Politics

[drayer54]

If you’re a Democrat abusing power, we’re still in a pandemic. If you’re a democrat on the campaign trail, COVID is over. I can’t wait for McCarthy to bring these aholes back to work.

 

[TorontoGold]

Your reliance on the 11m number is laughable. Reality is we have no idea what that number is and it's probably way more than that. And we've seen a record number of border crossings this year. No hyperbole here bud.

The Dems goal is to flip Texas (and the country) blue. Texas is still a red state but those margins are growing smaller every election year.

It's tough to argue my points because they're based in reality. The responsibility of the federal government, regardless of the party in power, is to secure our border and enforce our laws. That isn't happening.

10's of millions buddy, that's what you said. You stoked up the fears by saying that.

Again, and again you fail to use any statistics to support your position. Emotional and filled with white fright grievances. Sad. It's crazy because if you cared to look at the stats - Behind Biden’s 2020 Victory Latino voters are moving towards the GOP. Instead of tailoring policy to capitalize on those gains, nope we see here a bunch of emotional grievances about how awful it is they're voting. Also goes to show you how braindead the Dems are, GOP - "TOO many immigrants, they're taking control" Dems "Uhhhh well uhhh vote for us!".

You missed answering whether - is it wrong that tax paying registered voting US citizens are voting? Because they or their parents were immigrants?

 

[drayer54]

10's of millions buddy, that's what you said. You stoked up the fears by saying that.

Again, and again you fail to use any statistics to support your position. Emotional and filled with white fright grievances. Sad. It's crazy because if you cared to look at the stats - Behind Biden’s 2020 Victory Latino voters are moving towards the GOP. Instead of tailoring policy to capitalize on those gains, nope we see here a bunch of emotional grievances about how awful it is they're voting. Also goes to show you how braindead the Dems are, GOP - "TOO many immigrants, they're taking control" Dems "Uhhhh well uhhh vote for us!".

You missed answering whether - is it wrong that tax paying registered voting US citizens are voting? Because they or their parents were immigrants?

Is the pandemic over?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

10's of millions buddy, that's what you said. You stoked up the fears by saying that.

Again, and again you fail to use any statistics to support your position. Emotional and filled with white fright grievances. Sad. It's crazy because if you cared to look at the stats - Behind Biden’s 2020 Victory Latino voters are moving towards the GOP. Instead of tailoring policy to capitalize on those gains, nope we see here a bunch of emotional grievances about how awful it is they're voting. Also goes to show you how braindead the Dems are, GOP - "TOO many immigrants, they're taking control" Dems "Uhhhh well uhhh vote for us!".

You missed answering whether - is it wrong that tax paying registered voting US citizens are voting? Because they or their parents were immigrants?

If you had millions of illegal immigrants in your country, perhaps you'd have the same level of frustration that Americans do on this topic.

I don't need statistics or graphs to support every argument I make. You're dancing around because the points I put forth are not opinions, they're facts. Whether we look at the numbers of illegals here, the record breaking border crossings in 2022, or anything else I posted days ago...you still can't dispute any of them. So you side step and bring up something else.

There is nothing wrong with tax paying registered voters casting their ballot. The bullshit is one party offering free shit to illegal immigrants.

I'll ask this question again: if the US needed to export 500,000 of its citizens to another country, these people needed housing, food, clothing, healthcare, and education, which country would be welcoming them with open arms?

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Immigrants in the U.S. contributed more than $330.7 billion in federal income taxes in 2019, and over $492 billion dollars in total taxes (including state, municipal, and sales taxes). The Tax Foundation estimates that American and immigrant taxpayers paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes in 2019. In this context, it’s important to note that immigrants made up only 13.5% of the U.S. population in 2020, meaning that immigrants make an outsized contribution to the U.S. revenue system.

One of the biggest misconceptions around immigration relates to payment of federal income and other taxes. Namely, that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes, or otherwise abuse government safety nets such as Medicaid and Social Security. However, the evidence actually shows that between half and three quarters of undocumented immigrant households file income tax returns using Individual Tax Identification Numbers (ITINs), and many who do not returns still pay taxes through paycheck deductions

Immigrants and the Economy: Income, Spending Power, and Taxes

 

[drayer54]

Immigrants in the U.S. contributed more than $330.7 billion in federal income taxes in 2019, and over $492 billion dollars in total taxes (including state, municipal, and sales taxes). The Tax Foundation estimates that American and immigrant taxpayers paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes in 2019. In this context, it’s important to note that immigrants made up only 13.5% of the U.S. population in 2020, meaning that immigrants make an outsized contribution to the U.S. revenue system.

