Another Shooting

[ulukinatme]

It still makes me very uneasy that in order to feel safe from these random shootings the solution is for me to be armed myself, which would require documentation, licensing and training on how to handle a firearm. The solution just circles back to guns. Teachers having them in classrooms, pastors in churches, concealed carry by regular citizens at grocery stores and malls.

I really should be able to just go to the mall unarmed and come home safely minus all the nonsense. I'm sure some will say that's not realistic and is asking too much, which really symbolizes a big part of the problem that we've come to the point that asking that is above and beyond citizenship here in America.

The truth is Pandora's Box is opened. There are nearly 400 million guns in this country, more than there are people. You couldn't collect them all even if you tried, and they won't be able to. 3D gun technology has come a long way in the last decade. I only watched about 2/3 of this documentary, but they talk about how it was predicted in 2013 that 3D technology would evolve to a point where the government couldn't stop them. The firing range demonstrations halfway in were surprising. It's some eye opening stuff.



The solution doesn't necessarily need to be more guns, but it can't be nothing either. I think schools should have at least one officer per x number of students (Job creation!). At the very least every school needs to have all exterior doors locked at all times with buzzed in entry. Many already have that, but for whatever reason Uvalde did not or the door was propped open I guess. Classroom doors should probably all be locked when class is in session as well. Metal detectors could help sound the alarm sooner. One school has a security system that deploys smoke in hallways during an active threat to reduce visibility.

The location is the big thing. These sickos aren't going into residential neighborhoods and searching house to house for targets. They're going after the most vulnerable locations with lots of easy targets sadly: schools, malls, and the like. Since taking all the guns is a pipe dream you have to fortify and deter vulnerable locations like this to prevent or limit incidents. Malls seem to get hit more often in the summers when schools are out, it might come down to limiting mall access to 2-3 doors with metal detectors and security guards scanning people as they come in. The more targets and lighter restrictions, the greater chance a mentally ill individual decides to use that location.

 

[Irish#1]

This kid is not a one off

Look at the "type"
Isolated
tried to trash his computer
Went down the facebook rabbit hole, mestastazing both his isolation and his anger and resentment, for that is precisely what facebook does.

and a lot of people on here come from healthy communicative Domer families.
Look at Jonathan Douglas Sapirman

"No violent tendencies" Sure, that's convenient

But then do the forensics on the laptop he tried to burn. You may not be able to unsee the stuff on there.

american, we have a problem, and it is HUGE!

Narrowing that down a little, it's almost always a young white male around 20-25.

Reading the below, even if I had a gun, I have no idea if I could remain that calm.

From WTRV.com

Sapirman fired 24 rounds in about two minutes, Ison said. A bystander, Elisjsha Dicken, pulled a handgun and shot Sapirman to death, police said.

Dicken, who lives in Seymour, fired the first shot from a distance of about 40 to 50 yards, Ison said.
"With a handgun to be that accurate, he was an excellent shot," Ison said. "He (Dicken) then advanced towards the suspect to make sure that he was no longer a threat. As he was moving towards the suspect very tactically, he was motioning for people to exit behind him."
Dicken, 22, has no military or law enforcement training, Ison said. Dicken told investigators that his grandfather taught him how to shoot.
"So this young man has his wits about him. He acted very calmly," Ison said. "Matter of fact, when I first saw it my first question was 'is that a police officer?'”

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Yes, you should be able to do those things without a gun. Agree.

However, the world is not safe. The social justice movement has weakened enforcement of laws and put more bad people on the street. I don’t want to have to carry. I’d rather not have to think about it and whether or not I need to disarm before going in somewhere. I don’t think teachers need guns. I know a lot of teachers and think that is a bad idea. Having a couple in the building is smart though.

Your public safety and well being shouldn't depend on me carrying a gun to protect us. Our tax dollars go to police departments and when civilians with bad intentions are more heavily armed than the police, that's bad for everyone.

