'24 IL DL Justin Scott (Miami [FL] Verbal)

[Katzenboyer]

Correct, you said he recruited like dogshit since 2016. So, I'm glad we both accept that statement was ludicrous and wrong.

Again, you said recruit and then go on to list why Washington isn't getting enough out of a bunch of 4 star guys. Sounds like a Washington problem, if that's the case, and not an Elston problem.

Cool, I'll play by those rules as well and Washington hasn't recruited a single player to ND and he is fucking awful. You know, because Freeman landed all of those guys.

Two really good players since 2016 qualifies as "non-dogshit"? Wish I had been graded on your curve.

Where do I say that Washington isn't getting enough out of four star guys? We're really going to fault Washington for Aidan, Lacey, Mills, and Rubio even though each of those guys had more time with Elston than AW?

You're also going to completely ignore Wardlow, Ehrensberger, Schweitzer, and Aupui, eh?

 

[Dale]

I’ve already done this argument elsewhere, but it’s topical considering it’s in Justin Scott’s thread and the importance there. Just because Elston landed a 4 star recruit doesn’t mean he recruited at a College Football Playoff level and left that to Washington.

There are far too many undersized and/or developmental prospects. Howard Cross is the perfect example. Good recruit? Yes. Good player? Yes. Ceiling on that? 100000%. And Elston’s recruiting elsewhere (1 Tech) has now forced Cross to play out of his position, capping it even more. Again exactly why this is unfolding in Justin Scott’s thread. Nobody denies that Elston could recruit and develop a good DL. But I thought we were all rowing the boat in the same direction that this team under Freeman has even higher aspirations. And while a 4 star, some of Elston’s recruits simply cannot reach that level.

Any suggestion of well that’s a new guy problem if they can’t get more out of certain guys is incredibly and intentionally disingenuous for much of the roster

 

[Crazy Balki]

Foskey is an absolute home run. No doubt about it. Jayson A too. But both of those guys were were in the 2018 and 2019 classes. We're in a weak position going into next year because Elston didn't recruit, "hit on" or develop players like those guys in the years to come, and we're at a depth disadvantage because of it heading into next season.

• Lacey? Gone.
• Nana? Flashed this year, which Washington deserves credit for.
• Spears? Moved to OL in 2020, medically retired in 2021, a year before Elston left.
• Cross has been forced to play out of position at nose tackle this year because of the lackluster recruiting on Elston's part in the time before he left.
• Botelho has flashed, but it took him until the end of this year to do so (again, credit to Washington perhaps?)
• Mills is a solid player but hasn't been a difference maker and has been forced to play out of position.
• Same for Rubio.
• The jury is still out on Ford and Gobaira, but I count both as Freeman guys (see below) and ownership of their development rests on Washinton.

You also conveniently omit any mention of some MAJOR whiffs that took place on Elston's watch. Kofi Wardlow, Alex Ehrensberger, Will Schweitzer, and Devin Aupui are huge misses, and a big reason why the DL is thin headed into next season.

Finally, forgive me if I'm not going to give credit to Elston for 22 and 23 when it's clear that those classes are the work of MF, a fact made evident by Elston simply not getting guys like the DL in both those classes before MF arrived. In the three classes prior to MF's arrival (going by Rivals rankings), ND didn't land a single front seven player on the DL ranked in the national top 100. MF has landed three of those guys in 22 and 23.

Mike Elston was a great DL coach. He is significantly overrated as an evaluator and recruiter.

I suppose Rubio hasn't been a major difference maker, but I wouldn't say he's out of position. Dude is a pretty textbook nose at 6'5 300 as a sophomore. He's still young and is just starting to emerge, so there's a very realistic chance he makes that next step and is the guy at nose. There's also Keanaaina, who if he has fully recovered from his injury, could be a very reliable part of the rotation at nose, given his size at 6'3 320. He was discussed as a guy who was moving up the chart prior to his injury. Those two, if healthy, can make for a good tandem at nose.

I think with Mills and Cross, it had more to do with the fact that they were good players and difference makers, so they needed to be on the field, but both were primarily 3T and they had Ademilola there already. I don't think there's any doubt that Cross is going to play 3T next year, if not full time, a huge percentage of his time there. Not as high on Mills at SDE, but you never know, especially since it was his first year over there.

