Biden Presidency

[tussin]

Rocket, can I have some of that koolaid?

How in the actual hell can this be considered anything other than a total foreign policy disaster? We left hundreds of citizens / SIVs behind, abandoned thousands and thousands of allies, and handed over billions and billions of military equipment. The military members, as always, acted with heroism -- but the entire evacuation was based on inexcusable assumptions by leadership on the timing of Taliban takeover. Once the Taliban took over, Biden then proceeded to give away all leverage by refusing to move off his arbitrary deadline. Why? Because he is too cowardly to do the right thing and send in more troops to stabilize the situation and ensure that our people got out. The result? Our own citizens are trapped in a "country" that is controlled by the Taliban, ISIS, and Al Qaeda. Will your opinion change when the beheading videos start? Because I have a terrible feeling that we will be seeing some, and soon.

The entire withdrawal was started by Trump's misguided-vision of American pseudo-isolationism and ultimately driven by Biden's selfish desire for a political win and to build his own legacy. Serious question, what did the US gain out of this? Is any place in world made safer by this withdrawal? Are there any winners other than terrorist groups?

 

[Irish#1]

So the question then becomes, is it a permanent conflict then? We already know the painful history of the country stretching back 2,000+ years and if we're going to spend $85 billion (and billions upon billions more for our own troops) to watch their army dissolve within days, what's the point? Are the Taliban and small cells of ISIS really THAT much of a problem for us in the 2020's and beyond? I'd argue, as most of the world does today, that threat does not merit us keeping a force there.

You already agree we shouldn't stay so I don't see why you're arguing? Plus, if you're sooo worried about spending money how much more should we spend and to what goal? Spending money on our allies bugs you but you're fine with literally setting money on fire in perpetuity in Afghanistan?



No one has a plan. It's been that way since Alexander the Great. It's even more reason why we should be leaving. I just don't equate the efficacy of the evacuation (which we disagree on) with the future threat from Afghanistan (which many people, not necessarily you, have been doing). Afghanistan may very well turn into a terrible place which sucks for their people (particularly the women), but that's largely been their history, and it doesn't mean they are a terror threat to us.



Per reports just now, we have all of the ~6,000 Americans out of the country plus over 100,000 other non-Americans. Two weeks ago Drayer wrote:

Sending in thousands of soldiers to secure the airport seems like a logical first step to at least minimize the casualties, but they appear logistically challenged to get the people out. They weren't prepared.

Casualties were minimized, except for an ISIS suicide bomber, and we got a crap ton of people out. A few pages back people are acting as if it was assured Americans would be left behind and it was a foregone conclusion. So, I guess I don't see how that's utter disaster given the results and how they played out.

I'm not arguing at all. You asked why I didn't push back on Drayer because he's for maintaining a small force and I simply answered your question. How is that arguing? Please show me where I stated we should continue spending money in perpetuity in Afghanistan?

How many casualties are okay? You think any of the families of the 13 fallen soldiers is okay with their sons/daughters death? Evidently we did leave some (estimated 300?) behind. Could be a number of reasons for that, but the fact is we didn't get all of the Americans and Afghan allies out by Joe's deadline.

 

[Irish#1]

Hell of a job by everyone involved then, if there was no preparation. Really heroic work to get that many people out in such a short time.

I agree, it was a hell of a job. You know why? The preparations already in place were under the misguided assumption that the Taliban weren't big or organized enough to overtake the rest of the country. Those preparations went out the window, when the Taliban pulled up to the drive thru window and placed their order. They were asked to pull ahead and wait for their order while the military had to scramble to process passports, visa's, and order more planes for evacuees. Even that wasn't going as expected as they had to bring in the airlines to assist in getting people out.

Getting that many people out in that short of time is great, but it doesn't mean the evacuation was a success.

 

[Rocket89]

I'm not arguing at all. You asked why I didn't push back on Drayer because he's for maintaining a small force and I simply answered your question. How is that arguing? Please show me where I stated we should continue spending money in perpetuity in Afghanistan?

How many casualties are okay? You think any of the families of the 13 fallen soldiers is okay with their sons/daughters death? Evidently we did leave some (estimated 300?) behind. Could be a number of reasons for that, but the fact is we didn't get all of the Americans and Afghan allies out by Joe's deadline.

*Extremely Irish#1 voice*

Show me where I said families of the fallen should be okay with their deaths?

 

[drayer54]

Getting that many people out in that short of time is great, but it doesn't mean the evacuation was a success.

It's like the Captain of the Titanic boasting of success with his lifeboat count.

 

[ab2cmiller]

It's like the Captain of the Titanic boasting of success with his lifeboat count.