Law enforcement should be able to do their jobs: serve and protect. There should, however, be accountability for them when needed. There appear to be a lot of bad apples out there who are supposed to be the "good guys", and without accountability those officers may as well be just as much of a threat as the criminals. We have to face facts that some of these guys out there are just meatheads. We know now because we have phones that can film everything. Think about the time when we didn't that and even now think about all the things that go down that don't get recorded.

So we want the good guys to do their jobs, the bad ones to be held accountable and sent to bank guard duty, and violent offenders punished with jail time. Where does it begin? Better schools? More resources for police and social workers? More resources for the judicial system? Closing schools, mental health centers, tearing down housing sure didn't help Chicago. Saved tax payers money, though, which is always good for anyone trying to win another election.

Our militarized police forces is another issue. Realizing that we were in two wars in the Middle East at once, that equipment had to go somewhere and a lot of it went to our local police departments. There used to be a tracker where you could see the vehicles and weapons police departments around the country were getting from the US Military. Maybe it was the New York Times. My county had quite an arsenal courtesy of used equipment in Fallujah.

The first time I really recall visualization of it was the Boston Marathon Bombing. Here's this town in suburban Boston that had pretty sophisticated police equipment looking for two guys.

I remember thinking, "Those must be Feds." Nope. Watertown Police. Town of 35K. Now every Fourth of July Parade, I can't help but notice what my own village has on hand. So while I don't want my local police having to deal with dudes running around with AR 15s, I also don't want my suburban police department developing a warrior cop syndrome because they have all kinds of cool toys to intimidate citizens with. If they chose to.

Criminal Justice Reform is another big issue we face right now. Would solve a lot of our issues if we could start moving forward with solutions, of which there are many, but the hyperpolarized political world we are in gets in the way. Most of my adult interactions with police have been good. I grew up on the Northwest side of Chicago in Copland. We were one of the few non police families in our neighborhood and one of the few Italian families. Let's just say that wasn't as positive as it could have been.

Everyone should be held accountable. Bottom line.

Bit of a rant. Apologies.

 

[irishff1014]

Your public safety and well being shouldn't depend on me carrying a gun to protect us. Our tax dollars go to police departments and when civilians with bad intentions are more heavily armed than the police, that's bad for everyone.

Law enforcement should be able to do their jobs: serve and protect. There should, however, be accountability for them when needed. There appear to be a lot of bad apples out there who are supposed to be the "good guys", and without accountability those officers may as well be just as much of a threat as the criminals. We have to face facts that some of these guys out there are just meatheads. We know now because we have phones that can film everything. Think about the time when we didn't that and even now think about all the things that go down that don't get recorded.

So we want the good guys to do their jobs, the bad ones to be held accountable and sent to bank guard duty, and violent offenders punished with jail time. Where does it begin? Better schools? More resources for police and social workers? More resources for the judicial system? Closing schools, mental health centers, tearing down housing sure didn't help Chicago. Saved tax payers money, though, which is always good for anyone trying to win another election.

Our militarized police forces is another issue. Realizing that we were in two wars in the Middle East at once, that equipment had to go somewhere and a lot of it went to our local police departments. There used to be a tracker where you could see the vehicles and weapons police departments around the country were getting from the US Military. Maybe it was the New York Times. My county had quite an arsenal courtesy of used equipment in Fallujah.

The first time I really recall visualization of it was the Boston Marathon Bombing. Here's this town in suburban Boston that had pretty sophisticated police equipment looking for two guys.

I remember thinking, "Those must be Feds." Nope. Watertown Police. Town of 35K. Now every Fourth of July Parade, I can't help but notice what my own village has on hand. So while I don't want my local police having to deal with dudes running around with AR 15s, I also don't want my suburban police department developing a warrior cop syndrome because they have all kinds of cool toys to intimidate citizens with. If they chose to.

Criminal Justice Reform is another big issue we face right now. Would solve a lot of our issues if we could start moving forward with solutions, of which there are many, but the hyperpolarized political world we are in gets in the way. Most of my adult interactions with police have been good. I grew up on the Northwest side of Chicago in Copland. We were one of the few non police families in our neighborhood and one of the few Italian families. Let's just say that wasn't as positive as it could have been.

Everyone should be held accountable. Bottom line.

Bit of a rant. Apologies.