One of the biggest misconceptions around immigration relates to payment of federal income and other taxes. Namely, that undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes, or otherwise abuse government safety nets such as Medicaid and Social Security. However, the evidence actually shows that between half and three quarters of undocumented immigrant households file income tax returns using Individual Tax Identification Numbers (ITINs), and many who do not returns still pay taxes through paycheck deductions

Immigrants and the Economy: Income, Spending Power, and Taxes

So they should be welcome everywhere, right? Including Martha’s Vineyard, DC, and NYC. Good thing we have people facilitating that.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

So they should be welcome everywhere, right? Including Martha’s Vineyard, DC, and NYC. Good thing we have people facilitating that.

I have zero problems with proper authorities helping properly informed immigrants being allowed to go wherever they want once they are here but shouldn’t be used as political props as part of a political stunt. There are proper ways to facilitate an orderly and humane transition. What DeSantis did using millions of taxpayer dollars was just wrong.

The people who aided DeDantis gave the immigrants fake addresses as far away as Washington State on theirs papers (knowing they were shipping them to Mass.). They would have been required to check in at those offices within a period of time or face deportation. Then they shipped them to Massachusetts the point being to further harm these people by merely fucking with them via paperwork. It was cruel and just a garbage thing to do. If you agree with playing with peoples lives like that including infants then that says a lot about you.

 

[TorontoGold]

If you had millions of illegal immigrants in your country, perhaps you'd have the same level of frustration that Americans do on this topic.

I don't need statistics or graphs to support every argument I make. You're dancing around because the points I put forth are not opinions, they're facts. Whether we look at the numbers of illegals here, the record breaking border crossings in 2022, or anything else I posted days ago...you still can't dispute any of them. So you side step and bring up something else.

There is nothing wrong with tax paying registered voters casting their ballot. The bullshit is one party offering free shit to illegal immigrants.

I'll ask this question again: if the US needed to export 500,000 of its citizens to another country, these people needed housing, food, clothing, healthcare, and education, which country would be welcoming them with open arms?

There it is, chefs kiss. Reminds of ol'Bishop pounding his chest about how conservatives all pick positions based on facts not feelings, yet here we are.

Dancing? My guy, I've been asking you about your original points 1) There are 10's of millions of illegal immigrants (which implies there are 20/30 million illegal immigrants in the US) 2) That immigrants both illegal and legal are turning states blue and this is for political reasons, and that this is somehow bad. You are the poster who supplied that list of 7 emotional points that were different than the original two points you made.

We've seen that your original points are just straight up incorrect and that you can't support the position that immigrants coming to the US is bad. Somehow immigrants voting is bad.

If I was a politician I would absolutely welcome 500K Americans. A labour injection would be incredible for our economy.

 

[drayer54]

If you had millions of illegal immigrants in your country, perhaps you'd have the same level of frustration that Americans do on this topic.

I don't need statistics or graphs to support every argument I make. You're dancing around because the points I put forth are not opinions, they're facts. Whether we look at the numbers of illegals here, the record breaking border crossings in 2022, or anything else I posted days ago...you still can't dispute any of them. So you side step and bring up something else.

There is nothing wrong with tax paying registered voters casting their ballot. The bullshit is one party offering free shit to illegal immigrants.

I'll ask this question again: if the US needed to export 500,000 of its citizens to another country, these people needed housing, food, clothing, healthcare, and education, which country would be welcoming them with open arms?

If you don’t have a specific chart from a recognized source, everything you’re saying is clearly false.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

If you don’t have a specific chart from a recognized source, everything you’re saying is clearly false.

An unfounded assertion is simply that. It’s the basis of argumentation.

 

[drayer54]

If I was a politician, I would absolutely welcome 500K people who are statistically likely to vote for my party in border states, but nowhere actually near my home. More people to absorb never ending benefits would be amazing for our economy that I am told is definitely in the best economic recovery ever and not in a recession .

FIFY

 

[TorontoGold]

FIFY

Re-read what he asked. Not everything is some grand conspiracy to make you the perpetual victim. Trust me they aren't going to the outskirts of Ohio or Indiana wrecking havoc on the KMart.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

There it is, chefs kiss. Reminds of ol'Bishop pounding his chest about how conservatives all pick positions based on facts not feelings, yet here we are.

Dancing? My guy, I've been asking you about your original points 1) There are 10's of millions of illegal immigrants (which implies there are 20/30 million illegal immigrants in the US) 2) That immigrants both illegal and legal are turning states blue and this is for political reasons, and that this is somehow bad. You are the poster who supplied that list of 7 emotional points that were different than the original two points you made.

We've seen that your original points are just straight up incorrect and that you can't support the position that immigrants coming to the US is bad. Somehow immigrants voting is bad.