I think Elston's recruiting wasn't up to par for what we needed. I wouldn't consider it "dog shit". It wasn't good enough though.

And I'm not sure it's quite time to completely write off Ehrensberger completely. We knew he was going to be a multi-year project. This offseason is going to be crucial for him.

Overall, I think it being year one and ND going in a different direction in terms of DL made this a less than seamless transition for a lot of guys. But there's definitely guys there for the '23 unit to be more than simply respectable.

 

[Katzenboyer]

I suppose Rubio hasn't been a major difference maker, but I wouldn't say he's out of position. Dude is a pretty textbook nose at 6'5 300 as a sophomore. He's still young and is just starting to emerge, so there's a very realistic chance he makes that next step and is the guy at nose. There's also Keanaaina, who if he has fully recovered from his injury, could be a very reliable part of the rotation at nose, given his size at 6'3 320. He was discussed as a guy who was moving up the chart prior to his injury. Those two, if healthy, can make for a good tandem at nose.

I think with Spears and Cross, it had more to do with the fact that they were good players and difference makers, so they needed to be on the field, but both were primarily 3T and they had Ademilola there already. I don't think there's any doubt that Cross is going to play 3T next year, if not full time, a huge percentage of his time there. Not as high on Mills at SDE, but you never know, especially since it was his first year over there.

I think Elston's recruiting wasn't up to par for what we needed. I wouldn't consider it "dog shit". It wasn't good enough though.

And I'm not sure it's quite time to completely write off Ehrensberger completely. We knew he was going to be a multi-year project. This offseason is going to be crucial for him.

Overall, I think it being year one and ND going in a different direction in terms of DL made this a less than seamless transition for a lot of guys. But there's definitely guys there for the '23 unit to be more than simply respectable.

Sorry, my comments about Rubio were about him being a solid player, but not a difference maker.

The only two "difference makers" Elston pulled since 2017? Jayson A and Foskey. That's five classes.

In comparison, Gilmore pulled Julian O, Ade, Tillery, and Kareem in the two classes preceding Elston taking over the DL. That's four impact guys in two years, and you can draw a straight line from having those guys on the roster to the 33 games the program won between 2018 - 2020.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I haven't looked into the matter enough to have a strong opinion on Elston, however, Gilmore is absolutely a guy who should be getting a lot more credit in hindsight (though I'm not sure how to divvy up credit for Tillery's recruitment).

 

[Crazy Balki]

Sorry, my comments about Rubio were about him being a solid player, but not a difference maker.

The only two "difference makers" Elston pulled since 2017? Justin A and Howard Cross since 2017. That's five classes.

In comparison, Gilmore pulled Julian O, Ade, Tillery, and Kareem in the two classes preceding Elston taking over the DL. That's three impact guys in two years, and you can draw a straight line from having those guys on the roster to the 33 games the program won between 2018 - 2020.

Foskey?

While I do agree that Gilmore pulled a lot of difference makers, none of those guys mentioned became difference makers until they became upperclassmen.

Kareem and Okwara flashed as sophomores, but then emerged as difference makers as juniors. Ade had to wait his turn to become a difference maker in 2020, as a 5th year after sitting behind Kareem in 2017, 18 and 19. Tillery played in 2015 and 2016, but he was really disappointing as a sophomore. Emerged as a junior.

So it's probably a bit early to write off guys like Rubio, Botelho, NaNa and Mills among others. Many of them had to wait their turn sitting behind other difference makers or are still younger and need more time to develop.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Foskey?

While I do agree that Gilmore pulled a lot of difference makers, none of those guys mentioned became difference makers until they became upperclassmen.

Kareem and Okwara flashed as sophomores, but then emerged as difference makers as juniors. Ade had to wait his turn to become a difference maker in 2020, as a 5th year after sitting behind Kareem in 2017, 18 and 19. Tillery played in 2015 and 2016, but he was really disappointing as a sophomore. Emerged as a junior.

So it's probably a bit early to write off guys like Rubio, Botelho, NaNa and Mills among others. Many of them had to wait their turn sitting behind other difference makers or are still younger and need more time to develop.

1. Cross was listed by mistake. Meant Foskey, and original post has been changed.

2. Your points about KK, JO and JT are well taken. Which is why I said that Elston was a wonderful position coach, but a poor talent evaluator. He gets credit for their development; but he didn't bring them into the program, Gilmore did.

