Brian Kelly Revisited (RIP BOZO)

[kmoose]

Before this season, our punt return scheme was to leave the punt returner on an island and hope he fair catches successfully.

But you see, GK, THIS is the problem with most of the arguments around the coaching. I can guarantee you that the scheme was NOT "to leave the punt returner on an island and hope he fair catches successfully". Hyperbole is often appropriate for getting a point across, but when hyperbole becomes the standard group-think, then the whole thing falls apart. And that's when people tend to take issue with it.

 

[Irish Insanity]

You have said this before, and it makes me wonder if you watch any college football outside of Notre Dame?(that's not a criticism) Because this is what teams are doing now. Oregon, Ohio State, Florida State, Oklahoma, USC, Baylor; even teams like Nebraska and Penn State are all doing this now... The spread offense is here to stay in college football. You can either live with it, stop watching, or just be bitter all of the time. The choice is yours.

It works almost never. And yes I watch more than just our team. Hell I watched my Lions pull the same shit and fail on Sunday. I would understand if it works.

 

[gkIrish]

But you see, GK, THIS is the problem with most of the arguments around the coaching. I can guarantee you that the scheme was NOT "to leave the punt returner on an island and hope he fair catches successfully". Hyperbole is often appropriate for getting a point across, but when hyperbole becomes the standard group-think, then the whole thing falls apart. And that's when people tend to take issue with it.

It's actually not really a hyperbole at. I bet if you look at tape of every punt return since 2010 you would see our punt returner by himself on the vast majority of punts. Didn't we have a net of 10 punt return yards one season? What else can be inferred from that statistic?

What do you think the scheme was prior to this year? By scheme I just mean "the plan."

 

[Cackalacky]

He's learning on the job here and making the adjustments. I think he will get it done, but that is just my opinion. ND is just a different animal. Everybody gives us their best shot, and we have to be on our game all the time, which is nearly impossible.

I also agree with the remarkable improvement in the punt game! Every time I see CJ in space I am amped! That has been difficult to watch over the first 5 years, but now is something I am looking forward to.

Scoring Tds from inside the 20 is learning on the job? STs is another of the critiques. They have been pathetic with no real improvement.

39th in punt returns so far this year.
59th in kick off returns
62nd in opponent punt returns
89th in opponent kick off returns

82nd in red zone conversions. 25% of the scores have been field goals and we score 80% of the trips. Not good enough. I get the need for optimism but there are some criticisms that are valid.

 

[kmoose]

It works almost never.

ND is well within the top half of the nation (44th) in 3rd down conversion percentage, so it appears to work a little more than that.

 

[Cackalacky]

Well, let's just shit can him then. He's not the guy. I am wrong. Can't convert a 3rd and short. We suck. Maybe Charlie wants to give it another try.

This is the kind of hyperbole that has been discussed previously. Chill and take a breath. Or don't post in this thread if you can't handle it.

 

[yankeeND]

It's actually not really a hyperbole at. I bet if you look at tape of every punt return since 2010 you would see our punt returner by himself on the vast majority of punts. Didn't we have a net of 10 punt return yards one season? What else can be inferred from that statistic?

What do you think the scheme was prior to this year? By scheme I just mean "the plan."

I can't argue the punt return game at a all. It has been atrocious up to this year. I agree that there are things that can be better, and I am not trying to be an ass either, it's just hard for me to sit here and nit pick and not take into consideration the entire body of work. We are beating teams that used to embarrass us not too long ago, and that is only the first step. Kelly is close, but we need a few breaks to go our way for a change. These injuries have been the thing I have questioned more than anything else.

 

[kmoose]

It's actually not really a hyperbole at. I bet if you look at tape of every punt return since 2010 you would see our punt returner by himself on the vast majority of punts. Didn't we have a net of 10 punt return yards one season? What else can be inferred from that statistic?

What do you think the scheme was prior to this year? By scheme I just mean "the plan."

That the players didn't execute the scheme properly?

It's the same hyperbole as "Joe Schmidt can't tackle". Joe Schmidt is the 3rd leading tackler on the team. So if he can't tackle, what does that say about the 8 starters that lag him?

 

[yankeeND]

This is the kind of hyperbole that has been discussed previously. Chill and take a breath. Or don't post in this thread if you can't handle it.

I know that seems like a harsh response from me, but that is the vibe I am getting from some of you. He's not perfect, but damn.

 

[Irish Insanity]

ND is well within the top half of the nation (44th) in 3rd down conversion percentage, so it appears to work a little more than that.

44th in 3rd down percentage is mediocre at best. Especially a team aspiring to be in the playoffs. And we weren't talking about 3rd down percentage, the initial comment referee specifically to 3rd down 3 or less. And specifically to a spread formation.

