Final Warning: Talking Down a Recruit on IE (i.e. Sweat, Beal, Filer)

[Jason Pham]

Okay, this is my final warning.

If all you have to say when you get onto IrishEnvy and find out a guy isn't showing as much love to Notre Dame as you'd like him to is 'I don't care much for him anyways.', do yourself, do our coaching staff, and do me a favor, log off and go outside for awhile.

You think anyways cares if you, random internet prowling recruitniks, are 'impressed' or 'care for' recruits? I don't. Guys like Beal, Sweat, Filer have scholarships from Weis and Brown. Do you think our coaching staff is just handing out these $180,000 scholarships for shits and giggles?

It's just ridiculous to find at least a quarter of the posts in these guys' profiles go from this guy looks great to ho hum the second a recruit doesn't show enough love. I saw this happen with two highly rated quarterbacks stolen out of a certain Southern Californian school's backyard. And I hope Notre Dame fans have a little more class and tact than those of USC's.

What really pisses me off about this is we have Ohio State and USC fans rolling on the floor laughing about how we are carrying ourselves. I'm getting messages, "Your IrishEnvy guys want to help recruit for us?! That's awesome!11!" And these recruits are getting messages from their friends and the coaches from other schools, "Notre Dame fans talk trash about you, come to our school." I don't think you guys realize that recruits and their parents actually read these forums and the way a school's fanbase acts can be influential to their decision making. So don't think for a second you're impressing anyone or doing anyone a favor, especially our coaching staff who is working overtime reeling in these recruits, by talking down a recruit.

Like I said, this is my final warning before I start cleaning things up around here.

 

[Ricochet]

Your right and it needed to be said. It's one thing to say that one doesn't like this kids style of play or that he's not a good fit for ND but some say when it looks like a recruit looks like he's no longer or not favoring ND and posters bash the recruits it makes us all look bad.

 

[IrishCalves]

I understand your point Pham... though the only concern I have is making this board some happy-sunshine place where we can only say good things. If we can still have a reasonable voice, yet not continue to wish ill will on guys who go elsewhere or what have you, then I think we'll be okay.

 

[Jason Pham]

I understand your point Pham... though the only concern I have is making this board some happy-sunshine place where we can only say good things. If we can still have a reasonable voice, yet not continue to wish ill will on guys who go elsewhere or what have you, then I think we'll be okay.

I agree, we don't have to be forcing the sun where it doesn't shine. Ricochet made a great point, make all the objective observations you want. It's the 'I don't care for this kid anyways,' 'I'd rather not have him,' or my personal favorite 'I'm really pissed off with this kid' comments that have recruits and their parents shaking their heads and coaches from other schools and their commits trying to help lure in these kids to their programs nodding and smiling.

I think the only thing that needs to be done to remedy this problem and still carry a reasonable conversation is to ask yourself before you decide to say something if you were a recruit or their parent would you be very understanding of it or if you were a coach or recruiter for another team could you use it against Notre Dame.

I think this would lead to conversations filled with more useful information rather than irishfanfoeva's subjective opinion of, 'Boy, this kid sucks.'

 

[notredomer23]

Im not happy when we lose a recruit, and i might say that sucks, but i dont say the kid sucks. I wish him luck as long as he isnt playing against us.

 

[marv81s]

I don't consider it bashing when a person says that they would rather have so and so, than this person.

But if that is considered bashing, than I will refrain from saying it in the future.

I will say that if a person reads something like that on here and gets pissed off, then I feel for them, because they are going to receive and hear much harsher things in life.

I do agree with you Jason. We all should refrain from personal attacks, this is a public forum. We need to show more restraint in that area. Myself included.

 

[Jason Pham]

Im not happy when we lose a recruit, and i might say that sucks, but i dont say the kid sucks. I wish him luck as long as he isnt playing against us.

I've never seen you or think of you as a person that would talk down a recruit. It absolutely does suck when we lose a kid. I would even go as far as to say I don't wish them any luck since all of my wishing is spent on Notre Dame.

But guys that we seem to be looking down at right now are guys that are still uncommitted and guys that our staff are still trying to work on and it gets me riled up seeing our members here, who are otherwise an awesome bunch, knowingly or not, hinder the efforts of our staff.

You'd think that with guys that name Notre Dame in their top 3 and are on the verge of making a decision would get a little more love from us Irish fans.