3. I'm not writing off the four guys you mentioned. But with the position left us in, those guys either a) HAVE TO hit, or b) we'll need to rely on underclassmen, the transfer portal, or a combination of both.

ND should be in a position where the 2015 and 2016 DL classes are the norm, not the exception. 2022 and 2023 is a positive step. But we're in this position because Elston had some bigtime misses between '17 and '21. I'm having trouble seeing how that's a hot take.

 

[Dale]

The top of the four-star range
- consists of prospects who project as high impact program players over a four year college career
- Tyson Ford
- Gabriel Rubio
- Jordan Botelho
- Rylie Mills
- Jacob Lacey

- prospects who might have a low floor but exceptionally high ceiling. This wold be a player with a high risk/high reward as a prospect.
- Aiden Gobaira


The latter part of the four-star range
- projected as eventual starters at the high major level or high impact star type players in the upper level of the mid major range.
- Howard Cross
- Hunter Spears
- Nana Osafa Mensah
- Isaiah Foskey

Three-star prospect
- solid mid major prospects and role players on the high major level
- Donovan Hinish
- Devin Aupui
- Will Schweitzer
- Jason Onye
- Aidan K
- Alex Ehrensberger

Any disagreement here? Obviously there is some bad evaluations by the services (Foskey - WOOF) but this is a better picture than just tossing out 3 or 4 star for us to work from.

IMO all that is needed to really change this picture to the better is some, half, a portion of that 3 star group needs to be the boom/bust group instead like Gobaira and that would have given us a lot more to work from and mold. Sometimes there just ain’t much to mold. The high reward area is screaming out there.

 

[Luckylucci]

1. Cross was listed by mistake. Meant Foskey, and original post has been changed.

2. Your points about KK, JO and JT are well taken. Which is why I said that Elston was a wonderful position coach, but a poor talent evaluator. He gets credit for their development; but he didn't bring them into the program, Gilmore did.

3. I'm not writing off the four guys you mentioned. But with the position left us in, those guys either a) HAVE TO hit, or b) we'll need to rely on underclassmen, the transfer portal, or a combination of both.

ND should be in a position where the 2015 and 2016 DL classes are the norm, not the exception. 2022 and 2023 is a positive step. But we're in this position because Elston had some bigtime misses between '17 and '21. I'm having trouble seeing how that's a hot take.

I hate to break up a perfectly good and 100% made up narrative but Keith Gilmore did not recruit Julian Okwara or Jerry Tillery.

Julian's primary recruiter was Elston because of his relationship with the family from recruiting his brother (also an NFL eval by Elston) Romeo.
- DE recruit Julian Okwara familiar with Notre Dame

Keith Gilmore was hired by Notre Dame in March of 2015. Tillery was literally enrolled and on campus before Gilmore was hired.
- OC Sanford among Notre Dame's new hires

Because you said he recruited like "dogshit" since 2016. That's how. But over time with more long drawn out and quite frankly inaccurate posting, we've come to the point where you clearly acknowledge that was likely a bad take. Hence changing to misses in the 2017 and 2021 classes. Much different from where we started. Glad we got here.

 

[CanadalovesND]

Driskell is saying on the IB boards that ND and Washington will be changing their strategy with Scott. Freeman is going to step in more, as well as Bowden.

 

[Katzenboyer]

I hate to break up a perfectly good and 100% made up narrative but Keith Gilmore did not recruit Julian Okwara or Jerry Tillery.

Julian's primary recruiter was Elston because of his relationship with the family from recruiting his brother (also an NFL eval by Elston) Romeo.
- DE recruit Julian Okwara familiar with Notre Dame

Keith Gilmore was hired by Notre Dame in March of 2015. Tillery was literally enrolled and on campus before Gilmore was hired.
- OC Sanford among Notre Dame's new hires

Because you said he recruited like "dogshit" since 2016. That's how. But over time with more long drawn out and quite frankly inaccurate posting, we've come to the point where you clearly acknowledge that was likely a bad take. Hence changing to misses in the 2017 and 2021 classes. Much different from where we started. Glad we got here.

Mea culpa on Gilmore and Tillery. My mistake on that one.