That's just the problem though. The courts and DA's are doing their job look at Baltimore. I just saw an article that the governor posted (i will try to find it) that said like 78% of the violent crimes were committed by a criminal that shouldn't have been on the street.

Not violent crime it was just murders.

'The victims in these cases didn't have to die': study on city homicides released

A new report entitled

foxbaltimore.com

 

[Rockin’Irish]

That's just the problem though. The courts and DA's are doing their job look at Baltimore. I just saw an article that the governor posted (i will try to find it) that said like 78% of the violent crimes were committed by a criminal that shouldn't have been on the street.

It’s definitely going to take a multi-pronged approach to curb all the gun violence and therein lies the rub. Extremely difficult to get people on the same page on just about any of the options to use. Violent offenders out on the streets, tons of illegally obtained firearms, people living in poverty, mental illness, lack of ability to keep firearms and other weapons out of the hands of folks that shouldn’t have them, disrespect for the police, lack of accountability, blame game, etc.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

So many major issues and they all seem to tie in together one way or another.

 

[drayer54]

Your public safety and well being shouldn't depend on me carrying a gun to protect us. Our tax dollars go to police departments and when civilians with bad intentions are more heavily armed than the police, that's bad for everyone.

Law enforcement should be able to do their jobs: serve and protect. There should, however, be accountability for them when needed. There appear to be a lot of bad apples out there who are supposed to be the "good guys", and without accountability those officers may as well be just as much of a threat as the criminals. We have to face facts that some of these guys out there are just meatheads. We know now because we have phones that can film everything. Think about the time when we didn't that and even now think about all the things that go down that don't get recorded.

So we want the good guys to do their jobs, the bad ones to be held accountable and sent to bank guard duty, and violent offenders punished with jail time. Where does it begin? Better schools? More resources for police and social workers? More resources for the judicial system? Closing schools, mental health centers, tearing down housing sure didn't help Chicago. Saved tax payers money, though, which is always good for anyone trying to win another election.

Our militarized police forces is another issue. Realizing that we were in two wars in the Middle East at once, that equipment had to go somewhere and a lot of it went to our local police departments. There used to be a tracker where you could see the vehicles and weapons police departments around the country were getting from the US Military. Maybe it was the New York Times. My county had quite an arsenal courtesy of used equipment in Fallujah.

The first time I really recall visualization of it was the Boston Marathon Bombing. Here's this town in suburban Boston that had pretty sophisticated police equipment looking for two guys.

I remember thinking, "Those must be Feds." Nope. Watertown Police. Town of 35K. Now every Fourth of July Parade, I can't help but notice what my own village has on hand. So while I don't want my local police having to deal with dudes running around with AR 15s, I also don't want my suburban police department developing a warrior cop syndrome because they have all kinds of cool toys to intimidate citizens with. If they chose to.

Criminal Justice Reform is another big issue we face right now. Would solve a lot of our issues if we could start moving forward with solutions, of which there are many, but the hyperpolarized political world we are in gets in the way. Most of my adult interactions with police have been good. I grew up on the Northwest side of Chicago in Copland. We were one of the few non police families in our neighborhood and one of the few Italian families. Let's just say that wasn't as positive as it could have been.

Everyone should be held accountable. Bottom line.

Bit of a rant. Apologies.

I’m thinking of people who are several minutes away from a 911 response, Americans trapped in blm mobs where police weren’t responding, people stuck in shutdown highways with violent mobs attacking them, people who live in cities with defunded police and soaring crime, people facing violent repeat offenders released by liberal bail reform laws, and those who have drug runners running by their border home to realize that trusting law enforcement for my safety just doesn’t work.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I’m thinking of people who are several minutes away from a 911 response, Americans trapped in blm mobs where police weren’t responding, people stuck in shutdown highways with violent mobs attacking them, people who live in cities with defunded police and soaring crime, people facing violent repeat offenders released by liberal bail reform laws, and those who have drug runners running by their border home to realize that trusting law enforcement for my safety just doesn’t work.

Jesus Touchdown Christ, where do you live?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Jesus Touchdown Christ, where do you live?