 

[Jason Pham]

I don't consider it bashing when a person says that they would rather have so and so, than this person.

But if that is considered bashing, than I will refrain from saying it in the future.

I will say that if a person reads something like that on here and gets pissed off, then I feel for them, because they are going to receive and hear much harsher things in life.

I do agree with you Jason. We all should refrain from personal attacks, this is a public forum. We need to show more restraint in that area. Myself included.

I agree with you, I wouldn't consider that bashing. I would rather have Arthur Brown than Sweat, Filer, or Beal and I think they and their parents would understand those sentiments.

And yea, they are going to hear a lot worse throughout their career, especially if they play for a high profile program like Notre Dame. My point isn't about making these recruits feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm looking out for my school, her football program, and the efforts of the coaching staff. If there is anything that I can do to help any of those, I'm gonna do it. And if I see something that hinders any of those and I can stop it, I'm gonna give it my best shot to do so.

And you've kept yourself fairly tactful around the public arena. And WSinTDJ RinTDJ.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Okay, this is my final warning.

If all you have to say when you get onto IrishEnvy and find out a guy isn't showing as much love to Notre Dame as you'd like him to is 'I don't care much for him anyways.', do yourself, do our coaching staff, and do me a favor, log off and go outside for awhile.

You think anyways cares if you, random internet prowling recruitniks, are 'impressed' or 'care for' recruits? I don't. Guys like Beal, Sweat, Filer have scholarships from Weis and Brown. Do you think our coaching staff is just handing out these $180,000 scholarships for shits and giggles?

It's just ridiculous to find at least a quarter of the posts in these guys' profiles go from this guy looks great to ho hum the second a recruit doesn't show enough love. I saw this happen with two highly rated quarterbacks stolen out of a certain Southern Californian school's backyard. And I hope Notre Dame fans have a little more class and tact than those of USC's.

What really pisses me off about this is we have Ohio State and USC fans rolling on the floor laughing about how we are carrying ourselves. I'm getting messages, "Your IrishEnvy guys want to help recruit for us?! That's awesome!11!" And these recruits are getting messages from their friends and the coaches from other schools, "Notre Dame fans talk trash about you, come to our school." I don't think you guys realize that recruits and their parents actually read these forums and the way a school's fanbase acts can be influential to their decision making. So don't think for a second you're impressing anyone or doing anyone a favor, especially our coaching staff who is working overtime reeling in these recruits, by talking down a recruit.

Like I said, this is my final warning before I start cleaning things up around here.

I think as long as the tone is respectful, we should not run a gestapo like board here. These sites should be about the fans, not the recruits. Just an opinion. Although nobody on here should deliberately sabotage a recruit, I haven't seen evidence of that thus far.
If the recruits can waver, certainly the fans are allowed to do the same......

 

[rockne19]

jason pham, I'am curious about what you about trattou,and greg little,and chris little?

 

[rockne19]

i meant what do you think about those kids and what they pulled at the last minute .esp.g.little and c.little.(sorry for the grammer on my first post.)

 

[notredomer23]

Although nobody on here should deliberately sabotage a recruit, I haven't seen evidence of that thus far.
......

That is because our great mods delete it ASAP

 

[Jason Pham]

I think as long as the tone is respectful, we should not run a gestapo like board here. These sites should be about the fans, not the recruits. Just an opinion. Although nobody on here should deliberately sabatage a recruit, I haven't seen evidence of that thus far.
If the recruits can waver, certainly the fans are allowed to do the same......

I've always found IE to be a mature place for discussion, however, I don't think that 'I don't want him anyways' or 'He's not that great' without objective reasoning is either mature or discussable. I think it's just about as useful as 'This recruit is awesome and I want him!' except the latter might not hurt us as much.

I'm not saying we should censor things around here, and I'm sorry if that's the way my original post came off if that's what earned me a comparison to the Nazis. As Notre Dame fans, it's my opinion that we have a responsibility to ourselves and the university to be a little more mature and tactful, so if we can exert a bit of self-responsibility and action we'd be much better off as far as content-filled discussion and me not getting derailed with pissed off parents and ridiculing anOSU and USC fans.