Gilmore was still the primary on Hayes, Kareem and Ade. Three difference makers in two years (I'm also finding articles about Gilmore's impact on Okwara, but I'm on record saying Elston deserves credit for his ability to develop talent. That's beyond question). And if you're going to split hairs on the primary/secondary recruiter re: Gilmore/Elston/Okwara, you need to do the same with Foskey, as Polian was his PR.

From 2017 to 2021 (i.e., since 2016), Elston recruited two difference makers (Jayson and Foskey), and not a single Top 100 DL during that time. To me, that's dogshit. And if it's not dogshit, I don't think you can argue that it's at least lackluster for a program that is looking to be in the CFP conversation every year - no?

FFS, this board loves to bury Del Alexander for his recruiting, but at least he brought in two Top 100 guys in his three years (Johnson and Styles). What's good for the goose should also be good for the candor.

 

[Katzenboyer]

I’ve already done this argument elsewhere, but it’s topical considering it’s in Justin Scott’s thread and the importance there. Just because Elston landed a 4 star recruit doesn’t mean he recruited at a College Football Playoff level and left that to Washington.

There are far too many undersized and/or developmental prospects. Howard Cross is the perfect example. Good recruit? Yes. Good player? Yes. Ceiling on that? 100000%. And Elston’s recruiting elsewhere (1 Tech) has now forced Cross to play out of his position, capping it even more. Again exactly why this is unfolding in Justin Scott’s thread. Nobody denies that Elston could recruit and develop a good DL. But I thought we were all rowing the boat in the same direction that this team under Freeman has even higher aspirations. And while a 4 star, some of Elston’s recruits simply cannot reach that level.

Any suggestion of well that’s a new guy problem if they can’t get more out of certain guys is incredibly and intentionally disingenuous for much of the roster

This is the point that Jamie at ISD continues to harp on. Players are playing out of position because Elston had some big misses, a lot of transfers, and ultimately failed to stack the classes the way ND stacked the DL in 2016-2017.

 

[Luckylucci]

Mea culpa on Gilmore and Tillery. My mistake on that one.

Gilmore was still the primary on Hayes, Kareem and Ade. Three difference makes in two years (I'm also finding articles about Gilmore's impact on Okwara, but I'm on record saying Elston deserves credit for his ability to develop talent. That's beyond question).

From 2017 to 2021 (i.e., since 2016), Elston recruited two difference makers (Jayson and Foskey), and not a single Top 100 DL during that time. To me, that's dogshit. And if it's not dogshit, I don't think you can argue that it's at least lackluster for a program that is looking to be in the CFP conversation every year - no?

FFS, this board loves to bury Del Alexander for his recruiting, but at least he brought in two Top 100 guys in his three years (Johnson and Styles). What's good for the goose should also be good for the candor.

Ade was a difference maker of a recruit? Do you just hope nobody calls you on the bullshit. He was an after thought of a prospect just like you are doing now with Onye, Ehrensberger, etc. He became one through development. The development of Elston. Just like Washington has the chance to do with several ex blue chip guys Elston left him.

So, if we're playing by the same rules for Washington he's also dogshit. I guess Freeman is as well. Because neither Freeman nor Washington have recruited a top 100 DL to Notre Dame yet.

I mean, just so we're clear, I don't agree with that but those are the rules so they're all dogshit recruiters.

 

[NDdomer2]

FFS, this board loves to bury Del Alexander for his recruiting, but at least he brought in two Top 100 guys in his three years (Johnson and Styles). What's good for the goose should also be good for the candor.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I recall Hayes kind of backed his way into ND.

 

[IRISHDODGER]

Free from ISD (Jamie U)

The 2016 recruiting class featured four defensive ends who would become NFL Draft picks. It also featured a converted linebacker who ended up playing end and then eventually making a 53-man roster in the NFL.

It’s arguably the greatest haul at that position that Notre Dame has ever had. (For anyone who knows of a better one, please throw it in the comments if you can recall one. I’d love to read about it.)

This is how Notre Dame followed that up.

