Politics

[Cackalacky2.0]

Can you educate me as to where I can find stats on how many people crossed here and where they are now? How about how many government benefits they've collected since? How many have committed a crime? Where do I find the stats on the videos of these people piling over the border and encountered by nobody or those from eyewitness accounts who live in the border area? Where are these stats maintained? If the stats don't exist, did this crossing even happen?

You should ask that guy He seems reputable and knowledgeable enough to claim that is one of the most massive crossings ever seen!!!!! 😂

Just this once I’ll help you make your argument. Here is a good place to start.

Immigration channels in the US, both authorized and unauthorized: a data-driven guide | USAFacts

Immigrants influence many facets of life in the nation, from demographics to the economy. Discover comprehensive data on how immigrants shape the country, the challenges they face, and the impacts of global crises on immigration trends.

usafacts.org

 

[drayer54]

You’re asking me to assume that a fact check site founded by a billionaire mega-donor to the Democratic Party would include the answers to my questions above about untracked border crossings? If nobody encounters them, how do we know how many have crossed?

 

[TorontoGold]

View attachment 3051526

What other country is providing the additional ~8M to make it tens of millions?

Also what political benefits are the Democrats getting from illegal immigration? New Mexico turning blue in the 90's after 8 years of Reagan prior? Arizona going blue in two elections since 1952? Texas/Cali any difference there?

Legal immigration, shouldn't these taxpayers be allowed to vote? Presuming that they follow whatever voter ID policies?

This was my initial response. No emotion no attempt to try make it into some mudslinging shit show that it now has become.

I take responsibility for my part in the fallout after, but to make it like I'm the one moving goalposts and flailing around is just false.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

You’re asking me to assume that a fact check site founded by a billionaire mega-donor to the Democratic Party would include the answers to my questions above about untracked border crossings? If nobody encounters them, how do we know how many have crossed?

If you don’t know where to find this information then I fail to see how you feel so strongly about it without having any evidence of your own with which to argue with.

 

[SeekNDestroy]

No matter how much you try to obscure the issue by conflating legal immigration with illegal immigration, it won't work. There's a vast difference between our ancestors who came here legally and the thousands who flaunt our laws and pour across the border with encouragement from one party and their promise of free stuff.

You don’t wanna start a discussion about your ancestors…

 

[ab2cmiller]

Todays Nativists are so funny and ironic. It’s funny because their recentrelatives were once immigrants too.

That's an emotional appeal. I've been told that's not allowed on this thread.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

That's an emotional appeal. I've been told that's not allowed on this thread.

It’s a fact that peoples recent relatives are ALL immigrants.

 

[ab2cmiller]

It’s a fact that peoples recent relatives are ALL immigrants.

Thankfully you seem to be admitting that things can be factual and emotional appeals. Good news!

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Thankfully you seem to be admitting that things can be factual and emotional appeals. Good news!

Intentionally misrepresenting my point is also a fallacy. Im not expressing an appeal to emotion. Just a fact all of our families are immigrants. The irony of Nativists being against immigration to this country is funny to me that’s a personal observation😂 that fact is funny to me. Probably not so to Nativists who are against immigration and don’t see the irony

 

[Irish#1]

There's a $378B gap between the two. To say they are equal is saying that the qualitative differences between the two policies are worth $378B. That is essentially 72% of the budgeted HHS Medicaid costs for 2021 https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/fy-2022-budget-in-brief.pdf

In total that's 22.23% of the total 2022 HHS budget. You're allowed to say they're both equal but at the extreme difference in cost, how do you justify it?

If the student from 10/15 years ago has student loans they should be able to get that support, no? If point is "they paid their loans off why can't todays grads do it" would be to 1) Ignore how inflation/cost rate of change has outpaced wage growth exponentially 2) Assume that because something wasn't available to someone in the past that it shouldn't be offered to someone in present.

Mortgages in the 80s had crazy rates, should we expect everyone to pay those rates today. Or, based on the economic environment along with government policy we are ok with more favorable positions for today's society. Lastly, are we that selfish that because something bad happened to us, that someone getting something that will help them is somehow a negative thing for everyone?

We're not comparing rates from 15 years ago to today to decide if it's right or not. It's all relative to that period of time. Student loans back then or even further back had a significant impact on the pocket book. I'm not for it, but if you're going to forgive student loans do it for all students past and present and for all student loans regardless of how old they are. Let's be fair to everyone. Even doctors who are the worst at paying their student loans.