This is exactly why there is little boasting from Biden. He knows that there is going to be a lot of fallout in the days and weeks ahead as human interest stories are published in the news about those that were left behind. He knows the fallout would be multiplied numerous times if he were to boast about anything.

 

[RDU Irish]

Leaving behind fifty or more service dogs crated up. Can't wait to see people get more bent out of shape over that than the rest of the fiasco.

 

[Rocket89]

It's like the Captain of the Titanic boasting of success with his lifeboat count.

Actually, in football terms this is like me saying the evacuation was more like a 9-3 or 10-2 season why you were saying it was a 0-12 season. And now everyone is pivoting to "OH, WELL I GUESS YOU'RE OKAY WITH THOSE 3 LOSSES" while ignoring the shrieks of 0-12 were way off base.

I also didn't call the evacuation a "success" which seems silly given the difficulties of pulling out and a suicide bomber killing nearly 200, but my 2 key points:

1) Massive overreaction to the withdrawal process with lies (we gave the Taliban $85 billion of equipment!) going unchecked.

2) Withdrawal process will be tiny footnote to 20-year $2 trillion war.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Biden admin to US citizens: we need gun control in America now.

Biden admin to Taliban: Have fun with our billions of dollars worth of toys.

 

[tussin]

Actually, in football terms this is like me saying the evacuation was more like a 9-3 or 10-2 season why you were saying it was a 0-12 season. And now everyone is pivoting to "OH, WELL I GUESS YOU'RE OKAY WITH THOSE 3 LOSSES" while ignoring the shrieks of 0-12 were way off base.

I also didn't call the evacuation a "success" which seems silly given the difficulties of pulling out and a suicide bomber killing nearly 200, but my 2 key points:

1) Massive overreaction to the withdrawal process with lies (we gave the Taliban $85 billion of equipment!) going unchecked.

2) Withdrawal process will be tiny footnote to 20-year $2 trillion war.

Are you saying that we didn't leave them billions in military equipment? I believe the demilitarization of equipment was specific to what was left at the airport.

 

[Rocket89]

Are you saying that we didn't leave them billions in military equipment? I believe the demilitarization of equipment was specific to what was left at the airport.

Covered in post #2200.

 

[tussin]

Covered in post #2200.

There are lies and there are bad estimates, this falls into the latter. No one knows the true number but it is likely to be in the tens of billions. Whether it's $10B or $30B or $80B, it is still an outrage that we left that much equipment to a terrorist group.

An "unchecked lie" would be if the President went on national TV and said he was going to stay until we got all of the Americans out of the country and then left anyway:

BIDEN: We're gonna do everything in our power to get all Americans out and our allies out.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Does that mean troops will stay beyond August 31st if necessary?

BIDEN: It depends on where we are and whether we can get-- ramp these numbers up to 5,000 to 7,000 a day coming out. If that's the case, we'll be-- they'll all be out.

STEPHANOPOULOS: 'Cause we've got, like, 10,000 to 15,000 Americans in the country right now, right? And are you committed to making sure that the troops stay until every American who wants to be out--

BIDEN: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: -- is out?

BIDEN: Yes.

EDIT: The WaPo fact check says that the true total is $25B, not $85B. The outrage! An unchecked lie!!!!!!

 

[Irish#1]

*Extremely Irish#1 voice*

Show me where I said families of the fallen should be okay with their deaths?

I never stated that. You've been trying to downplay this cluster f@#$ and said casualties were minimized. We lost lives and many Afghans also lost their lives unnecessarily. I just asked if you thought those families are okay with the deaths, because they were "minimized"? Hard for you to just answer a question without trying to deflect.

 

[drayer54]

EDIT: The WaPo fact check says that the true total is $25B, not $85B. The outrage! An unchecked lie!!!!!!

That's a fact check from douchebag Glenn Kessler. The guy that fact-checked Tim Scott not experiencing real racism because his family owned land. Also, he's trying to drop the value for political points, minimizing it like some on this board to try and diminish the blunder. The numbers of rifles, choppers, planes, etc. don't seem to be in question, just some liberals trying to say that next time the right tries to claim the value of a fleet of Black Hawk helicopters and C-130s, they need use the Kelly Blue Book WHOLESALE price, not retail.

 

[Irish#1]

Actually, in football terms this is like me saying the evacuation was more like a 9-3 or 10-2 season why you were saying it was a 0-12 season. And now everyone is pivoting to "OH, WELL I GUESS YOU'RE OKAY WITH THOSE 3 LOSSES" while ignoring the shrieks of 0-12 were way off base.

I also didn't call the evacuation a "success" which seems silly given the difficulties of pulling out and a suicide bomber killing nearly 200, but my 2 key points:

1) Massive overreaction to the withdrawal process with lies (we gave the Taliban $85 billion of equipment!) going unchecked.