If I was a politician I would absolutely welcome 500K Americans. A labour injection would be incredible for our economy.

lol you keep saying my points are incorrect but haven't been able to point to where or how I'm wrong. Do you want to dispute how many illegal immigrants are here living on the taxpayer dime? It's at least ten million, possibly more than twenty million. Do you disagree that Dems are bribing illegals with "free" services? We've seen a record number of border crossings this year. Do you disagree? Cartels are pushing drugs and trafficking people across our border. Do you disagree? Texas is still a red state but the margins aren't as wide as they once were. Do you disagree?

None of the above is emotional. You can dismiss it brush it off or whatever, but it's factual.

 

[drayer54]

lol you keep saying my points are incorrect but haven't been able to point to where or how I'm wrong. Do you want to dispute how many illegal immigrants are here living on the taxpayer dime? It's at least ten million, possibly more than twenty million. Do you disagree that Dems are bribing illegals with "free" services? We've seen a record number of border crossings this year. Do you disagree? Cartels are pushing drugs and trafficking people across our border. Do you disagree? Texas is still a red state but the margins aren't as wide as they once were. Do you disagree?

None of the above is emotional. You can dismiss it brush it off or whatever, but it's factual.

100% He has no charts to the contrary

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Re-read what he asked. Not everything is some grand conspiracy to make you the perpetual victim. Trust me they aren't going to the outskirts of Ohio or Indiana wrecking havoc on the KMart.

Todays Nativists are so funny and ironic. It’s funny because their recentrelatives were once immigrants too.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Todays Nativists are so funny and ironic. It’s funny because their recentrelatives were once immigrants too.

No matter how much you try to obscure the issue by conflating legal immigration with illegal immigration, it won't work. There's a vast difference between our ancestors who came here legally and the thousands who flaunt our laws and pour across the border with encouragement from one party and their promise of free stuff.

 

[TorontoGold]

Todays Nativists are so funny and ironic. It’s funny because their recentrelatives were once immigrants too.

What blows my *mind* is that they're always from some podunk place that would die to have a Shawarma place or a bomb Pho spot. But oh no no those terrible immigrants will ruin the great culture of Dayton. Give me a break lol.

"You wouldn't want immigrants!!!!111"
"Sure, give me labour to help with the labour shortage we're experiencing"
".....but they're going to vote for your parties aligned with you!"
"Change your messaging to include people of colour in your target base?
"Nah, immigrants are bad!"

Literally every argument.

 

[arahop]

Todays Nativists are so funny and ironic. It’s funny because their recentrelatives were once immigrants too.

They think they are superior to Native Americans. They don't count them. That would be inconvenient to their narrative

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

They spend all their time demonizing and make non white life’s harder and then are all “whoa whoa whoa! We aren’t racists.

They think they are superior to Native Americans. They don't count them. That would be inconvenient to their narrative

it’s like Bill the Butcher in gangs of New York. Lol so full of shit

 

[arahop]

No matter how much you try to obscure the issue by conflating legal immigration with illegal immigration, it won't work. There's a vast difference between our ancestors who came here legally and the thousands who flaunt our laws and pour across the border with encouragement from one party and their promise of free stuff.

Wrong. America wasn't fair to the Native Americans. They were strong armed and just didn't have firearms.

 

[TorontoGold]

They spend all their time demonizing and make non white life’s harder and then are all “whoa whoa whoa! We aren’t racists.

it’s like Bill the Butcher in gangs of New York. Lol so full of shit

Stop Cack, just stop, you know that back in the 1940's the Democrats were the party that appeased the KKK. But don't look at recent history that shows white supremacist's find safe haven with the GOP. Therefore, bingo bango bongo the Left = racists. Also, I'm not against legal citizens voting I just don't anyone that is the kid of or an immigrant to vote even though they would be paying taxes. They're promised free stuff! I wish I could crawl into a metal cage with 50 other people and get all the tremendous benefits that they get. How dare they! We all know how easy that society makes it on immigrants, they're treated so well and haven't been called rapists and criminals.

Absolutely brain melting stuff, it's no wonder that they can't find any sort of support for these positions.

Live look at the sad squad formulating a response without including any non-emotional appeal based arguments.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Wrong. America wasn't fair to the Native Americans. They were strong armed and just didn't have firearms.

Stop conflating issues and trying to muddy the water to avoid addressing the issue under discussion. One party encourages illegal aliens to pour into the country in an attempt to shift the demographics in their favor. Every person in this discussion knows that. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Half of us point it out, while the other half does everything it can to obfuscate, spin, and avoid the reality of the situation.

 

[Bishop2b5]

What blows my *mind* is that they're always from some podunk place that would die to have a Shawarma place or a bomb Pho spot. But oh no no those terrible immigrants will ruin the great culture of Dayton. Give me a break lol.