To the point about PPP vs. Student loans, you want to compare the dollars and not the act. Both of these acts will have an impact on our economy. One may be larger, but it's still the same type of act. Let's print some money, make people feel good and win some votes.

This isn't about being selfish and it's not about mortgage rates in the 80's. I could argue that you're being selfish for not seeing the impact the PPP and student loans forgiveness will have on everyone later on. Some of us prefer to make things easier for everyone long term by putting the right policies in place and not a temporary feel good measure. I could argue that those in favor of these two acts are being selfish for some immediate gratification.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Intentionally misrepresenting my point is also a fallacy. Im not expressing an appeal to emotion. Just a fact all of our families are immigrants. The irony of Nativists being against immigration to this country is funny to me that’s a personal observation😂 that fact is funny to me. Probably not so to Nativists who are against immigration and don’t see the irony

So is intentionally misrepresenting what all the rest of us are complaining about. Literally NONE of us are against immigration. None of us have argued against immigration nor immigrants who came here legally. We're against ILLEGAL immigration. Why do you insist on being dishonest in your discussion of this and knowingly, intentionally, and willfully trying to obfuscate the truth by conflating legal and illegal immigration and falsely accusing those who are against the illegal flooding of our borders with being against immigration in general. It's as dishonest and ridiculous as saying those who oppose rape are against sex. This sort of intentional dishonesty and nonsense is why you get roasted so much and made fun of for posting idiotic, dishonest drivel. Remember a few months ago when I lit you up for being the king of strawman arguing? Here's a perfect example of why.

 

[Irish#1]

We can point the finger at 18 year olds and mock them for making poor financial decisions but we'll probably fix the problem by asking why a lender would ever allow them to borrow an unpayable amount of debt.

And it's not a YOU problem when the volume of loans is what it is today. A mass default could negatively impact our entire economy.

What does it say about our country that we even allow usurers to strap our youth with this level of debt? It's insanity.

You do realize that a great majority of these loans were made by and/or guaranteed by the government? At what point do we start letting them make their own decisions? Where were the parents when they started down this path? Parents typically help their kids buy their first car which can be a pretty significant chunk of change. Student loan forgiveness will have an impact on the economy as well.

 

[Irish#1]

Immigrants in the U.S. contributed more than $330.7 billion in federal income taxes in 2019, and over $492 billion dollars in total taxes (including state, municipal, and sales taxes). The Tax Foundation estimates that American and immigrant taxpayers paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes in 2019. In this context, it’s important to note that immigrants made up only 13.5% of the U.S. population in 2020, meaning that immigrants make an outsized contribution to the U.S. revenue system.

One of the biggest misconceptions around immigration relates to payment of federal income and other taxes. Namely, that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes, or otherwise abuse government safety nets such as Medicaid and Social Security. However, the evidence actually shows that between half and three quarters of undocumented immigrant households file income tax returns using Individual Tax Identification Numbers (ITINs), and many who do not returns still pay taxes through paycheck deductions

Immigrants and the Economy: Income, Spending Power, and Taxes

Undocumented immigrants = illegal immigrants, correct?

 

[Bishop2b5]

You don’t wanna start a discussion about your ancestors…

Sure I do. Why not? Are you willing to have an intelligent discussion about my ancestors? If so, have at it. I'll be glad to discuss the subject with you. Be forewarned though, if you insist on saying stupid, misinformed, ignorant stuff, I'll make a fool of you and make you wish you hadn't feebly attempted to insult me. Your choice. You've gone down this path once or twice before trying to insult my ancestry with some incredibly ignorant, poorly thought out nonsense and you got lit TF up and looked ignorant and foolish for it. If you didn't learn anything from that, then by all means, have another go at it.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Undocumented immigrants = illegal immigrants, correct?

From a tax and benefit perspective... not really a meaningful distinction. As the article clearly states undocumented immigrants still pay local, state and federal taxes just by being in the country. Many to most file taxes and have payroll deductions taken out. They contribute more than they take out.

 

[Irish#1]

I have zero problems with proper authorities helping properly informed immigrants being allowed to go wherever they want once they are here but shouldn’t be used as political props as part of a political stunt. There are proper ways to facilitate an orderly and humane transition. What DeSantis did using millions of taxpayer dollars was just wrong.

The people who aided DeDantis gave the immigrants fake addresses as far away as Washington State on theirs papers (knowing they were shipping them to Mass.). They would have been required to check in at those offices within a period of time or face deportation. Then they shipped them to Massachusetts the point being to further harm these people by merely fucking with them via paperwork. It was cruel and just a garbage thing to do. If you agree with playing with peoples lives like that including infants then that says a lot about you.

