QU for the Lawyers - Employee Contract

[goldandblue]

How am I stretching it? You literally stayed on so you could get them to pay for your education, with no intent to actually stay. They certainly didn't pay for it without regard to whether you were employed, otherwise they would just offer it to the general public.

So lying isn't unethical?

So.... What if management created these policies the way they did on purpose? Maybe they feel that the ultimate goal is to better the lives of the individuals that work for their company regardless of their future plans?

Maybe Verizon sees a bigger picture? I am confident that if Verizon felt like they were getting taken advantage of, they would change their policy.

You have never lied? You have never taken advantage of a given situation for the betterment of yourself? Move over Mother Teresa woolybug is in da house....

To Add:

Employees do their best work when they feel valued. Our benefits go beyond the basics. They’re designed to support you in remarkably helpful ways — in your career and in areas of your life outside of Verizon.

This is the very first paragraph on their benefits page.

 

[IrishLion]

My place of employment offers to pay for up to 6 credit hours of tuition per semester for us. They know that most of us that sought jobs here are going to use that opportunity for free education and then bounce as soon as we can apply that newly acquired education.

It's a trade-off that the administration is open about; they get dedicated workers for 2-4 years at least (sometimes more; many people love what they do and stick around), and those workers get a free education (on top of salary).

The people make the company run, and in turn the company helps the people further their education and move to different career opportunities later on.

There are no rules on reimbursing them for the credit hours, nor for staying for a certain amount of time. They expect people to use the educational perks; they know that's why many people apply here in the first place, and they use that to attract motivated individuals that will do the job for a few years at least.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Sorry if I chuckle at you claiming to have integrity while admitting that you purposely screwed your company out of tuition reimbursement. lol

Come on man, it's not like Verizon would ever act against their best interest when dealing with their employees because it's the right thing to do. We're talking about a company that lays off thousands of workers at a time. Employees owe them nothing but what's in their contract.

 

[wizards8507]

Come on man, it's not like Verizon would ever act against their best interest when dealing with their employees because it's the right thing to do. We're talking about a company that lays off thousands of workers at a time. Employees owe them nothing but what's in their contract.

Wooly isn't saying "what Koon did is illegal." He's saying "what Koon did was a dick move."

 

[IrishinSyria]

Wooly isn't saying "what Koon did is illegal." He's saying "what Koon did was a dick move."

And I'm saying that's freaking stupid. Verizon doesn't give a shit about the long-term best interests of its employees, so there's no reason the employees should act out of some moral obligation to Verizon. Verizon is a massive employer that has sophisticated law firms tweaking every detail of their stock employment contracts. Koon is a cog in their machine with no leverage and no comparable legal machine behind him. It is beyond absurd to suggest that Koon is in some way morally deficient for trying to take advantage of an employee benefit. I don't know about the back tax thing, and the only responsible advice on that is for Koon to get help from a tax profession, but certainly Koon shouldn't be giving Verizon a dime that he doesn't have to give.

 

[woolybug25]

And I'm saying that's freaking stupid. Verizon doesn't give a shit about the long-term best interests of its employees, so there's no reason the employees should act out of some moral obligation to Verizon. Verizon is a massive employer that has sophisticated law firms tweaking every detail of their stock employment contracts. Koon is a cog in their machine with no leverage and no comparable legal machine behind him. It is beyond absurd to suggest that Koon is in some way morally deficient for trying to take advantage of an employee benefit. I don't know about the back tax thing, and the only responsible advice on that is for Koon to get help from a tax profession, but certainly Koon shouldn't be giving Verizon a dime that he doesn't have to give.

So because you feel that someone else "doesn't give a shit" about you, that it somehow gives you an ethical pass to rip them off?

That's what's wrong with today's workforce. No sense of responsibility or loyalty. Do you really blame companies for "not giving a shit" when people seem to think that they have zero ethical responsibility in regards to their employment?

 

[koonja]

And I'm saying that's freaking stupid. Verizon doesn't give a shit about the long-term best interests of its employees, so there's no reason the employees should act out of some moral obligation to Verizon. Verizon is a massive employer that has sophisticated law firms tweaking every detail of their stock employment contracts. Koon is a cog in their machine with no leverage and no comparable legal machine behind him. It is beyond absurd to suggest that Koon is in some way morally deficient for trying to take advantage of an employee benefit. I don't know about the back tax thing, and the only responsible advice on that is for Koon to get help from a tax profession, but certainly Koon shouldn't be giving Verizon a dime that he doesn't have to give.

I loved my working team, but Verizon can be ruthless (not saying they're immoral for doing so, just the way it is). One morning, people with zero heads up got pulled into 1 hour long meetings with our manager and AD's, and were told they were let go then and there and they had until noon to pack up and leave. The guy who was cut on our team was about 33 and was technically the most gifted person on the team, but wasn't much of a team player. Actually, I don't want to say that, but he was just rough around the edges. 8% of our department got shipped out that day.

This had nothing to do with me leaving after finishing school - this was about 4 months prior to that.

 

[koonja]

So because you feel that someone else "doesn't give a shit" about you, that it somehow gives you an ethical pass to rip them off?

That's what's wrong with today's workforce. No sense of responsibility or loyalty. Do you really blame companies for "not giving a shit" when people seem to think that they have zero ethical responsibility in regards to their employment?