"You wouldn't want immigrants!!!!111"
"Sure, give me labour to help with the labour shortage we're experiencing"
".....but they're going to vote for your parties aligned with you!"
"Change your messaging to include people of colour in your target base?
"Nah, immigrants are bad!"

Literally every argument.

None of us are against immigration. We're against millions of ILLEGAL immigrants pouring across our border.

You've made it very obvious (you've mentioned it and complained about it several times) that I struck a nerve when I pointed out that the arguments from the Left are overwhelmingly emotional in nature instead of factual and rational. Go back and read your post which boils down to the completely dishonest, "They hate immigrants!" and you'll see why my assertion is so true.

 

[TorontoGold]

None of us are against immigration. We're against millions of ILLEGAL immigrants pouring across our border.

You've made it very obvious (you've mentioned it and complained about it several times) that I struck a nerve when I pointed out that the arguments from the Left are overwhelmingly emotional in nature instead of factual and rational. Go back and read your post which boils down to the completely dishonest, "They hate immigrants!" and you'll see why my assertion is so true.

So you're ok with the current immigration levels then? Because the original point that I was arguing with PL on was both legal and illegal. So you can go back and re-read that.

Because literally every post is some emotional appeal, Cack posted the impact of immigration and the benefits - crickets. I've repeatedly asked for support to PL's claims - crickets. Everything is just feelings based stuff. You want to have legitimacy behind your positions? Use stats. I've written papers on immigration (none published unfortunately) with economics professors so the shear lack of any statistical support behind anyone's arguments is laughable.

I miss YJ he at least used numbers to support his positions. Praet too.

 

[Bishop2b5]

I'm ok with current LEGAL immigration. I might quibble with a few minor issues and numbers, but overall there's no major problem there. What I abhor in these discussions is the dishonest spin and arguing in bad faith. In every discussion I've seen on this issue, sooner or later someone will try to conflate legal and illegal immigration and claim those of us against one are against all. I know why they do it and I'm sure you know too. I'm just not going to let them do that dishonest crap without calling them on it.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Toronto man. You get crickets because nobody wants to take the time to engage you. You conflate, deflect on a constant basis.

The people that actually engage you make the mistake of not focusing on one small point at a time.

I thought about posting stuff in regards to your remarkable take that the Dem’s stance on illegal immigration has nothing to do with politics. I even found a wonderful NPR article from 2013 when some of this stuff was coming to a head. I didn’t post it because debating you is like chasing after the wind.

I’m certain you will respond to this, because you always feel compelled to respond. I will not respond in turn. I will not participate in the TorontoGold “Debate” Vortex of Death.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Because I said is a shit argument lol.

 

[TorontoGold]

I'm the one who's kept it to the original point that PL had made. Literally responding to his original two points in the initial post. I haven't moved the goal posts.

I never once said Dems stance of illegal immigration has nothing to do with politics. Quote where I said that, should be easy enough to do, no?

I appreciate the previous discussions I've had with PL22 because there are times he's used stats to support his points. We've conceded points to each other. However, it seems others would rather take the emotional approach.

Always interesting to see that some only engage once the discussion moves past the stats.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Toronto man. You get crickets because nobody wants to take the time to engage you. You conflate, deflect on a constant basis.

The people that actually engage you make the mistake of not focusing on one small point at a time.

I thought about posting stuff in regards to your remarkable take that the Dem’s stance on illegal immigration has nothing to do with politics. I even found a wonderful NPR article from 2013 when some of this stuff was coming to a head. I didn’t post it because debating you is like chasing after the wind.

I’m certain you will respond to this, because you always feel compelled to respond. I will not respond in turn. I will not participate in the TorontoGold “Debate” Vortex of Death.

That’s what proper debates are all about. Assertions supported by facts. You address one point at a time. It used to be like that. I recall manny many posts by many layers where they would address point by point. It’s not like that at all now. He is right. Lots of logical fallacies and gaslighting and no real debate because no one wants to be challenged.

I posted a thorough study showing that immigrants pay a more representative portion of state and federal taxes that Natives. Crickets… immigrants still bad! Our food stores would be barren. Immigrants bad!!!!! Our population would be decreasing if not for immigrants. Immigrants !!!!! All appeals to emotion. All fallacious an unproductive to discussion.

 

[drayer54]

That’s what proper debates are all about. Assertions supported by facts. You address one point at a time. It used to be like that. I recall manny many posts by many layers where they would address point by point. It’s not like that at all now. He is right. Lots of logical fallacies and gaslighting and no real debate because no one wants to be challenged.

Can you educate me as to where I can find stats on how many people crossed here and where they are now? How about how many government benefits they've collected since? How many have committed a crime? Where do I find the stats on the videos of these people piling over the border and encountered by nobody or those from eyewitness accounts who live in the border area? Where are these stats maintained? If the stats don't exist, did this crossing even happen?