Sounds like Portland to me.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Sounds like Portland to me.

I'm talking about not getting clipped at the grocery store or mall.

But I'm picking up what you're all putting down here.

 

[Poirette]

Jesus Touchdown Christ, where do you live?

arguably, in a pineapple, under the sea

Do the math

 

[Rockin’Irish]

I'm talking about not getting clipped at the grocery store or mall.

But I'm picking up what you're all putting down here.

Unfortunately it almost doesn’t matter where you are…….you have to be super aware of your surroundings otherwise you are quite possibly a target. I catch myself watching people for suspicious activity wherever I am which is a crappy way to live. Being pummeled by the media 24/7 showing all the bold criminal activity certainly doesn’t help. Lots of folks with hair triggers out there.

 

[Poirette]

There's only one answer: Reopen the insane asylums.
It would get 50% of the homeless off the street and give these crazy people a place to go for the "help" they need.

Obviously they would need to be run very strictly with constant monitoring to avoid the horror stories of the past.

I will respond honestly, even if you find it inadequate.

NOBODY MAKES MEGABUCKS from good mental health counseling and live in service.

Medicare? Medicaid? Sure, you can load up on SURGERIES, Procedures and drugs

and the Doctors
the megahospitals
Big Pharma
Surgical equipment manufacturers

can tack on HUGE profit margins

To really grapple with mental health, if I may presume, we need people with souls like Yours and the two people I had lunch with and me

to staff a housing for mental health , call it an asylum (ironice word choice, eh?)

And sit there and have us listen about 80& of the time, and talk, and coax, and cajole and explore, and coach and mentor, empathically, but with accountability and support. It's a tough needle to thread, You could do it I could do it. My two lunchmates from today could do it. In a SAFE place, where you can speak and emote openly, without fear of retribution

But nobody's gonna get rich
\
And that's why it will not happen

Because the other word for "God" is compassion.

and it has vanished

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Unfortunately it almost doesn’t matter where you are…….you have to be super aware of your surroundings otherwise you are quite possibly a target. I catch myself watching people for suspicious activity wherever I am which is a crappy way to live. Being pummeled by the media 24/7 showing all the bold criminal activity certainly doesn’t help. Lots of folks with hair triggers out there.

100% true.

I look around everywhere I go. Where are the exits? Approx how many people are in the room?

I've been that way for years, though. I also know the layout of the elementary school where my kids go like the back of my hand.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Crime Rate by State 2026

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

This puts things in an interesting perspective as far as crime rates go.

Louisiana has the highest homicide rate by a good margin and nobody in the media talks about them.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

100% true.

I look around everywhere I go. Where are the exits? Approx how many people are in the room?

I've been that way for years, though. I also know the layout of the elementary school where my kids go like the back of my hand.

I'm the same way. I'm not a SEAL, but I am a trained vet. I continue my training to this day, although 80% of it is in the winter when the golf courses are closed.
I sit with my back to the wall in every public setting and in the last row of the movie theater. No one walks up from behind me.

I've been sizing up everyone I see since a was a kid. Reading their intentions.
Growing up on the west side of Chicago will do that for you.

 

[Blazers46]

Crime Rate by State 2026

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

worldpopulationreview.com

This puts things in an interesting perspective as far as crime rates go.

Louisiana has the highest homicide rate by a good margin and nobody in the media talks about them.

Louisiana is a state. So is Illinois and Missouri. Nobody talked about Illinois or Missouri murder rates but they do Chicago and St Lou. Media opining on a whole State murder levels would have less affect on the listener probably. If you isolate it to cities people tend to listen more. Chicago is probably behind 3 different Louisiana cities in murder rate but people talk Chicago on sheer volume, when their murder rate is usually behind Indianapolis.

St Louis is usually #1 and they rarely get talked about because the volume in Chicago just sounds scarier. If it bleeds, it leads. If you isolated the South Side from the North Side the murder rate would be maybe just as high as any part of another other city I would guess.

 

[drayer54]

Jesus Touchdown Christ, where do you live?

