Offensive Line Thread

[IrishLax]

Not according to what we've been hearing now. Word is Harry's guys were going to him during the off season to get coached up. That's pretty telling on a lack of coaching ability on Quinn's part if it's true. If they really felt he was doing a good job wouldn't they go to their current OL coach if they felt they needed extra help?

Yeah, and this rumor is 100% true and a bad look, especially because it was facilitated by Chris Watt who was a GA. That means Watt didn't think that they were getting coached well.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Yeah, and this rumor is 100% true and a bad look, especially because it was facilitated by Chris Watt who was a GA. That means Watt didn't think that they were getting coached well.

Ah, thank you for this.

 

[Crazy Balki]

They were going to him during the season too. How much extra time do you think college athletes have to be getting addition training from their former coach? It's amazing they spent any extra time seeking Harry out. Have you seen their daily itineraries?
Quinn deserves to get the axe.

If they were meeting him during the season, the instruction was minimal at best.

There's no way they're spending all that time in practice, conditioning, in class, in film study and then going to Harry's place for any more than complementary instruction.

The idea that they're literally gearing up and running drills for a significant amount of time regularly is extremely difficult to believe.

I can see it where they sought instruction from Harry in the offseason and met with him on occasion for technical touch-ups, but anything beyond that is highly improbable.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Yeah, and this rumor is 100% true and a bad look, especially because it was facilitated by Chris Watt who was a GA. That means Watt didn't think that they were getting coached well.

Same people who spread this rumor also said Quinn didn't do film study.

This has since been proven false.

 

[Armyirish47]

Watching Hiestand turn into Bill Brasky in real time is really something special.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Watching Hiestand turn into Bill Brasky in real time is really something special.

He wasn't really a big name as a position coach prior to his stint with Notre Dame.

So I think there was more than just Harry Hiestand behind that success.

 

[Dale]

Yeah, and this rumor is 100% true and a bad look, especially because it was facilitated by Chris Watt who was a GA. That means Watt didn't think that they were getting coached well.

If it’s to the negative extent of that, that’s poor leadership by the guys off to the NFL and by Watt. I know BK likes Quinn but I can’t imagine a scenario where the players were upfront with Kelly with everything and he just dismissed it or let it go. That’s a toxic OL room that is now biting us this year and let’s down the underclassmen that followed them

 

[BoredIrish]

Yeah, and this rumor is 100% true and a bad look, especially because it was facilitated by Chris Watt who was a GA. That means Watt didn't think that they were getting coached well.

Do we know that they "were going to him" or was it that they "went to him"? IIRC, one visit was confirmed but I'm not sure where the notion of going multiple times comes from?

Furthermore... Harry is an Ex-NFL coach. I'm not sure why it is so strange that aspiring NFL O-Linemen would go visit an Ex-NFL O-Line coach who happens to live a stones throw from campus and who they have a long history with.

Lastly, isnt it well documented that Eichenberg was not a fan of Harry and that his development was stunted until Harry left?

On another note... for all the people calling for Chris Watt to come back, wasn't it reported that there was tension between Chip Long and Jeff Quinn? Presumably the fact that Watt went to work for Long would indicate that he was on Chip Long's side... and presumably Tommy and Lance Taylor were on the Quinn side. Not sure how that relationship would work?

 

[Crazy Balki]

He wasn't really a big name as a position coach prior to his stint with Notre Dame.

So I think there was more than just Harry Hiestand behind that success.

His first stint with the Bears started out really good. That 2006 line was elite. Shame they were hamstrung by having Rex Grossman their QB.

 

[NDRock]

Yeah, and this rumor is 100% true and a bad look, especially because it was facilitated by Chris Watt who was a GA. That means Watt didn't think that they were getting coached well.

Seems like it but is there any nuance to this story? Was Quinn and Kelly aware of this? As I wrote on another thread, QBs have been doing this for awhile. If it was only during the off-season when Quinn couldn’t have contact, then it’s a positive. If it was done under the table because Quinn is an idiot then that’s another story. I probably believe the latter is true. Unfortunately for us.

 

[NDRock]

He wasn't really a big name as a position coach prior to his stint with Notre Dame.

So I think there was more than just Harry Hiestand behind that success.

He was hated while at Tennessee which made me a little worried when he came to ND. Tennessee was a shitshow during those years so not sure he had a chance.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Do we know that they "were going to him" or was it that they "went to him"? IIRC, one visit was confirmed but I'm not sure where the notion of going multiple times comes from?

Furthermore... Harry is an Ex-NFL coach. I'm not sure why it is so strange that aspiring NFL O-Linemen would go visit an Ex-NFL O-Line coach who happens to live a stones throw from campus and who they have a long history with.

Lastly, isnt it well documented that Eichenberg was not a fan of Harry and that his development was stunted until Harry left?

On another note... for all the people calling for Chris Watt to come back, wasn't it reported that there was tension between Chip Long and Jeff Quinn? Presumably the fact that Watt went to work for Long would indicate that he was on Chip Long's side... and presumably Tommy and Lance Taylor were on the Quinn side. Not sure how that relationship would work?