Also, while this is a site for fans, it would be naive to think that what we say here stays here. We have other venues better suited for such intentions as you are well aware, stonebreaker. In the public arena, though, I think we should carry ourselves in a way we would knowing that certain eyes and ears are present. For example, a certain 'Golf Cart Tour' article recently made infamous brought about the anger of many fans in the Notre Dame community because of what was allegedly said about Notre Dame by a certain recruit. It was thought that even if he thought this way, things like this should be kept within a certain amount of discretion as not to burn bridges with coaching staffs, fans, and potential teammates. Under the guise of this site being just about the fans, not anyone else, we shouldn't be angry at all if someone goes on record trashing Notre Dame, it's their opinion and it shouldn't have gotten to us in the first place. The truth of it is, however, that in the public forums, we give up the right to privacy and what we say is heard by anyone who wants to and it can have an effect as trivial as it may seem.

This is just a matter of a little self-discretion and responsibility.

 

[Jason Pham]

jason pham, I'am curious about what you about trattou,and greg little,and chris little?

I think Trattou's case was an unfortunate but inevitable one. He wasn't comfortable in a 3-4, he knew we were going there. He wanted to goto Florida and he finally made that decision once they starting showing him enough love. I think he made the best decision for his given situation where a change was made after he had committed.

I don't know enough about Chris Little's situation to make any remarks on it.

Greg Little's recruitment was just despicable. Now here is a situation where dirty recruiting was implemented to yank a recruit out from underneath us leaving us shorthanded. This shows a lack of integrity and character on the parts of the recruit, the reporters, and the coaching staff at NC.

Was that all sunshine? Hardly, but I think if a recruits parents were to read that post, where objective observations are present, it would be hard for them not to understand where we might be coming from. And that's really what I'm asking for here. A bit of rational thought put behind these posts that are otherwise just uninformative, unuseful, and in many cases unneeded.

Also, keep in mind these are kids that have committed to another school already. While the ones we're talking about now are still trying to make a decision. While it may be hypocritical to put more emphasis on one than the other, if we're going to place a preference on where to place more tact and care it should be for those who have not committed yet.

 

[rockne19]

jason, all of us on this board love nd football and have a great passion for it.And sometimes it spills over into not so great comments,when it has to with recruits that nd is recruiting.I don't think anybody on this board would try and sabotage nd recruiting efforts.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I've always found IE to be a mature place for discussion, however, I don't think that 'I don't want him anyways' or 'He's not that great' without objective reasoning is either mature or discussable. I think it's just about as useful as 'This recruit is awesome and I want him!' except the latter might not hurt us as much.

I'm not saying we should censor things around here, and I'm sorry if that's the way my original post came off if that's what earned me a comparison to the Nazis. As Notre Dame fans, it's my opinion that we have a responsibility to ourselves and the university to be a little more mature and tactful, so if we can exert a bit of self-responsibility and action we'd be much better off as far as content-filled discussion and me not getting derailed with pissed off parents and ridiculing anOSU and USC fans.

Also, while this is a site for fans, it would be naive to think that what we say here stays here. We have other venues better suited for such intentions as you are well aware, stonebreaker. In the public arena, though, I think we should carry ourselves in a way we would knowing that certain eyes and ears are present. For example, a certain 'Golf Cart Tour' article recently made infamous brought about the anger of many fans in the Notre Dame community because of what was allegedly said about Notre Dame by a certain recruit. It was thought that even if he thought this way, things like this should be kept within a certain amount of discretion as not to burn bridges with coaching staffs, fans, and potential teammates. Under the guise of this site being just about the fans, not anyone else, we shouldn't be angry at all if someone goes on record trashing Notre Dame, it's their opinion and it shouldn't have gotten to us in the first place. The truth of it is, however, that in the public forums, we give up the right to privacy and what we say is heard by anyone who wants to and it can have an effect as trivial as it may seem.

This is just a matter of a little self-discretion and responsibility.

I think the above statement should be the standard. I guess I kinda feel that this is a place for discussion, not just a feel good, PC palace where we are afraid of offending someone. I'm not a mod, so I don't exactly know what the rules are. It seems that by becoming overly cautious, it may stifle healthy discussion. But then again, I thought Minter was a good coach at UC (yeah, I borrowed some of that). I guess the bottom line is be careful how you talk about the players. Even though I, and I'm sure many others, had serious issues with a certain QB coach. The line seems difficult to properly delineate.

 

[scooper]

An issue on this board turned off a recruit last year. He ultimately chose ND, but it wasn't pretty.

