Offensive Line Thread

[Reaper97]

Sorry I haven’t paid attention if this has been discussed…
Why not Patterson at LT, Baker at RT, Correll at Center, Lugg & Kristofic at Guards? With Madden & Carmody ready as needed?

 

[IrishLion]

Sorry I haven’t paid attention if this has been discussed…
Why not Patterson at LT, Baker at RT, Correll at Center, Lugg & Kristofic at Guards? With Madden & Carmody ready as needed?

It sounds like Patterson is truly "Center ONLY" for BK, and Correll appears to be a hardline member of the "best five" for Quinn based on how things have played out.

That really limits flexibility to the the little experimentation that we've already seen.

 

[Dale]

None of them are having the struggles we are but thought it was interesting, and hand up I underrated the ability to reload, how many big time Os are struggling because of OL play.

OU has OL issues, Bama for Bama has OL issues, A&M has some issues, Clemson is a OL mess. Shows how important the big boys are.

 

[T-Boone]

None of them are having the struggles we are but thought it was interesting, and hand up I underrated the ability to reload, how many big time Os are struggling because of OL play.

OU has OL issues, Bama for Bama has OL issues, A&M has some issues, Clemson is a OL mess. Shows how important the big boys are.

I reckon its because all the offenses have gone to pass crazy and the oliners have forgotten how to run block.

 

[SBirishlawyer]

Yeah but also noticed a couple close recruiting losses play well especially at right tackle in this West Virginia game. I get some of those we were maybe never gonna win the battle and missed some with covid year. But its not just missed it’s took too low of numbers and then seeing very little development I can credit Quinn with besides Patterson. It reminds me of the John McLeod basketball time when they said boy he cant recruit but an amazing coach. Then his teams couldn’t inbound, run an offense, or hit free throws and I thought well then what is he coaching right. This O line has more false starts, missed assigments, whiffs and straight being thrown on their ass then I have ever seen. The amount of regression of Joshua Lugg is galling. If he is injured(of which their is no indication) he shouldn’t be out there. But healthy that is the worst play we have had at that position by far and in the early Kelly years we were plugging in all types of just some guy at that spot. When the vast majority of nd talking heads either openly criticized him or stayed mum when things were going comparatively well told me all I needed to know. Also basically ditto all of the above for Delwood Alexandern. When your only outspoken vocal support is from the Atlanta based child rube that unfortunately replaced the Legend Lou Somogyi that also drives home the point.

 

[SBirishlawyer]

I got the we are so close to the bama level but for… this years weak link frustrations that I rant and I apologize to the extent I am over the top

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

I hate to call out individuals, especially when the entire Oline has been subpar, but Tosh Baker might be the worst offensive tackle to start a game in the Kelly era

 

[ulukinatme]

Quinn, it's not working out.

 

[TNUtoNotreDame]

The oline is

 

[GATTACA!]

Hiestand is available. Make it happen Kelly.

 

[BauerOutage]

I hate to call out individuals, especially when the entire Oline has been subpar, but Tosh Baker might be the worst offensive tackle to start a game in the Kelly era

 

[BauerOutage]

Funny how everyone is calling for Tommy Rees job when he’s been the best OC we’ve had in 5 years. But I guess he sucks since he only puts up 30+ points a game

 

[ulukinatme]

Funny how everyone is calling for Tommy Rees job when he’s been the best OC we’ve had in 5 years. But I guess he sucks since he only puts up 30+ points a game

Certainly can't knock the job he's done with the QBs. All 3 have been prepared and looked good in limited action. The fact we're 4-0 with a weak OL is commendable, it's a testament to the defense and the offensive skill positions. Tommy has smartly leaned on the passing game to offset the OL weakness. We're still giving up sacks, but we're not going to have a strong running game in our OL's current form.

 

[phillyirish]

Certainly can't knock the job he's done with the QBs. All 3 have been prepared and looked good in limited action. The fact we're 4-0 with a weak OL is commendable, it's a testament to the defense and the offensive skill positions. Tommy has smartly leaned on the passing game to offset the OL weakness. We're still giving up sacks, but we're not going to have a strong running game in our OL's current form.

