes "can't be by design" is wrong. We can play Central Michigan whenever the hell we want. We put them where we did because we underestimated the difficulty of 8 in a row, probably because Duke and Lousville aren't usually good enough to beat us.

 

[T-Boone]

This topic is sprinkled everywhere so figured it could have it's own thread. I probably feel stronger than any that Independence needs to die and die fast, so I'll quickly outline my support of "why":

- Conference affiliated refereeing is seeming more and more one sided as time goes on.

- BYE weeks and scheduling. Last year we played into 7 BYE weeks (insane), this week we have murders row through 8 games before a break, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks time. That can't be by design so it's screwed us this year again. Next year and beyond we're forced to play 1st round playoff games, and while that has no one's hair on fire yet, if/when we'd have otherwise earned that BYE, we will all be losing our minds, and rightfully so.

- Our rivals are either in the BIG 10 (USC) or are plain boring. I'll concede that Navy may be unmoveable but Stanford is the most uninteresting "rival" of any major program and we're keeping that program alive. Let that program die.

- Conference championship weekend is awesome, and can work for or against us. This one is subjective but I personally love that weekend of CFB and want ND to be part of it. It kind of sucks being done with the year and nothing to play for half way into the season.

- The revenue is lopsided and will continue to expand. I don't know the exact numbers but believe we sacrifice ~20% of revenue per year compared to Rutgers Big 10 agreement. How does that help us? ND puts it's football program through enough self-imposed abuse. The least they can do is acknowledge the times and let this pseudo-advantagd that once made sense, evolve.

Curious what the best arguments "for" independence are going forward.

I don’t necessarily agree but good post. How have you got thread making powers though?

 

[GATTACA!]

I will die on the “the slightly easier path to the playoffs by remaining independent doesn’t nearly outweigh the added difficulty of being forced to go 3-0 in the playoffs” hill. I’m amazed that there aren’t more talking about this than the few in this thread.

I’m not even fully sold on the first half of the above statement (that the path to the playoffs will be easier remaining independent). Many conference schedules are honestly a joke compared to what we play. If we’re in the Big 10 West this year, there’s a very real shot we’re undefeated or 1-loss right now (most years - sorry Iowa, Wisconsin, etc).

The thing that I see most in these forums is a general unrest, where many want to finally see ND get over the jump and win a national championship - sorry if I don’t think that automatically resigning ourselves to three straight playoff wins, when we’ve never even won one, fits into the solution.

You're not considering all of the scenarios.

Take this year as an example. We're 10-2. If we don't make the B1G CCG we can hypothetically get in as an at large just like we can now as an independent. Say we do sneak into the CCG. Now we have to play OSU/Michigan. If we lose we're out of the playoffs entirely, if we win we likely still aren't top 4 and have to play the extra first round playoff game anyways.

First round games will on average be easier than CCGs and have the possibility of being home games.

As an independent we'll play 3 playoff games no matter what.
If we join a conference best case scenario is 3 games and worse case is 4.

 

[DillonHall]

Your point on the byes "can't be by design" is wrong. We can play Central Michigan whenever the hell we want. We put them where we did because we underestimated the difficulty of 8 in a row, probably because Duke and Lousville aren't usually good enough to beat u

So you think Swarbrick and Freeman wanted bye weeks after USC and Clemson three weeks apart?

 

[stlnd01]

Your point on the byes "can't be by design" is wrong. We can play Central Michigan whenever the hell we want. We put them where we did because we underestimated the difficulty of 8 in a row, probably because Duke and Lousville aren't usually good enough to beat us.

We and Louisville both had this past weekend off. Had we put our foot down we probably could’ve moved that game back two weeks and had a bye before USC.

But, then you have a four-game stretch of USC, @Louisville, Pitt, @Clemson. Is that better? Maybe. You do avoid the two road games back to back. But also hard to know beforehand whether Louisville or Pitt is going to be the better team. Or that Duke is going to leave you so depleted.

A lot of scheduling is a crapshoot.

 

[FDNYIrish1]

The topic is sprinkled everywhere because you’ve sprinkled it everywhere. Like Hermey the Elf, Independent.