Just keep in mind that some read here. I don't know any screen names of this year's group, but there were a couple last year that you guys knew about and a couple that you didn't.

Just be respectful and careful. We are, afterall, ND. This isn't Ohio St. We don't poop in coolers and burn cars.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

Speak for yourself.

ileof:





LOL

 

[scooper]

Speak for yourself.

ileof:





LOL

See? We knew you were a buckturd.

 

[Jason Pham]

jason, all of us on this board love nd football and have a great passion for it.And sometimes it spills over into not so great comments,when it has to with recruits that nd is recruiting.I don't think anybody on this board would try and sabotage nd recruiting efforts.

I don't think anyone would try to either. It's just we say things sometimes thinking we are in a closed environment among friends when in reality we are going to be held responsible for what we say by anyone who has internet access. I appreciate the enthusiasm, it's my opinion that it's best spent elsewhere though. Like trashing Cockwad, the Poodle, and company.

 

[Jason Pham]

See? We knew you were a buckturd.

Buckturd.... reps.

And to stoney for being a good sport.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

It's a good reminder. I just like to offer a different POV to what is being said.





THANX SCOOP AND PHAMTASTICO!

 

[Jason Pham]

It's a good reminder. I just like to offer a different POV to what is being said.





THANX SCOOP AND PHAMTASTICO!

I'm definitely not going to start censoring things just because I think it's 'not very nice.' Whenever something is said that is in serious question the mods have been fairly quick to remove and explain these posts. I just hope people around here realize what they say isn't exactly just amongst a group of friends (as opposed to maybe TDJ) and is viewable by the public eye and we should carry ourselves in a manner that shows a bit of self-restraint and awareness indicative of the great Notre Dame fans nationwide.

And phamn it, that IE nickname thread really go around, eh buckturd?

 

[rockne19]

stonebreaker that same highway sign you have is my screen saver on my computer.south bend notre dame sign

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

I'm definitely not going to start censoring things just because I think it's 'not very nice.' Whenever something is said that is in serious question the mods have been fairly quick to remove and explain these posts. I just hope people around here realize what they say isn't exactly just amongst a group of friends (as opposed to maybe TDJ) and is viewable by the public eye and we should carry ourselves in a manner that shows a bit of self-restraint and awareness indicative of the great Notre Dame fans nationwide.

And phamn it, that IE nickname thread really go around, eh buckturd?

Things do tend to stick, Oh captain of the phamafore.

 

[stonebreakerwasgod]

stonebreaker that same highway sign you have is my screen saver on my computer.south bend notre dame sign

Great minds think alike.

 

[johnnd05]

I think two things (about this, anyway):

1. Obviously people should be able to say how good they think a recruit is; if they've watched a bunch of his film or been to one of his games, we're happy to hear their input, even if it's not 100% positive (think of some of Jiggafini's comments on Kabongo in comparison to Goebel). Same goes for sensible comments on situations like the Greg Little fiasco, even when they involve saying negative things about recruits.

But ...

2. When a recruit indicates that he might go elsewhere and this is immediately followed by people coming out of the woodwork with Expert Analysis of his "film" which shows that He's Just Not That Great, it makes them, and us, look like idiots. It does seem to me that this has been happening a lot lately (though I can't remember who the culprits have been), and it has really started to bug me.

It seems to me, though, that some of the decision as to which negative comments are acceptable should be left to the readers of the board. E.g., having had this issue brought to my attention, the next time I come across someone following up the news that so-and-so is an SC lean by proclaiming that he's watched so-and-so's tape and thinks his blocking technique is sloppy or whatever, I'll publicly call that person an idiot, and so should you. But I won't do that when it seems to me that the opinion being put forward, even if negative, is grounded in some sort of genuine analysis and isn't just the sort of thing a guy says about a girl to make himself feel better after she's dumped him. But I'll be much less able to engage in this sort of idiot-calling if the posts are taken down right away, and it seems to me that having a bunch of posters call out some jerk with nothing better to do then "talk down" a highschooler reflects even better on the ND fanbase than having these sorts of incidents be glossed over altogether.

So while I agree with you, Jason, that this sort of thing is becoming a real problem and shouldn't stand unchallenged (I'm inclined to dig through some of the threads you mention to call out some choice offenders, but have they all been taken down?), I'm not sure that the best way to correct it is by deleting the offending posts.