You're absolutely correct. I wonder why the "undocumented immigrants" don't follow that protocol?

Could DeSantis have done this better? Of course he could have. Let's be honest though. If he would have informed those in NY, DC and Massachusetts that he was sending these people they would have told him not to send them. There's a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to caring about those coming into the country illegally.

 

[Irish#1]

From a tax and benefit perspective... not really a meaningful distinction. As the article clearly states undocumented immigrants still pay local, state and federal taxes just by being in the country. Many to most file taxes and have payroll deductions taken out. They contribute more than they take out.

lol.....Simple question. Disregarding paying taxes, collecting benefits, etc., is an undocumented immigrant the same as an illegal immigrant or as the law defines it, an illegal alien? Yes or no?

 

[Irish#1]

Sure I do. Why not? Are you willing to have an intelligent discussion about my ancestors? If so, have at it. I'll be glad to discuss the subject with you. Be forewarned though, if you insist on saying stupid, misinformed, ignorant stuff, I'll make a fool of you and make you wish you hadn't feebly attempted to insult me. Your choice. You've gone down this path once or twice before trying to insult my ancestry with some incredibly ignorant, poorly thought out nonsense and you got lit TF up and looked ignorant and foolish for it. If you didn't learn anything from that, then by all means, have another go at it.

I think we might have another bout on the undercard at the Y! lol

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

lol.....Simple question. Disregarding paying taxes, collecting benefits, etc., is an undocumented immigrant the same as an illegal immigrant or as the law defines it, an illegal alien? Yes or no?

Simple answer is it doenst matter. They contribute to our tax base and provide low cost cheap labor that we need. What you are TRYING to do is paint these people as criminals simply by crossing the border under hope of assylum. In any case it doesnt matter as when they are here they become a part of the economy and tax base until such time they are deported or stay permanently and have kids who are then legal citizens of the country.

There are many documented immigrants that overstay their visas. This is also ILLEGAL but nativists don’t care about that. They too consequently contribute to our taxes on all levels.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

You're absolutely correct. I wonder why the "undocumented immigrants" don't follow that protocol?

Could DeSantis have done this better? Of course he could have. Let's be honest though. If he would have informed those in NY, DC and Massachusetts that he was sending these people they would have told him not to send them. There's a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to caring about those coming into the country illegally.

HE ISNT THE ONE WHO SHOULD SEND THEM! LOL. There are proper ways to do this. Its not hard.

 

[drayer54]

You're absolutely correct. I wonder why the "undocumented immigrants" don't follow that protocol?

Could DeSantis have done this better? Of course he could have. Let's be honest though. If he would have informed those in NY, DC and Massachusetts that he was sending these people they would have told him not to send them. There's a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to caring about those coming into the country illegally.

A majority of the Governors in this country requested a meeting with the President to discuss border security and the problems they were seeing at the border. Biden didn’t have time. Except, he did have time. 243 days of vacation so far.

The governors tried to work with the White House. The White House looked the other way at the problem. Governors took action to make the problem harder for him to ignore. DeSantis and Abbott have media networks that navigate for Democrats talking about immigration. They have liberals on here trying to defend the border problem. They’ve successfully made the problem harder to ignore for ‘ Democrats who for some reason not represented by charts sufficient for people here, but assume it’s because they care’ on this page.

It’s working. Keep filling busses until Biden and our idiot border czar address the problem.

 

[TorontoGold]

We're not comparing rates from 15 years ago to today to decide if it's right or not. It's all relative to that period of time. Student loans back then or even further back had a significant impact on the pocket book. I'm not for it, but if you're going to forgive student loans do it for all students past and present and for all student loans regardless of how old they are. Let's be fair to everyone. Even doctors who are the worst at paying their student loans.

To the point about PPP vs. Student loans, you want to compare the dollars and not the act. Both of these acts will have an impact on our economy. One may be larger, but it's still the same type of act. Let's print some money, make people feel good and win some votes.

This isn't about being selfish and it's not about mortgage rates in the 80's. I could argue that you're being selfish for not seeing the impact the PPP and student loans forgiveness will have on everyone later on. Some of us prefer to make things easier for everyone long term by putting the right policies in place and not a temporary feel good measure. I could argue that those in favor of these two acts are being selfish for some immediate gratification.

Sure we are, your position is that if some are getting relief it is unfair to those from prior periods - which is why I'm saying it's a different economic environment. Of course they had a significant impact back then, it's never been cheap.