 

[Coachstradamus]

- BYE weeks and scheduling. Last year we played into 7 BYE weeks (insane), this week we have murders row through 8 games before a break, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks time. That can't be by design so it's screwed us this year again. Next year and beyond we're forced to play 1st round playoff games, and while that has no one's hair on fire yet, if/when we'd have otherwise earned that BYE, we will all be losing our minds, and rightfully so.

We are not the only team that went 8 games without a bye, multiple P5 teams did that including Alabama.

- Our rivals are either in the BIG 10 (USC) or are plain boring. I'll concede that Navy may be unmoveable but Stanford is the most uninteresting "rival" of any major program and we're keeping that program alive. Let that program die.

Dropping Stanford doesn't require joining a conference. I support dropping Stanford, but I'm guessing part of the reason that rivalry hasn't died is the fact that it guarantees a game on the West coast ever year for recruiting.

- Conference championship weekend is awesome, and can work for or against us. This one is subjective but I personally love that weekend of CFB and want ND to be part of it. It kind of sucks being done with the year and nothing to play for half way into the season.

Nothing to play for, how about the playoffs? 12 teams come next year, we'd still be in the hunt with our current record.

Curious what the best arguments "for" independence are going forward.

History and tradition. If those things should mean something to any program, it should be Notre Dame.

 

[T-Boone]

So you think Swarbrick and Freeman wanted bye weeks after USC and Clemson three weeks apart?

That is legit a question that the media should be asking freeman every opportunity they get. If It was by choice heads should roll.

 

[Lberry]

We are not the only team that went 8 games without a bye, multiple P5 teams did that including Alabama.

Dropping Stanford doesn't require joining a conference. I support dropping Stanford, but I'm guessing part of the reason that rivalry hasn't died is the fact that it guarantees a game on the West coast ever year for recruiting.

Nothing to play for, how about the playoffs? 12 teams come next year, we'd still be in the hunt with our current record.

History and tradition. If those things should mean something to any program, it should be Notre Dame.

In order: 1)How many other teams went 8 games, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks?

#2 Is irrelevant, unless you think Stanford game is a stronghold to our independence (which you don't think that), so nothing to respond to on #2.

#3) After week 6 our season was over. Nothing can be won, no concerence title or NC. Fast forward to next year, same concept, what happens when we lose '1 too many games'. LSU lost two as early as us and they have both a Conference title and a NC to play for - because their conference title puts the in the playoff. Must be nice...

#4 (history and tradition). This is where everyone inevitably lands who defends independence and its a non-answer. We've always done it so must always do it? There's too much counting against it for that to be a good argument. Play USC? Check, already built it now. Play Navy? Easy - they'll take that game every year (and if Navy doesn't, so be it).

 

[Giddyup]

These losers are living in the past. Nothing will hold us back as long as we only have 2-3 losses in a year.

 

[NDpendent]

In order: 1)How many other teams went 8 games, then have 2 BYEs in 4 weeks?

#2 Is irrelevant, unless you think Stanford game is a stronghold to our independence (which you don't think that), so nothing to respond to on #2.

#3) After week 6 our season is over. Nothing can be won, no concerence title or NC. Fast forward to next year, same concept, what happens when we lose '1 too many games'. LSU lost two as early as us and they have both a Conference title and a NC to play for - because their conference title puts the in the playoff. Must be nice...

#4 (history and tradition). This is where everyone inevitably lands who defends independence and its a non-answer. We've always done it so must always do it? There's too much counting against it for that to be a good argument. Play USC? Check, already built it now. Play Navy? Easy - they'll take that game every year (and if Navy doesn't, so be it).

Nah, the biggest reason is flexibility. And flexibility covers multiple areas. Ultimately ND doesn't want to be dictated on what they can do. They want flexibility in their schedule and in their media rights. They want to play on the national stage every week. No one else has a TV deal like ND. No matter where you are in the country you can count of ND being on TV. Having that much coverage is priceless and I think being in charge of your own schedule is priceless too.

 

[Giddyup]

If we have to play at Rutgers or Maryland I’m gonna be pissed.

 

[Giddyup]

Screw these big conglomerate conferences