Does that make sense?

 

[Jason Pham]

I think two things (about this, anyway):

1. Obviously people should be able to say how good they think a recruit is; if they've watched a bunch of his film or been to one of his games, we're happy to hear their input, even if it's not 100% positive (think of some of Jiggafini's comments on Kabongo in comparison to Goebel). Same goes for sensible comments on situations like the Greg Little fiasco, even when they involve saying negative things about recruits.

But ...

2. When a recruit indicates that he might go elsewhere and this is immediately followed by people coming out of the woodwork with Expert Analysis of his "film" which shows that He's Just Not That Great, it makes them, and us, look like idiots. It does seem to me that this has been happening a lot lately (though I can't remember who the culprits have been), and it has really started to bug me.

It seems to me, though, that some of the decision as to which negative comments are acceptable should be left to the readers of the board. E.g., having had this issue brought to my attention, the next time I come across someone following up the news that so-and-so is an SC lean by proclaiming that he's watched so-and-so's tape and thinks his blocking technique is sloppy or whatever, I'll publicly call that person an idiot, and so should you. But I won't do that when it seems to me that the opinion being put forward, even if negative, is grounded in some sort of genuine analysis and isn't just the sort of thing a guy says about a girl to make himself feel better after she's dumped him. But I'll be much less able to engage in this sort of idiot-calling if the posts are taken down right away, and it seems to me that having a bunch of posters call out some jerk with nothing better to do then "talk down" a highschooler reflects even better on the ND fanbase than having these sorts of incidents be glossed over altogether.

So while I agree with you, Jason, that this sort of thing is becoming a real problem and shouldn't stand unchallenged (I'm inclined to dig through some of the threads you mention to call out some choice offenders, but have they all been taken down?), I'm not sure that the best way to correct it is by deleting the offending posts.

Does that make sense?

From my experience, I've only witnessed two cases where someone spoke up when they saw what was deemed as less than necessary badmouthing. And of those two, one of those who stood up and challenged what was said has left this site. It would definitely be nice if we saw a little more responsibility around here with regards to this behavior.

As far as posts being deleted or censored, the ones that have been by the staff are so offensive that there was no question in mind what should have been done with them and I don't think we've had to do that in a while now since we have a pretty decent group of contributors settled in now and I hope it remains that way.

With that said, I totally agree with you. I don't want at all for my post to seem like I want a politically correct happy go lucky environment. What I'm aiming at here is mature tactful discussion. If we can back up our subjective opinions with objective observations, not only will that contribute to an actual discussion, it will be much more understandable by recruits and their parents and will be much harder for others to use against us.

I'm not gonna call anyone out here. As Notre Dame fans, I trust that we will remedy this without having to retrospectively point fingers. But if you do run into these types of posts in the future, I will be more than happy to rep your efforts to call them out as I also trust that as Jon da Mon, you will have something rather witty to say.

 

[grantphilly]

I wish you would go ahead and start cleanig it up now just to be on the safe side

 

[johnnd05]

From my experience, I've only witnessed two cases where someone spoke up when they saw what was deemed as less than necessary badmouthing. And of those two, one of those who stood up and challenged what was said has left this site. It would definitely be nice if we saw a little more responsibility around here with regards to this behavior.

As far as posts being deleted or censored, the ones that have been by the staff are so offensive that there was no question in mind what should have been done with them and I don't think we've had to do that in a while now since we have a pretty decent group of contributors settled in now and I hope it remains that way.

With that said, I totally agree with you. I don't want at all for my post to seem like I want a politically correct happy go lucky environment. What I'm aiming at here is mature tactful discussion. If we can back up our subjective opinions with objective observations, not only will that contribute to an actual discussion, it will be much more understandable by recruits and their parents and will be much harder for others to use against us.

I'm not gonna call anyone out here. As Notre Dame fans, I trust that we will remedy this without having to retrospectively point fingers. But if you do run into these types of posts in the future, I will be more than happy to rep your efforts to call them out as I also trust that as Jon da Mon, you will have something rather witty to say.

Got it, got it, got it. The policy you describe sounds like a good one; I sorta figured that I'd read too much of that idiocy for it ALL to have been deleted. Maybe next time I'm bored I'll start digging through the threads, finding stupid remarks, and letting the negative reps fly! In any case I won't hold my tongue next time it happens.