But Tommy isn’t just the QB coach anymore. So the poor running game, weak Oline and sacks are his responsibility too.

Obviously Coan is limited with his movement, put I’d like to see more rollouts, screens and quick passes thrown in. Actually Coan has been very off with his short passing game. Seems the ball is always a little behind or low, but even the ones that are still catchable are not being brought in by the receivers. Both those issues are something the OC should be addressing. Coan’s best throw is his 30 yard pass, but getting those 3+ seconds to set the pass up is a coin flip at best with this Oline.

 

[NDRock]

Funny how everyone is calling for Tommy Rees job when he’s been the best OC we’ve had in 5 years. But I guess he sucks since he only puts up 30+ points a game

Honestly, everyone decent puts up 30+ points a game. Think the top 64 scoring offenses are averaging over 30 points so that's not a great indicator anymore. Our offense has scored less and less points every week of the season, while at the same time the defense has stepped up. The offense scored 20 points on 13 drives yesterday. That is poor.

 

[Jimmy3Putt]

Most teams are stacking the box, putting their corners on islands, and attacking this line. The lack of a running threat at quarterback has been massive. If Pyne or Tyler can start, the running game will improve. It won't be great or even good, but it will be serviceable and keep most defenses honest.

Now if we have to face one of the big boys, it will be ugly regardless who's quarterbacking this year.

With Tyler starting next year he forces teams to defend the entire field vertically and horizontally. That alone will make everyone better.

 

[Dale]

Most teams are stacking the box, putting their corners on islands, and attacking this line. The lack of a running threat at quarterback has been massive. If Pyne or Tyler can start, the running game will improve. It won't be great or even good, but it will be serviceable and keep most defenses honest.

Now if we have to face one of the big boys, it will be ugly regardless who's quarterbacking this year.

With Tyler starting next year he forces teams to defend the entire field vertically and horizontally. That alone will make everyone better.

The only team I thought brought in extra guys into the box was Toledo. That’s just the way Wisconsin plays.

 

[Armyirish47]

The only team I thought brought in extra guys into the box was Toledo. That’s just the way Wisconsin plays.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/ND_FB_Analytics/status/1442131678114189323[/TWEET]


I'm not going to pretend that the o-line is overperforming or anything but I think Coan amplifies any problems that do exist to a totally different level.

 

[BeauBenken]

I'm just going to say this, if anyone thinks that the line was going to show considerable improvement while playing the best front seven we'll play this year, I don't know what to tell you other than you're crazy.

I've got nothing against Coan and I certainly don't think our line's play has been good, but Coan does not help us. He does not throw the ball away to prevent sacks. He crumples when there is face pressure. And he doesn't have any escapability...at least far less than I had hoped.

I don't want to be someone who is quick to move on from someone, but even in limited reps, Drew showed he would at least step into pressure and make throws, not crumple up. His sack that lead to the fumble was at least 100% just us getting beat like a drum up front and not him not knowing what to do in the face of pressure.

 

[NDRock]

The only team I thought brought in extra guys into the box was Toledo. That’s just the way Wisconsin plays.

Yeah. I would never stack the box against this ND OL. You can easily get pressure rushing only 4 (probably just 3) which allows you to drop more in coverage, making the passing game easier to defend. This is what happened with Weis' later teams. We couldn't run the ball even when teams were playing nickel against us.

 

[irishandy]

I think ND's biggest downfall on offense side of the ball is our offensive line.

Coan may not be able to escape all the time when he is rushed, yes he could do a better job throwing the ball away, and surprisingly you would think he could be mobile when needed especially since he committed to ND as a lacrosse player.

Give Coan a line with pass protection and he'll give you 300 yards and 3 TD's a game.

 

[Crazy Balki]

I think ND's biggest downfall on offense side of the ball is our offensive line.

Coan may not be able to escape all the time when he is rushed, yes he could do a better job throwing the ball away, and surprisingly you would think he could be mobile when needed especially since he committed to ND as a lacrosse player.