Maybe, but it could be that Watt was simply still on good terms with Long, unlike Long and Quinn.

And he used his prior relationship to get a promotion. Can't say I blame him.

 

[IrishLax]

Do we know that they "were going to him" or was it that they "went to him"? IIRC, one visit was confirmed but I'm not sure where the notion of going multiple times comes from?

Furthermore... Harry is an Ex-NFL coach. I'm not sure why it is so strange that aspiring NFL O-Linemen would go visit an Ex-NFL O-Line coach who happens to live a stones throw from campus and who they have a long history with.

Lastly, isnt it well documented that Eichenberg was not a fan of Harry and that his development was stunted until Harry left?

On another note... for all the people calling for Chris Watt to come back, wasn't it reported that there was tension between Chip Long and Jeff Quinn? Presumably the fact that Watt went to work for Long would indicate that he was on Chip Long's side... and presumably Tommy and Lance Taylor were on the Quinn side. Not sure how that relationship would work?

Yeah, it's not abnormal to get extra work in with a specialist or expert. Almost all players do it. A lot of people think it's a total nothingburger, but I think it's a weird look to have one of your current coaches taking you to a former coach in order to get additional training.

On the tension thing -- to oversimplify this, Quinn and Long did not see eye-to-eye. I do not think that necessarily means that there were battle lines drawn with various assistants. I think when you're a GA you're looking for whatever job you can get and that's often with guys you have connections to.

 

[ulukinatme]

Same people who spread this rumor also said Quinn didn't do film study.

This has since been proven false.

Didn't hear about the film study, but Watt confirmed the players were going to Harry.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Didn't hear about the film study, but Watt confirmed the players were going to Harry.

I don't doubt that players were going to Harry for instruction.

I do question the level of instruction and it's overall impact. I have no doubts that they were going to him during the offseason and maybe occasional trips during the season for supplementary instruction. Anything beyond that is very difficult to believe, given how much of a workload these guys have to begin with.

 

[Luckylucci]

Seems like it but is there any nuance to this story? Was Quinn and Kelly aware of this? As I wrote on another thread, QBs have been doing this for awhile. If it was only during the off-season when Quinn couldn’t have contact, then it’s a positive. If it was done under the table because Quinn is an idiot then that’s another story. I probably believe the latter is true. Unfortunately for us.

There are a lot of threads out there talking about this so I may have missed it but Prister said that he couldn't confirm whether they knew or not.

It's hard for me to say whether I think this really is something big or something small because of some of the information we don't have.

On a side note, what I find interesting about this is. Apparently Eichenberg was one of the guys that HH really had it out for. There was a rumor that we might lose him to transfer if HH stuck around. Well, it doesn't seem like both can be true, does it?

He despises the coach so much that he didn't want to play for him. Yet, searches the coach out once gone for help. That is unless Quinn is just that bad at his job.

FWIW, Longo used to a be very good S&C coach revered by his players including pivotal players on the 2011 and 2012 squads. We see how that turned out.

 

[NDFAN420]

He wasn't really a big name as a position coach prior to his stint with Notre Dame.

So I think there was more than just Harry Hiestand behind that success.

He was very highly regarded after his stints with Illinois and The Bears.

 

[irishff1014]

BK mentioned it was fatigue for Austin. They aren't getting him enough rest during the first half to be fresher in the second half. Styles and Colzie should see the field more in the first half.

Then what does that say about his strength and positioning plan or coaching?

I thought S&C program was doing better.

 

[pumpdog20]

Bottom line is that you should never ever have an OL that ranks damn near last at ND. Bad should be middle of the pack. Every single offensive line we have gone against has had a better OL play, and maybe only Wisconsin recruits it better. Cain Madden was an all american last year. Who the hell cares if he played at Marshall. Even if he was way overrated, what does that mean, worst case scenario starting on a shitty Big Ten team? Well with us he's the worst one on the worst line in the country.

Even ND's recruiting back up plans should be a team full of individuals better than every team we've gone against outside of Wisconsin. This is on Quinn. With all that said, it can still be somewhat negated by playing Pyne over Coan.

 

[Dale]

Then what does that say about his strength and positioning plan or coaching?

I thought S&C program was doing better.

Reading between the lines physical and mental exhaustion of getting your butt kicked by a NFL CB all day is not a S&C issue

 

[Dale]

The Cain Madden was an All American stuff is something I’m sure Quinn and coaches around the country are learning from this season. OL play is a unit. You in many cases cannot simply take out and plug in a offensive lineman. Texas A&M and OU are getting burned by this too. Not to our extent but their OL issues are in part because expectations of a plug and play OT. The programs can do it, there are success stories too but I always remember there’s a reason a kid is transferring in most cases. Nobody may want to hear that BK, Quinn, Rees etc may have made the same mistake others, others we think are really smart guys, did but it’s true

 

[Crazy Balki]

Then what does that say about his strength and positioning plan or coaching?

I thought S&C program was doing better.

Nothing really.

Have to factor in that Austin, despite being a senior, has yet to play major snaps since he's been here up until this season. So, this increased workload of being a starter is new to him. He's yet to experience starter reps and the grind of a regular season.