The reason why I brought up the cost, was because initially you challenged why I felt that student loan forgiveness is "better" than PPP. Which is because I believe that helping out individuals is much better for the economy than helping out businesses. I brought up the cost later because if we leave the out the individual vs business side, it's cheaper to help out with student loans than businesses. Student loan forgiveness has a tremendous impact on the economy, as WB mentioned prior having an aging part of the population carrying large amounts of debt as they get older is not healthy for the economy. When people carry this kind of debt it negatively impacts all parts of the economy, think about real estate - if there isn't someone coming up that will buy your house when you want to sell, you'll have to sell at a lower amount than you expected.

If you think I haven't seen the impact of government transfers to businesses or individuals, feel free to point out what I've missed or overlooked. I'd be curious to see what economic impacts I haven't considered that you would like to mention.

It is a temporary feel good measure because sweeping change to the pricing of post-secondary costs will never happen, one side doesn't want to anything more than duct tape fixes and the other doesn't want to appearance of "big government". However, there are tremendous benefits with relieving student debt.

 

[Irish#1]

Simple answer is it doenst matter. They contribute to our tax base and provide low cost cheap labor that we need. What you are TRYING to do is paint these people as criminals simply by crossing the border under hope of assylum. In any case it doesnt matter as when they are here they become a part of the economy and tax base until such time they are deported or stay permanently and have kids who are then legal citizens of the country.

There are many documented immigrants that overstay their visas. This is also ILLEGAL but nativists don’t care about that. They too consequently contribute to our taxes on all levels.

LOL

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

LOL

LMAO

 

[Irish#1]

Sure we are, your position is that if some are getting relief it is unfair to those from prior periods - which is why I'm saying it's a different economic environment. Of course they had a significant impact back then, it's never been cheap.

The reason why I brought up the cost, was because initially you challenged why I felt that student loan forgiveness is "better" than PPP. Which is because I believe that helping out individuals is much better for the economy than helping out businesses. I brought up the cost later because if we leave the out the individual vs business side, it's cheaper to help out with student loans than businesses. Student loan forgiveness has a tremendous impact on the economy, as WB mentioned prior having an aging part of the population carrying large amounts of debt as they get older is not healthy for the economy. When people carry this kind of debt it negatively impacts all parts of the economy, think about real estate - if there isn't someone coming up that will buy your house when you want to sell, you'll have to sell at a lower amount than you expected.

If you think I haven't seen the impact of government transfers to businesses or individuals, feel free to point out what I've missed or overlooked. I'd be curious to see what economic impacts I haven't considered that you would like to mention.

It is a temporary feel good measure because sweeping change to the pricing of post-secondary costs will never happen, one side doesn't want to anything more than duct tape fixes and the other doesn't want to appearance of "big government". However, there are tremendous benefits with relieving student debt.

First, I never challenged you. I simply asked why you felt one was more important than the other. And no we're not. Your the one that brought up the difference. I'm discussing on a very macro level why neither the COVID money nor the student loan forgiveness is a good idea. But like AB2cmiller pointed out, it's like chasing the wind. You can't discuss a topic without bringing extra baggage with you.

 

[Irish#1]

.

 

[Irish#1]

Simple answer is it doenst matter. They contribute to our tax base and provide low cost cheap labor that we need. What you are TRYING to do is paint these people as criminals simply by crossing the border under hope of assylum. In any case it doesnt matter as when they are here they become a part of the economy and tax base until such time they are deported or stay permanently and have kids who are then legal citizens of the country.

There are many documented immigrants that overstay their visas. This is also ILLEGAL but nativists don’t care about that. They too consequently contribute to our taxes on all levels.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

I absolutely understand your point in asking a question that has little meaning and still provided an answer. lol

 

[TorontoGold]

First, I never challenged you. I simply asked why you felt one was more important than the other. And no we're not. Your the one that brought up the difference. I'm discussing on a very macro level why neither the COVID money nor the student loan forgiveness is a good idea. But like AB2cmiller pointed out, it's like chasing the wind. You can't discuss a topic without bringing extra baggage with you.

And I provided both the "emotional" answer being that I like helping businesses, and the "economic" answer in that it is much less costly and more impactful to provide direct impacts on the economy.

Ok on the macro level then, this is actually the line of economics I majored in so I'm glad you want to discuss this vs the micro economic impact. Having the debt burden with the government vs. the general populous is much better as the government obviously will have better lenders than an individual. Allowing your population to have more free cash flow is

Which extra baggage did I bring? I don't recall in my post where I made it personal or anything to that effect. Please point it out.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]