Give Coan a line with pass protection and he'll give you 300 yards and 3 TD's a game.

The problem is that even with adequate protect, the guy is still giving up needless sacks and holding onto the ball too long. And in terms of facing pressure and, at the very least, avoiding negative plays by throwing it away or evading incoming pressure, Coan is ATROCIOUS.

He was sacked on half of the dropbacks where he was pressured. That's poor pocket awareness and escapability.

There's a reason why the offense looked better when Pyne took over. It's because he was able to move around and wasn't constantly stepping into sacks or sailing his receivers. He got the ball out with zip, moved out of the pocket and forced the defense to account for his mobility.

Ideally, Coan would have a better OL protecting him against an elite front. That just isn't in the cards. Too many injuries, too much changeover and lack of cohesion. Until this group can get some guys back and settle into a unit, improvement is going to be tough to come by.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Hiestand is available. Make it happen Kelly.

HARD pass.

Hiestand is a big part of why we're in this mess in the first place. That disaster of a 2018 OL class was his doing. Those are the veterans of this OL group and as of now, none of the guys Hiestand recruited are even in the 2-deep (Patterson was recruited and committed to Quinn).

 

[pumpdog20]

HARD pass.

Hiestand is a big part of why we're in this mess in the first place. That disaster of a 2018 OL class was his doing. Those are the veterans of this OL group and as of now, none of the guys Hiestand recruited are even in the 2-deep (Patterson was recruited and committed to Quinn).

Easy to place the blame on Hiestand about recruiting misses. Hard to know if it's recruiting misses or lack of development/coaching holding them back. I'm going with the latter.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Easy to place the blame on Hiestand about recruiting misses. Hard to know if it's recruiting misses or lack of development/coaching holding them back. I'm going with the latter.

It's very much the former, and it's clear as day.

When Quinn took over, we had 2 guys committed to the 2018 class in Mabry and Dirksen. Both guys were low 3-star recruits, one of which medically retired and the other is buried on the depth chart. Neither guy had high ceilings, but that was what comprised our current senior class.

Can't develop what isn't there. There's no getting around it, that's a putrid class. It's a bad class for lower Power 5 schools, much less Notre Dame.

There's really no question here. Hiestand screwed us royally and we're paying the price right now, because on a line that needed some cohesion and leadership, it's sorely lacking, because the seniors are providing next to nothing outside of Patterson, the guy Quinn had to nab in the final seconds.

That's not to say I'm ruling out a lack of development overall, but with how many issues the OL had to overcome with having to replace 4 starters and another guy coming back from injury and missing spring, and then add a bunch of injuries on top of that, it just isn't fair to crucify Quinn right now. It was a bad hand to start and it's gotten worse because of injuries. Not to mention, a lot of these guys aren't struggling due to lack of development.

Guys like Baker, Carmody and Alt are still very much being developed and shouldn't have to play right now, but have to anyways. Correll has to play out of position and for the most part, is just getting manhandled at guard. Madden is just not fast and athletic enough to compensate for his lack of length. Lugg just isn't the same player. The guy just can't stay healthy and it's clear as day that his ceiling has been lowered as a result of those injuries.

Now if we're in this same spot a month or so from now, then I'd start considering moving on from Quinn then.

 

[pumpdog20]

It's very much the former, and it's clear as day.

When Quinn took over, we had 2 guys committed to the 2018 class in Mabry and Dirksen. Both guys were low 3-star recruits, one of which medically retired and the other is buried on the depth chart. Neither guy had high ceilings, but that was what comprised our current senior class.

Can't develop what isn't there. There's no getting around it, that's a putrid class. It's a bad class for lower Power 5 schools, much less Notre Dame.

There's really no question here. Hiestand screwed us royally and we're paying the price right now, because on a line that needed some cohesion and leadership, it's sorely lacking, because the seniors are providing next to nothing outside of Patterson, the guy Quinn had to nab in the final seconds.