Everything on that list has happened in the US in the last two years.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Louisiana is a state. So is Illinois and Missouri. Nobody talked about Illinois or Missouri murder rates but they do Chicago and St Lou. Media opining on a whole State murder levels would have less affect on the listener probably. If you isolate it to cities people tend to listen more. Chicago is probably behind 3 different Louisiana cities in murder rate but people talk Chicago on sheer volume, when their murder rate is usually behind Indianapolis.

St Louis is usually #1 and they rarely get talked about because the volume in Chicago just sounds scarier. If it bleeds, it leads. If you isolated the South Side from the North Side the murder rate would be maybe just as high as any part of another other city I would guess.

I would agree to a degree, definitely.

I would also say that Chicago has been a constant talking point in this regard since a Kenyan community organizer became POTUS. That narrative went full throttle around 2015-16 as said Socialist Muslim with the faux Hawaii birth certificate took office. The city has it's problems, without question, but much of the dialogue is coming from exaggeration being dictated from a place of political opportunism. Illinois votes a certain way, Chicago votes a certain way.

So most outlets are not going to talk about St. Louis or Memphis.

The West and South sides of Chicago are the worst. You can isolate the majority of the issues down to a few square blocks in all reality. All the public housing that got torn down was like setting off a bomb. They don't need the National Guard, but they most certainly could use a little more municipal elbow grease to improve matters significantly.

Doesn't help that the last couple of mayors and the current one are clowns, either. That elbow grease isn't coming from the city hall currently.

Highly recommended viewing. About an hour of your time: Chicago at the Crossroad

 

[drayer54]

This St. Louis?

 

[ab2cmiller]

Greenwood police clarified the timeline. Good Samaritan took down the gunman within 15 seconds from the gunman exiting the restroom and start shooting.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

Apparently Sapirman went into the restroom with a duffel bag and didn’t come out for like an hour……makes you wonder if Dicken was just sitting out there waiting for him to exit expecting something was up. If he wasn’t waiting then those are some impressive reflexes.

 

[Blazers46]

I would agree to a degree, definitely.

I would also say that Chicago has been a constant talking point in this regard since a Kenyan community organizer became POTUS. That narrative went full throttle around 2015-16 as said Socialist Muslim with the faux Hawaii birth certificate took office. The city has it's problems, without question, but much of the dialogue is coming from exaggeration being dictated from a place of political opportunism. Illinois votes a certain way, Chicago votes a certain way.

So most outlets are not going to talk about St. Louis or Memphis.

The West and South sides of Chicago are the worst. You can isolate the majority of the issues down to a few square blocks in all reality. All the public housing that got torn down was like setting off a bomb. They don't need the National Guard, but they most certainly could use a little more municipal elbow grease to improve matters significantly.

Doesn't help that the last couple of mayors and the current one are clowns, either. That elbow grease isn't coming from the city hall currently.

Highly recommended viewing. About an hour of your time: Chicago at the Crossroad

I don’t agree to disagree. I think you just agreed with me without thinking you did.

 

[GATTACA!]

US youth firearm mortality increases over the past decade; trends differ significantly across states

Not a day goes by without reports of more tragic incidents of gun violence against children. In 2020, firearms were the leading cause of death in children in the United States. While alarm at increasingly frequent school shootings, suicides, accidents, and other senseless deaths is mounting, the...

www.eurekalert.org

The four states that did not have an upward trend in gun violence affecting children were New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and California, and have subsequently been shown to have strong laws to prevent child access to guns. Seven states with the highest rates of increased child-related gun violence (more than a 70% increase) were South Carolina, Arkansas, Colorado, Ohio, Kansas, Texas, and Indiana. Dr. Price stated, "Four of these states do not have child access prevention laws and two have weak laws.” Eighteen states had too few incidents in either 2010 or 2019 to reliably predict a trend.

According to Dr. Price, “The message is clear: States with more guns have more gun homicides, suicides, and unintentional deaths. States with strong laws that limit access have fewer gun deaths. While solutions proposed by most legislators show a lack of knowledge about the research in this area, we hope the leaders of the 26 states with increased firearm mortality will take heed of these findings.”