2) Withdrawal process will be tiny footnote to 20-year $2 trillion war.

2) Once the hysteria subsides, the evacuation very likely will look like a success in historical terms. Well over 100,000 people evacuated with a little over 100 deaths total from a 20-year war. When you take into account that the vast majority of Americans wanted to get out in the first place, and even more American care less about Afghanistan, the evacuation won't really matter in the least bit. This is why there's been such a strong push here for promoting point #1 just above to scare Americans into thinking this is going to haunt us...somehow, someway in the future. The cries that this is the greatest military blunder of the century or longer, haha okay. People who think the evacuation is going to overshadow a failed 20-year war in a place that no one cares about...I guarantee right now your anger is going to turn on the media and others real quick as the weeks and months progress.

You sure were hinting that it was.

 

[Rocket89]

There are lies and there are bad estimates, this falls into the latter. No one knows the true number but it is likely to be in the tens of billions.

"No one knows the true number" as you edit in a more accurate number. Nice job!

Whether it's $10B or $30B or $80B, it is still an outrage that we left that much equipment to a terrorist group.

We didn't "leave" that equipment, yet another stretch of the truth to make it seem the U.S. left all their shit. It's the Afghanistan Army equipment. Anyone want to go send US troops in and risk lives to get it back?

An "unchecked lie" would be if the President went on national TV and said he was going to stay until we got all of the Americans out of the country and then left anyway:

That's been checked plenty on this site.

EDIT: The WaPo fact check says that the true total is $25B, not $85B. The outrage! An unchecked lie!!!!!!

Right, and if I didn't bring it up the $85 billion figure would've been repeated and repeated ad nauseum cause OMG WE'RE NOT SAFE.

 

[Rocket89]

I never stated that.

Sure you did.

You've been trying to downplay this cluster f@#$ and said casualties were minimized. We lost lives and many Afghans also lost their lives unnecessarily. I just asked if you thought those families are okay with the deaths, because they were "minimized"? Hard for you to just answer a question without trying to deflect.

Casualties were minimized. This is part of war and any casualties are sad and unfortunate. You're operating under the belief that causalities should have been zero which is incredibly naïve. "Unnecessarily" has absolute no context for this situation.

Many in this thread are pretending if we did things differently it would've led to no casualties. Some are even promoting the idea that troops stay longer, as if that's free of risk! Maybe if the Taliban with their billion-dollar army started killing many more Americans I'd agree about the unnecessary casualties and the plan to get out.

 

[Rocket89]

The numbers of rifles, choppers, planes, etc. don't seem to be in question

Give us the breakdown of equipment.

The hills you're willing to die on are hilarious.

 

[tussin]

"No one knows the true number" as you edit in a more accurate number. Nice job!

Right, and if I didn't bring it up the $85 billion figure would've been repeated and repeated ad nauseum cause OMG WE'RE NOT SAFE.

Who is to say what number is more accurate? I only included the $25B fact check to give some credibility that the value is less than $85B, but no one knows what the true inventory and value of what we left. It could very well be closer to $85B than $25B.

You are focusing on the fact that we don't have an NPV on every piece of equipment left behind as some sort of right wing lie. Whether it's $80B or $20B or some number in between, we left military equipment to terrorists that exceeds the annual defense budget of most Western democracies. Does that make you feel better?

"Yes, all of our intelligence was wrong. Yes, the entire country is now run by terrorists. Yes, we left hundreds of citizens and thousands of allies behind. Yes, I guess I'll admit that Biden lied on national TV to the American people. But ACTUALLY, the value of the equipment is more like $25B instead of $85B. See? 9-3 season!!!!"

 

[Rocket89]

Who is to say what number is more accurate?

Common sense? Or, maybe Drayer is going to regale us with info on all those $25 airplanes we gave to the Afghanistan Army?

You are focusing on the fact that we don't have an NPV on every piece of equipment left behind as some sort of right wing lie. Whether it's $80B or $20B or some number in between, we left military equipment to terrorists that exceeds the annual defense budget of most Western democracies. Does that make you feel better?

My position is crystal clear. The actual figure is quite low, the Taliban won't be able to operate most of the equipment like a Western Democracy could, and we can always go in the coming weeks and bomb installations if we are concerned about their use. We got a lot of equipment out beforehand, disabled plenty more, etc.

It's absolutely shocking that people don't understand the only way we were going to get that equipment back after the Afghanistan Army collapsed is to pour in more American troops and get bogged down in a prolonged fight. We could've been looking at 500 to 1,000 dead. Would that make you feel better?

 

[tussin]

My position is crystal clear. The actual figure is quite low, the Taliban won't be able to operate most of the equipment like a Western Democracy could, and we can always go in the coming weeks and bomb installations if we are concerned about their use. We got a lot of equipment out beforehand, disabled plenty more, etc.