That's not to say I'm ruling out a lack of development overall, but with how many issues the OL had to overcome with having to replace 4 starters and another guy coming back from injury and missing spring, and then add a bunch of injuries on top of that, it just isn't fair to crucify Quinn right now. It was a bad hand to start and it's gotten worse because of injuries. Not to mention, a lot of these guys aren't struggling due to lack of development.

Guys like Baker, Carmody and Alt are still very much being developed and shouldn't have to play right now, but have to anyways. Correll has to play out of position and for the most part, is just getting manhandled at guard. Madden is just not fast and athletic enough to compensate for his lack of length. Lugg just isn't the same player. The guy just can't stay healthy and it's clear as day that his ceiling has been lowered as a result of those injuries.

Now if we're in this same spot a month or so from now, then I'd start considering moving on from Quinn then.

Every team we have played has had a better OLine then us. And by ND terms, their recruiting classes would be considered misses. Yet they are getting better development than ND guys are. Madden was a freaking AA last year. Even is he's vastly overrated, he shouldn't be one of the worst in the country.

Bottom line the only way to "fix" this year's line is to play Pyne and TB12.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Every team we have played has had a better OLine then us. And by ND terms, their recruiting classes would be considered misses. Yet they are getting better development than ND guys are. Madden was a freaking AA last year. Even is he's vastly overrated, he shouldn't be one of the worst in the country.

Bottom line the only way to "fix" this year's line is to play Pyne and TB12.

Cohesion and experience matter a lot more on the OL.

Pretty much every team we've played returned a lot more on their OL than us, and that's huge. It wasn't just the talent, but the fact that the senior class has 1 contributor, not just a starter, a contributor, and it was a guy who, if Hiestand didn't leave, we wouldn't have gotten.

ND was already going to be starting out from behind the 8-ball in terms of developing chemistry up front, and the injuries haven't helped matters.

For one, Madden was vastly overrated. ISD was pretty much in this corner all season that Madden could be a solid stopgap player, but he was absolutely not going to provide AA level production at ND. That being said, I don't see how his poor play is indicative of lack of development. He's only been at ND for a few months. All his development was done at Marshall. He's simply a guy with a very low ceiling, who maxed out against C-USA competition and is now out of his element.

The line needs to make some tough choices, and likely sooner rather than later, especially if Carmody is healthy this week. I'd say it's possible we get Kristofic or Carmody in the starting lineup, maybe even both. Because a right side of Madden and Lugg is no bueno. That can't continue moving forward.

I'm looking at guys like Baker, Carmody, Alt and Kristofic in terms of gauging Quinn's coaching abilities. Lugg is not going to magically develop lighter feet or regain the 20 or so pounds he lost to compensate for his back problems. Madden isn't going to magically become more athletic. Correll isn't going to magically gain 20 pounds. It is what it is with those guys. If the above 4 haven't gotten better (and considerably) by season's end, then it's probably time to let Quinn go.

 

[Irish#1]

I'm just going to say this, if anyone thinks that the line was going to show considerable improvement while playing the best front seven we'll play this year, I don't know what to tell you other than you're crazy.

I've got nothing against Coan and I certainly don't think our line's play has been good, but Coan does not help us. He does not throw the ball away to prevent sacks. He crumples when there is face pressure. And he doesn't have any escapability...at least far less than I had hoped.

I don't want to be someone who is quick to move on from someone, but even in limited reps, Drew showed he would at least step into pressure and make throws, not crumple up. His sack that lead to the fumble was at least 100% just us getting beat like a drum up front and not him not knowing what to do in the face of pressure.

it was reported that on the sack of Pyne, Baker thought he was getting help so he played it differently than taking him straight up.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

it was reporttthat on the sack of Pyne Baker thought he was getting help so he played it differently than taking him straight up.

That makes sense insofar as Baker completely gave him the inside.

 

[T-Boone]

I think this is a tougher year than ever before to rebuild an oline due to covid last year.
How much time did Baker, Carmody etc actually get to practice in the last year. You might as well think of Baker and Carmody as true freshmen.