Jonathan MaCollister (after hit after hit in the ‘16 class, a whiff by Keith Gilmore)

Kofi Wardlow (a late take by Mike Elston when he took over the D-line position)

Justin Ademilola (committed to Keith Gilmore and Notre Dame after being offered at a camp)

Isaiah Foskey (BIG hit)

NaNa Osafo-Mensah (hasn’t developed into a starter after four seasons)

Alex Ehrensberger (an intriguing project who hasn’t cracked the rotation)

Jordan Botelho (finally looks like a hit at the end of season three)

Will Schweitzer (moved positions and has been injured)

Devin Aupui (transferred after one semester)

Jason Onye (still in development, moved to defensive tackle)

Aiden Gobaira (redshirted)

That’s the list.

They have had linebackers move to Vyper during that time, but they weren’t specifically recruited by Mike Elston or projected to move there at the time they signed.

They signed three 4-stars in the ‘16 class. They only signed four (Foskey, NaNa, Botelho, and Gobaira) in the next six classes. Notre Dame kept winning games and the defensive ends kept producing, but the sign that things weren’t where they should be at defensive end was in 2021 when Myron Tagovailoa-Amosa had to move to end from defensive tackle then Rylie Mills had to do the same thing the next year.

That says that Notre Dame, in this case it would be Elston, missed with evaluations, landing elite recruits, and development at the position. And I don’t think Elston was/is a bad coach. I just think that talent (physical and athletic traits) are what matters the most on the defensive line and when you miss on talent, coaching can only do so much to make up for it.

The jury is out on Al Washington as a defensive line coach at Notre Dame because development with most of these guys isn’t a one-year deal.

Where is Tyson Ford at in year two and year three? Ditto with Gobaira? Can Washington help develop someone like Josh Burnham into a significant contributor as an edge rusher? That will be what matters the most in the long run as a coach, but in the meantime, Washington just landed four 4-stars in the 2022 class. He has another committed in the 2024 class and I have little doubt he’ll add to that number.

Notre Dame is going to be better in the long term because of this improved recruiting, but now they’re in the process of navigating what Elston did and didn’t do. A big part of that will be hoping that some of the guys Notre Dame just redshirted and the ones they signed in this class can help sooner rather than later.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Mea culpa on Gilmore and Tillery. My mistake on that one.

Gilmore was still the primary on Hayes, Kareem and Ade. Three difference makers in two years (I'm also finding articles about Gilmore's impact on Okwara, but I'm on record saying Elston deserves credit for his ability to develop talent. That's beyond question). And if you're going to split hairs on the primary/secondary recruiter re: Gilmore/Elston/Okwara, you need to do the same with Foskey, as Polian was his PR.

From 2017 to 2021 (i.e., since 2016), Elston recruited two difference makers (Jayson and Foskey), and not a single Top 100 DL during that time. To me, that's dogshit. And if it's not dogshit, I don't think you can argue that it's at least lackluster for a program that is looking to be in the CFP conversation every year - no?

FFS, this board loves to bury Del Alexander for his recruiting, but at least he brought in two Top 100 guys in his three years (Johnson and Styles). What's good for the goose should also be good for the candor.

To be fair, Hayes and Ade took a while to finally become difference makers.

Hayes played as a sophomore, but was pretty maddeningly inconsistent and raw until his final year when he stepped out of the shadow of Okwara. Even then, he had his great moments, but also had games where he was kind of invisible.

Sometimes it just takes a guy getting his shot for him to make that next step.

As for Elston's recruiting:

2017: Hard to really divvy it up, because this was the year Gilmore started out as DL coach and then he was let go and Elston took over near the end of the cycle. Elston was the primary recruiter for Kurt Hinish though, so there's that.

2018: Jayson (4-star), Justin (3-star), Franklin (3-star), Ovie (3-star)
2019: Lacey (4-star), Foskey (4-star), Spears (4-star), Cross (4-star), NaNa (4-star)
2020: Botelho (4-star), Mills (4-star), Keanaaina (3-star), Ehrensberger (3-star)
2021: Rubio (4-star), Aiupau (3-star), Schweitzer (3-star), Onye (3-star), Kia (3-star)

I think a good term would be woefully inconsistent.

I think the 2019 and 2020 classes were solid. Big on numbers and complimentary. The only potential gripe I had is with 2019 lacking size at tackle.

But 2018 and 2021 were bad classes with way too many projects. You should not be taking 5 DL when only 1 of them is an established product.

 

[CanadalovesND]

Can we not just say that they are both 7/10 and move on?