It's absolutely shocking that people don't understand the only way we were going to get that equipment back after the Afghanistan Army collapsed is to pour in more American troops and get bogged down in a prolonged fight. We could've been looking at 500 to 1,000 dead. Would that make you feel better?

The point on the equipment is that it is another example of how the entire operation was a complete failure. Leaving tens of billions of dollars in military firepower to a band of terrorists is more evidence that this was a giant fuck-up. If you can't agree to that then you are delusional.

I did not prescribe a remedy for the situation. I understand that when one bad thing happens, there is a cost/benefit analysis required to decide if a potential remedy is worth it. The only stance I took is that I think they should have deployed additional troops to make sure our citizens got out. But Biden's decision not to deploy troops and disable/get back all of the equipment does not change the obvious fact that the entire operation was poorly executed from the very beginning.

9-3 season though... Maybe the Biden Administration will snag an invite to the Camping World Bowl.

 

[Irish#1]

Sure you did.



Casualties were minimized. This is part of war and any casualties are sad and unfortunate. You're operating under the belief that causalities should have been zero which is incredibly naïve. "Unnecessarily" has absolute no context for this situation.

Many in this thread are pretending if we did things differently it would've led to no casualties. Some are even promoting the idea that troops stay longer, as if that's free of risk! Maybe if the Taliban with their billion-dollar army started killing many more Americans I'd agree about the unnecessary casualties and the plan to get out.

Please show me where I said that.

You're right. I'm operating under the belief that casualties should have been zero. There hadn't been a death since February 2020. We had deaths because we announced to the world that we're pulling out and we're going scramble to do it by an unrealistic deadline.

 

[Rocket89]

The point on the equipment is that it is another example of how the entire operation was a complete failure. Leaving tens of billions of dollars in military firepower to a band of terrorists is more evidence that this was a giant fuck-up. If you can't agree to that then you are delusional.

I did not prescribe a remedy for the situation. I understand that when one bad thing happens, there is a cost/benefit analysis required to decide if a potential remedy is worth it. The only stance I took is that I think they should have deployed additional troops to make sure our citizens got out. But Biden's decision not to deploy troops and disable/get back all of the equipment does not change the obvious fact that the entire operation was poorly executed from the very beginning.

But we did keep troops to get civilians out and we did disable and remove a lot of equipment. You cited cost/benefit analysis but don't seem to be comprehending these points.

 

[Rocket89]

You're right. I'm operating under the belief that casualties should have been zero. There hadn't been a death since February 2020. We had deaths because we announced to the world that we're pulling out and we're going scramble to do it by an unrealistic deadline.

That about sums it up, I'd say. Classic American armchair foreign policy criticism. We could've taken 5 years to withdrawal and it may not have helped the Afghanistan Army not to collapse and 2 suicide bombers could've killed 500 people in that scenario. We just don't know. Either way, zero casualties for success likely isn't met by any plan.

 

[Irish#1]

That about sums it up, I'd say. Classic American armchair foreign policy criticism. We could've taken 5 years to withdrawal and it may not have helped the Afghanistan Army not to collapse and 2 suicide bombers could've killed 500 people in that scenario. We just don't know. Either way, zero casualties for success likely isn't met by any plan.

Never said or hinted 5 years to withdraw. Just 2-3 more months would have done the trick, but Joe wanted to tell everyone on 9/11 that he got us out come hell or high water.

Still waiting on you to show me where I said that.

 

[drayer54]

That about sums it up, I'd say. Classic American armchair foreign policy criticism. We could've taken 5 years to withdrawal and it may not have helped the Afghanistan Army not to collapse and 2 suicide bombers could've killed 500 people in that scenario. We just don't know. Either way, zero casualties for success likely isn't met by any plan.

Armchair foreign policy criticism?
These Democrats all found plenty to critique
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/MattWolking/status/1432759129442037775?s=20[/TWEET]

 

[Rocket89]

Never said or hinted 5 years to withdraw.

I used that as an example of a different plan, get it together man.

 

[Rocket89]

Armchair foreign policy criticism?
These Democrats all found plenty to critique

They sure did! We also know Americans love instant reactions to military conflicts and quite often the criticisms don't always hold up as the history of time progresses.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Armchair foreign policy criticism?
These Democrats all found plenty to critique
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/MattWolking/status/1432759129442037775?s=20[/TWEET]

Rocket knows they are over-dramatizing the fallout, what expertise do these people really have anyhow.

 

[Rocket89]

Rocket knows they are over-dramatizing the fallout, what expertise do these people really have anyhow.

That's right, lock it in and start printing the history books. We're done here.