 

[Cackalacky]

But you see, GK, THIS is the problem with most of the arguments around the coaching. I can guarantee you that the scheme was NOT "to leave the punt returner on an island and hope he fair catches successfully". Hyperbole is often appropriate for getting a point across, but when hyperbole becomes the standard group-think, then the whole thing falls apart. And that's when people tend to take issue with it.

I posted in the game day threads quite regularly that the punt safe is almost always on and during the USC game I even saw five guys walking toward the sideline after not engaging their opponent while the ball was still in the air. Not sure what is up with that except they were not expected to be down field blocking during the return. This happens regularly and I feel it is because of the coverage called by the coaches, unless our ST guys just DGAF.

 

[irishff1014]

He's learning on the job here and making the adjustments. I think he will get it done, but that is just my opinion. ND is just a different animal. Everybody gives us their best shot, and we have to be on our game all the time, which is nearly impossible.

I also agree with the remarkable improvement in the punt game! Every time I see CJ in space I am amped! That has been difficult to watch over the first 5 years, but now is something I am looking forward to.

If your aren't given your best shot to every team you play why play?

this is the biggest BS excuse there is.

 

[kmoose]

44th in 3rd down percentage is mediocre at best. Especially a team aspiring to be in the playoffs. And we weren't talking about 3rd down percentage, the initial comment referee specifically to 3rd down 3 or less. And specifically to a spread formation.

But "mediocre" is a damn sight better than you are accusing it of being.


Then show me what our percentage is with those qualifiers? I looked, and I can't find it. That's not to say it is not out there, just that I couldn't find it with a cursory search. If you can't show me data, then I will simply come back with, "It works!!" and neither one of us will be right or wrong. But if our 3rd and short is woefully inadequate, then that means that our 3rd and medium and 3rd and long are wildly successful, in order to bring the overall 3rd down percentage up to average levels. So Kelly is a fvcking genius.........

 

[gkIrish]

That the players didn't execute the scheme properly?

It's the same hyperbole as "Joe Schmidt can't tackle". Joe Schmidt is the 3rd leading tackler on the team. So if he can't tackle, what does that say about the 8 starters that lag him?

Come on man. If the entire punt return team isn't executing the scheme properly whose fault is that? What's more likely, that 10 players are all doing the wrong thing or 10 players are doing what they are told and what they are told is to run a punt safe? Like I said, it's a lot better this year but let's not pretend like it wasn't a complete failure years 1-4.

Everyone knows total tackles is a misleading stat. A MLB has a lot more opportunities to tackle than say a defensive end or cornerback. I shouldn't have to even explain that to you.

Can you honestly sit there and tell me you think Joe is the 3rd best tackler on the starting defense? He is probably 9th or 10th at best. He literally had more missed tackles than made tackles over the course of two games earlier this year.

 

[yankeeND]

If your aren't given your best shot to every team you play why play?

this is the biggest BS excuse there is.

I'm not making excuses, nor am I saying that the team isn't giving their best shot. I am saying that it is not easy to get up for every game. You will have that across the country, but not everybody you play is Notre Dame. That means something to everybody on our schedule. Consider Memphis beating Ole Miss Saturday. It should never happen, but any given Saturday things like this can and do.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I can find the percentage either. But I can fuckin guarantee that we would be much more successful putting a back in the backfield and running it more often. Prosise is averaging 7.1 yds per carry. Adams 7.8. Kizer 3.2. And Williams 5.1.

Mediocre is our 3rd down percentage. Again my initial comments are about 3rd and 3 or less with a spread field. The mediocre comment referred to your stat of 3rd down as a whole.

 

[yankeeND]

Scoring Tds from inside the 20 is learning on the job? STs is another of the critiques. They have been pathetic with no real improvement.

39th in punt returns so far this year.
59th in kick off returns
62nd in opponent punt returns
89th in opponent kick off returns

82nd in red zone conversions. 25% of the scores have been field goals and we score 80% of the trips. Not good enough. I get the need for optimism but there are some criticisms that are valid.

That's not what I meant by that. I was referring to just being the head coach at Notre Dame. I should have been more clear with that, so that's my fault.

Still good assessment on the red zone break down. I feel like we haven't been good in there since I was 8 though, so I guess I'm immune to our ineptness down there.

 

[kmoose]

He literally had more missed tackles than made tackles over the course of two games earlier this year.

Where did you see this? I've never seen an official stat for "missed tackles", so I'm not sure how anyone could prove this.

 

[NDohio]

Come on man. If the entire punt return team isn't executing the scheme properly whose fault is that? What's more likely, that 10 players are all doing the wrong thing or 10 players are doing what they are told and what they are told is to run a punt safe? Like I said, it's a lot better this year but let's not pretend like it wasn't a complete failure years 1-4.