 

[irishff1014]

Unfortunately it almost doesn’t matter where you are…….you have to be super aware of your surroundings otherwise you are quite possibly a target. I catch myself watching people for suspicious activity wherever I am which is a crappy way to live. Being pummeled by the media 24/7 showing all the bold criminal activity certainly doesn’t help. Lots of folks with hair triggers out there.

I work for 911 so i know everything that goes on in the areas i travel. So i am always looking around being prepared and i know where not to go at certain times.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I don’t agree to disagree. I think you just agreed with me without thinking you did.

I said agree to A DEGREE, not agree to disagree.

Ultimately, yes, Chicago's violence does better with ratings that violence everywhere else. It's an American issue in many states regardless of how they voted in the last election.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

Everything on that list has happened in the US in the last two years.

I get where you're coming from, and I've looked back at enough of your posts in these political forums to have a firm understanding of where that is.

Ultimately, then, we've arrived at a place where we can't trust the police our tax dollars pay for to protect us so the answer is to arm civilians to prevent further shootings and the ANTIFA mob. Cliff notes summary.

My contention is preventing anymore of these high powered weapons from being on the street. Offer buy back programs at the local, county and state levels. Embolden police to do their jobs but hold the corrupt ones accountable and no longer allow them to get away with violating our rights as they see fit.

There are officers who currently won't even get out of their vehicles to spite District Attorneys and politicians they don't agree with. That's happening in places like Chicago and Baltimore (Baltimore PD was a complete shit show after Freddy Gray). I think it's high time these ass clowns who we elect and whose salaries come from our taxes get their shit together and start doing their jobs.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

I get where you're coming from, and I've looked back at enough of your posts in these political forums to have a firm understanding of where that is.

Ultimately, then, we've arrived at a place where we can't trust the police our tax dollars pay for to protect us so the answer is to arm civilians to prevent further shootings and the ANTIFA mob. Cliff notes summary.

My contention is preventing anymore of these high powered weapons from being on the street. Offer buy back programs at the local, county and state levels. Embolden police to do their jobs but hold the corrupt ones accountable and no longer allow them to get away with violating our rights as they see fit.

There are officers who currently won't even get out of their vehicles to spite District Attorneys and politicians they don't agree with. That's happening in places like Chicago and Baltimore (Baltimore PD was a complete shit show after Freddy Gray). I think it's high time these ass clowns who we elect and whose salaries come from our taxes get their shit together and start doing their jobs.

I certainly agree with your overall thoughts here but would probably want to add some additional clarification (I know you didn’t ask for that but maybe some of my thoughts may make sense). I would like to see the ability for high powered weapons to be kept out of the hands of people not responsible enough to own them. A buyback program would be a great start. I would also like to see a tiered approach to firearm ownership. You want to buy a semiautomatic rifle/assault weapon? Then you must be 25 years old, pass a background check and you must show you have a standard amount of training to handle that particular weapon. Similar to obtaining a commercial driver’s license and driving a tractor/trailer, you must have X hours of training, certification, etc. Some dude who just turns 18 and wants to buy an assault weapon with 500 rounds of ammo is just an accident waiting to happen (and I use the word accident very loosely). Regarding the police, they should definitely be held accountable for their actions but their “bosses” (councilpeople, mayors, governors, DA’s, etc.) also have to show support for them to do their jobs properly. It is an exceedingly tough occupation, especially in our cities. I would also like to see the public not rush to judgement everytime a police officer injures someone because the person injured “didn’t deserve it” because they were really a good person. Sometimes that is true but often times the person was breaking the law (and not just once) and it’s a razor thin line between not enough action and too much action. Thorough training of the officers is of utmost importance but they are still human beings. Too much burden on the police officers and not enough accountability for the general population of law breakers nor our esteemed elected officials. It seems that the criminals have gotten bolder and our police have gotten hesitant, it’s not that difficult to see why.

 

[Jiggafini19Deux]

I mean, he's not wrong, I'll give him that.

 

[Rockin’Irish]

I mean, he's not wrong, I'll give him that.

It could be true, especially depending on how “active shooter” is defined…….there are probably active shooters 24/7.