Also had to go up against one of the top corners in the country a lot last week. Not an easy assignment.

 

[Irishize]

The Cain Madden was an All American stuff is something I’m sure Quinn and coaches around the country are learning from this season. OL play is a unit. You in many cases cannot simply take out and plug in a offensive lineman. Texas A&M and OU are getting burned by this too. Not to our extent but their OL issues are in part because expectations of a plug and play OT. The programs can do it, there are success stories too but I always remember there’s a reason a kid is transferring in most cases. Nobody may want to hear that BK, Quinn, Rees etc may have made the same mistake others, others we think are really smart guys, did but it’s true

ND OL zone blocks correct? Did Madden’s OL at Marshall use the same concepts?

 

[Irish#1]

On another note... for all the people calling for Chris Watt to come back, wasn't it reported that there was tension between Chip Long and Jeff Quinn? Presumably the fact that Watt went to work for Long would indicate that he was on Chip Long's side... and presumably Tommy and Lance Taylor were on the Quinn side. Not sure how that relationship would work?

There was tension between Long and darn near everyone, but I remember reading that Quinn wanted to utilize one blocking scheme where Long insisted on the other. IIRC, I think Quinn wanted to use zone.

Not sure Watts followed Long out of loyalty or more for advancement. GA's aren't well known, so they have to grab what's available to get a staff coaching position.

 

[NDRock]

I thought Long and Hiestand had a good working relationship.

 

[StPaul_Irish]

Bottom line is that you should never ever have an OL that ranks damn near last at ND. Bad should be middle of the pack. Every single offensive line we have gone against has had a better OL play, and maybe only Wisconsin recruits it better. Cain Madden was an all american last year. Who the hell cares if he played at Marshall. Even if he was way overrated, what does that mean, worst case scenario starting on a shitty Big Ten team? Well with us he's the worst one on the worst line in the country.

Even ND's recruiting back up plans should be a team full of individuals better than every team we've gone against outside of Wisconsin. This is on Quinn. With all that said, it can still be somewhat negated by playing Pyne over Coan.

^^^^THIS^^^^ I don't give a RATS A$$ if we lost all 5 guys from the OL to the NFL. We/EVERYONE expected a bit of a step back losing the guys/experience that we did, that goes without saying. However it is 1BAGILLION % on JQuinn that the guys behind him are not anywhere near ready to play and compete. Are these guys getting Zero instruction as 2nd/3rd team guys? It could be said that BK has some responsibility too. Why are we not getting guys some game experience then? I had more to say, but I had to work and forgot. Either way, Quinn has a lot of egg on his face for the play of the OL. These are top end guys out of HS, no excuses what so ever

 

[NDohio]

Bottom line is that you should never ever have an OL that ranks damn near last at ND. Bad should be middle of the pack. Every single offensive line we have gone against has had a better OL play, and maybe only Wisconsin recruits it better. Cain Madden was an all american last year. Who the hell cares if he played at Marshall. Even if he was way overrated, what does that mean, worst case scenario starting on a shitty Big Ten team? Well with us he's the worst one on the worst line in the country.

Even ND's recruiting back up plans should be a team full of individuals better than every team we've gone against outside of Wisconsin. This is on Quinn. With all that said, it can still be somewhat negated by playing Pyne over Coan.

I have seen several posters write about the failures of Madden being on Quinn. Not sure if that is what you are saying here, but I really don't get that thought process. The guy played three years in another program and was an All-American. Do we really think that Quinn has somehow destroyed everything that he has learned and made him play poorly? Maybe Madden is just in over his head and he was very good for the level he was playing but didn't expect the jump up to big boy football to be as big as it has been.

That being said, it is time for Quinn to go. I just don't think you can blame him for Madden.

 

[StPaul_Irish]

I have seen several posters write about the failures of Madden being on Quinn. Not sure if that is what you are saying here, but I really don't get that thought process. The guy played three years in another program and was an All-American. Do we really think that Quinn has somehow destroyed everything that he has learned and made him play poorly? Maybe Madden is just in over his head and he was very good for the level he was playing but didn't expect the jump up to big boy football to be as big as it has been.

That being said, it is time for Quinn to go. I just don't think you can blame him for Madden.

Explain his play vs Toledo. Comparable level of play to Marshall right?

 

[NDohio]

Explain his play vs Toledo. Comparable level of play to Marshall right?

But one of the biggest issues he has had is being pushed around. a fourth year guy of being in college football weight rooms shouldn't be getting pushed around like he is. That's not on Quinn.

 

[StPaul_Irish]

But one of the biggest issues he has had is being pushed around. a fourth year guy of being in college football weight rooms shouldn't be getting pushed around like he is. That's not on Quinn.

Maybe not, but it also could be. It could be/likely is one or some of the following.

- He is either really bad in general, and that is a scouting/evaluating mistake (on Quinn).
- He is being asked to do things he has never done/can't do (Quinn).
- He is being poorly taught/prepared (Quinn).
- He is covering mistakes of the other lineman thus slacking on his responsibilities (Quinn).
- He is the best we have, and we did a bad job of recurting/evaluating (Quinn)
- He is fat/slow/lazy and doesn't work hard (Madden)