 

[Luckylucci]

In 2018, Elston developed 4, Sophomore DL, into 16 sacks and 31.5 TFL's. (Those guys were ranked 133, 196, 301, and 652)

In 2023, Washington will have 3 Sophomores and 1 Junior (They were ranked 109, 117, 120, and 168). You could also throw in another Sophomore, JR (at #159), and make it 5.

In 2018, Notre Dame's DL, largely led by the Sophomore class played at a College Football Playoff level. Time for Washington to be that dude, which Elston was.

 

[Sea Turtle]

This is always going to be a big problem why NDcwill never catch the big boys. Those teams will do what it takes NIL wise to get those 3 difference makers every year.
That's about 10 players on a team every other year. You can't overcome that.

 

[ThePiombino]

So everyone reveres Jamie U until he states the obvious about Elston? The D-line is a weak spot heading into next season because of him. Why does everyone feel the need to defend him? This is the most telling fact:

"They signed three 4-stars in the ‘16 class. They only signed four (Foskey, NaNa, Botelho, and Gobaira) in the next six classes."

That's absurd and indefensible.

 

[Dale]

Lost or hiding in plain sight in all this Elston talk, I’m not seeing how not landing Scott is a firable offense for Al Washington.

There is little precedence of landing 5 star DTs from his predecessor.

 

[Irish4life]

Lost or hiding in plain sight in all this Elston talk, I’m not seeing how not landing Scott is a firable offense for Al Washington.

There is little precedence of landing 5 star DTs from his predecessor.

Because it's not a fire-able offense. Like how Stuckey not landing Carnell Tate wasn't a fire-able offense.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Ade was a difference maker of a recruit? Do you just hope nobody calls you on the bullshit. He was an after thought of a prospect just like you are doing now with Onye, Ehrensberger, etc. He became one through development. The development of Elston. Just like Washington has the chance to do with several ex blue chip guys Elston left him.

So, if we're playing by the same rules for Washington he's also dogshit. I guess Freeman is as well. Because neither Freeman nor Washington have recruited a top 100 DL to Notre Dame yet.

I mean, just so we're clear, I don't agree with that but those are the rules so they're all dogshit recruiters.

First off, and maybe I'm missing something, but why the vitriol? I'm disagreeing with you. You're making points, I'm making points, and I don't think I've insulted you once when discussing those points, and unless you're Elston's nephew or cousin, I'm not sure why you're getting so bothered by that disagreement.

Second, I've never once said that Al Washington is somehow better than Elston. If he recruits in the same fashion over a five-year period and fails to develop players at the same level that Elston did while he was here -- which, if you go back, you can see I've never said otherwise -- then yes, I will be saying the same thing. (Also - I'm not sure what you mean about Washington. He was the Primary for Vernon, who was #60 on Rivals. Yes, he committed before he was hired, but if you're going to credit Elston for "getting" KK - which you seemingly did a few posts back - than Washington needs to be credited for keeping Vernon in the fold).

There seems to have come out of no where this narrative that Washington stinks, and needs to be fired. I'm not quite sure where that's coming from, and I think he did pretty well with the deck he was handed (which was somewhat thin because of a lack of difference makers/depth in the last few classes).

Again, what's your exact issue here? You and I disagree about Elston. Fine. No need to get piss and vinegar about it.

 

[Katzenboyer]

So everyone reveres Jamie U until he states the obvious about Elston? The D-line is a weak spot heading into next season because of him. Why does everyone feel the need to defend him? This is the most telling fact:

"They signed three 4-stars in the ‘16 class. They only signed four (Foskey, NaNa, Botelho, and Gobaira) in the next six classes."

That's absurd and indefensible.

Pretty much says everything.

 

[Luckylucci]

So everyone reveres Jamie U until he states the obvious about Elston? The D-line is a weak spot heading into next season because of him. Why does everyone feel the need to defend him? This is the most telling fact:

"They signed three 4-stars in the ‘16 class. They only signed four (Foskey, NaNa, Botelho, and Gobaira) in the next six classes."

That's absurd and indefensible.

Because that's not how it played out in real time. I love Jamie U but that article is the definition of disingenuous. It's Monday Morning QB'ing, literal, years of roster decisions. To which Elston does not presently have the ability to respond too with his version of the depth chart.