Everyone knows total tackles is a misleading stat. A MLB has a lot more opportunities to tackle than say a defensive end or cornerback. I shouldn't have to even explain that to you.

Can you honestly sit there and tell me you think Joe is the 3rd best tackler on the starting defense? He is probably 9th or 10th at best. He literally had more missed tackles than made tackles over the course of two games earlier this year.

Man, our punt returns have been my number one frustration with BK. It never looked like we were even trying in years past. I am thinking this is the first year our depth has been enough that BK feels comfortable enough having actual returns in the gameplan. There is a lot of talented personnel on the punt returns this year.

 

[gkIrish]

Where did you see this? I've never seen an official stat for "missed tackles", so I'm not sure how anyone could prove this.

I honestly don't remember where the stat came from but you could probably find it in his thread. I think he missed more tackles than made tackles in the Clemson and Navy games combined IIRC.

 

[ACamp1900]

Where did you see this? I've never seen an official stat for "missed tackles", so I'm not sure how anyone could prove this.

It was in the USC thread prior to the game... I saw it as well...

 

[kmoose]

25% of the scores have been field goals and we score 80% of the trips. Not good enough. I get the need for optimism but there are some criticisms that are valid.

ND has 23 RZ scores; 6 of them are FGs, for 26%.


Alabama has 26 RZ scores; 7 of them FGs. 27%
Ohio State has 24 RZ scores; 7 of them FGs. 29%
Utah has 23 RZ scores; 8 of them FGs. 35%
LSU has 24 RZ scores; 6 of them FGs. 25%
Clemson has 15 RZ scores; 4 of them FGs. 27%

It's good enough for half of the Top 10, but it's not good enough for us?

 

[kmoose]

It was in the USC thread prior to the game... I saw it as well...

The USC thread is not an official stat....

 

[gkIrish]

ND has 23 RZ scores; 6 of them are FGs, for 26%.


Alabama has 26 RZ scores; 7 of them FGs. 27%
Ohio State has 24 RZ scores; 7 of them FGs. 29%
Utah has 23 RZ scores; 8 of them FGs. 35%
LSU has 24 RZ scores; 6 of them FGs. 25%
Clemson has 15 RZ scores; 4 of them FGs. 27%

It's good enough for half of the Top 10, but it's not good enough for us?

Every single team on that list has a much better defense than us. We rely on our offense to win games so any shortcomings by the offense are magnified.

 

[ACamp1900]

Clemson's defense isn't much better, if at all imo...

anyway, to all the pissing back and forth in this thread lately, I think this thread was a great place to point out any oddities or consistent screw ups by the staff but it seems it devolved into "BK should be fired/He's the greatest thing ever and should be above any criticism" debate... if we can bring all that back to a healthy medium this thread could be home to some great dialogue/discussion imo.

 

[NDRock]

Where did you see this? I've never seen an official stat for "missed tackles", so I'm not sure how anyone could prove this.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Over the past two weeks, Notre Dame LB Joe Schmidt has 9 tackles and 11 missed tackles</p>— CFB Film Room (@CFBFilmRoom) <a href="https://twitter.com/CFBFilmRoom/status/654353573971558400">October 14, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Not sure how accurate the guys who tweeted this are but I believe this is where the stat came from.

 

[kmoose]

I honestly don't remember where the stat came from but you could probably find it in his thread. I think he missed more tackles than made tackles in the Clemson and Navy games combined IIRC.

I can tell you where the stat came from; someone made it up based on their arbitrary definition of what constitutes a missed tackle. According to my arbitrary definition, Joe Schmidt has not missed a single tackle all season long. So you're not correct about him missing more tackles than he made.

 

[gkIrish]

I can tell you where the stat came from; someone made it up based on their arbitrary definition of what constitutes a missed tackle. According to my arbitrary definition, Joe Schmidt has not missed a single tackle all season long. So you're not correct about him missing more tackles than he made.

What's the point you're trying to make? That Joe Schmidt has played good football?

You know a missed tackle when you see it. And I've seen a ton of them from Joe.

 

[ACamp1900]

The USC thread is not an official stat....

What does this mean... are you saying any stat posted in a thread on IE isn't official??

 

[yankeeND]

I know that I am quick to support all things ND, and maybe sometimes to a fault. But without it, we wouldn't have these riveting debates to banter back and forth with.

I will digress and say that yes, Kelly has some things to work on, and yes, I would expect him to be better in certain areas by now. For the sake of the initial argument, 10 wins should be the floor every year at ND. I will never say I expect anything less than that. The reality is, for the past 25 years or so, that has been the exception and not the norm. The reason why I defend Kelly is because of how shitty everyone else has done since Holtz. I think Buster's post summed up the reality of it all, and the job that he has done is somewhere in between. The optimism and support however, stems from the potential that I see out there on the field, and the stability within the program.