Guys were moved, over that time, in and out of those position groups. Ovie is a good example of that. He didn't recruit Ovie to Vyper. But they moved him there. At one point, that factored into his depth chart for numbers he could recruit too. At one point, very recently, Elston's Vyper depth chart was so flush with experience and talent, that Ovie went to Texas. How about Osita Ekwonu? At one point, whoever made those decisions, put 2 or 3 Vypers on his depth chart over 2 cycles. Only one of them did he recruit to the position.

They recruited Ford to be a DE. Tyson Ford would play a stand up DE (ROLB) position in HS. They recruited Mills as a swing DE/DT. His recruiting profile was a SDE. This all matters a great deal when evaluating those decisions, at those times.

First off, and maybe I'm missing something, but why the vitriol? I'm disagreeing with you. You're making points, I'm making points, and I don't think I've insulted you once when discussing those points, and unless you're Elston's nephew or cousin, I'm not sure why you're getting so bothered by that disagreement.

Second, I've never once said that Al Washington is somehow better than Elston. If he recruits in the same fashion over a five-year period and fails to develop players at the same level that Elston did while he was here -- which, if you go back, you can see I've never said otherwise -- then yes, I will be saying the same thing. (Also - I'm not sure what you mean about Washington. He was the Primary for Vernon, who was #60 on Rivals. Yes, he committed before he was hired, but if you're going to credit Elston for "getting" KK - which you seemingly did a few posts back - than Washington needs to be credited for keeping Vernon in the fold).

There seems to have come out of no where this narrative that Washington stinks, and needs to be fired. I'm not quite sure where that's coming from, and I think he did pretty well with the deck he was handed (which was somewhat thin because of a lack of difference makers/depth in the last few classes).

Again, what's your exact issue here? You and I disagree about Elston. Fine. No need to get piss and vinegar about it.

Of all BK assistants, Mike Elston is on one of a small group that truly deserve our appreciation for what they meant to this program. And here you are calling his recruiting dog shit but can’t be bothered to get the facts right. Yea, that’s frustrating.

 

[Katzenboyer]

Of all BK assistants, Mike Elston is on one of a small group that truly deserve our appreciation for what they meant to this program. And here you are calling his recruiting dog shit but can’t be bothered to get the facts right. Yea, that’s frustrating.

Your defense of Elston has been noted. Abundantly. And as I've repeated consistently in this thread, Elston deserves the credit for developing his guys. You'll hear no argument otherwise from me.

I view him similar to how I view BK, however. Terrific coach, and should be lauded for what he did for the ND program. But his 2018, 2019 and 2020 classes - this year's upperclassmen - were ranked #11, #14 and #22 respectively. Which, as a trend, is really subpar (dare I say, "dogshit"?) for where ND needs to be.

Does that make him a bad coach? Absolutely not. But it's a valid criticism. And the same applies to Elston in my view, for his evaluation and recruiting chops in the last few classes.

 

[BobbyMac]

I stumbled upon this thread because our very own @BobbyMac was in the mud and rational, but this thread really plays all the hits of IB subscribers AND a Grubl sighting.

Should've invited him to IE for a lengthy discussion.

While I agree ND must do better, the Cut Washington Crew needs to chill for a minute. When you have a beef with Dell or Tommy over past results and where the WR/QB rooms were in '22... ya gotta right. Getting on Washington for not currently having a kid from GA's commitment cuz he now lives in Chicagoland and attends an elite academic private school is silly. There's a lot of kids in CHI who don't give af about ND, not saying Scott's a hate but personal preference, NIL & NFL development by current staff might have ND sitting solid in the 8 hole.

Plus, he does know St Ignatius is a Jesuit school... right?

 

[BobbyMac]

Oh... and shame on those who forgot who recruited who since 2015.

The Gilmore omission until late in the convo and the misapplication of credit on Okwara were easily avoided by the handy dandy Irish Envy timeline profiles. One more thing to remember not mentioned unless I missed it... credit to Elston for Botelho, Foskey, Schweitzer probably even Aupiu lie more on Polian than Elston and Lea was instrumental in getting Foskey's attention away from TE and onto DE where it belonged. Yes it was Elston's room but it was Polian's leg work.

 

[Luckylucci]

I believe there has been a grand total of one person calling for Washington to be fired and he's momentarily not posting with us. Seems like a very insignificant cohort.