Have you ever worked for a large company? I've worked for two fortune 15 companies. Literally nothing to do with my tiny impact or pay scale could "rip them off". Especially actions completely within the rule book that THEY write and can change at ANY TIME.

You're being a drama mama right now. Nothing unethical was done. I'm just here taking personal grenades again for no reason. Weird.

 

[woolybug25]

I loved my working team, but Verizon can be ruthless (not saying they're immoral for doing so, just the way it is). One morning, people with zero heads up got pulled into 1 hour long meetings with our manager and AD's, and were told they were let go then and there and they had until noon to pack up and leave. The guy who was cut on our team was about 33 and was technically the most gifted person on the team, but wasn't much of a team player. Actually, I don't want to say that, but he was just rough around the edges. 8% of our department got shipped out that day.

This had nothing to do with me leaving after finishing school - this was about 4 months prior to that.

Well shit, Koon... that should have given you a license to steal the petty cash drawer.

They owe you that much...

 

[wizards8507]

Well shit, Koon... that should have given you a license to steal the petty cash drawer.

They owe you that much...

They'd never know, either! Such a behemoth company, they can totally afford it.

Disclosure: I don't think what Koon did was especially egregious, but the "they're a big company, they can afford it" argument is shit.

 

[koonja]

They'd never know, either! Such a behemoth company, they can totally afford it.

Disclosure: I don't think what Koon did was especially egregious, but the "they're a big company, they can afford it" argument is shit.

How about: "they're a big company, they can afford it, and the choose to (since they write and control the rules on tuition reimbursement)". How does that sit with you?

 

[woolybug25]

Have you ever worked for a large company? I've worked for two fortune 15 companies. Literally nothing to do with my tiny impact or pay scale could "rip them off". Especially actions completely within the rule book.

I work for a huge bank.


You keep (I believe intentionally) missing the point. It doesn't matter if it "impacts" them or they "care" about your actions. An unethical action is unethical regardless of the outcome. You want to give yourself a pass simply because it was a big, faceless organization. That doesn't change your actions, only your perception of them.

 

[IrishLion]

So because you feel that someone else "doesn't give a shit" about you, that it somehow gives you an ethical pass to rip them off?

That's what's wrong with today's workforce. No sense of responsibility or loyalty. Do you really blame companies for "not giving a shit" when people seem to think that they have zero ethical responsibility in regards to their employment?

Why is it unethical to stick around and use the benefits as long as he's working hard and still doing the job?

 

[woolybug25]

How about: "they're a big company, they can afford it, and the choose to (since they write and control the rules on tuition reimbursement)". How does that sit with you?

If you forget your wallet at a restaurant with a couple dollars in it... does it make it ethically okay for the waitress to take the money before returning it to you?

 

[koonja]

Why is it unethical to stick around and use the benefits as long as he's working hard and still doing the job?

It's not. Wooly's just on a moral power trip (hopefully not posting while on the job).

 

[IrishinSyria]

So because you feel that someone else "doesn't give a shit" about you, that it somehow gives you an ethical pass to rip them off?

That's what's wrong with today's workforce. No sense of responsibility or loyalty. Do you really blame companies for "not giving a shit" when people seem to think that they have zero ethical responsibility in regards to their employment?

It's not ripping them off. It's taking advantage of a contractual benefit. If Verizon wanted to use education to retain people, it would simply write that into the contract. It's not an accident that they don't do that, and it's not ripping them off to take advantage of a benefit they offer.

Google Verizon lay offs. The company has no problem cutting thousands of jobs every year as it seeks to maximize shareholder profits. Nothing they do is for the long-term best interest of their employees. It is absurd to suggest that employees should act otherwise. Yes, a verizon employee owes them an honest days work. Yes, they should not lie or seek to cheat the company. But they absolutely should not forego an opportunity for professional development out of some misplaced sense of loyalty to Verizon, INC. To do so would be to fundamentally misunderstand the relationship between employee and employer in modern America.

To be honest, I didn't expect you of all people to be championing corporate America against the little guy.

 

[woolybug25]

It's not. Wooly's just on a moral power trip (hopefully not posting while on the job).

Ha... again... posturing. So far your excuses for your repeated unethical behavior have been:

- They can afford it
- They didn't protect themselves for it
- They didn't make it clear enough
- They still like you, so it's ok

Did I miss anything?

 

[IrishinSyria]

If you forget your wallet at a restaurant with a couple dollars in it... does it make it ethically okay for the waitress to take the money before returning it to you?

You can't be serious. It's not an accident. The contract is deliberately written that way by a team of lawyers and MBAs.

What you're really arguing is that if Wal-Mart is selling a bike for 10% off it's unethical to pay anything less than full price.

 

[IrishLion]

Ha... again... posturing. So far your excuses for your repeated unethical behavior have been:

- They can afford it
- They didn't protect themselves for it
- They didn't make it clear enough
- They still like you, so it's ok

Did I miss anything?

I mean, if it's a benefit of employment, and he's still employed and doing the job, how could it be considered unethical that he's using that benefit? Even if he's planning to leave, he's still offering the trade that allows him to cash in on that opportunity, right?

I plan on leaving my job in the next few years. Should I stop accepting all benefits?

 

[woolybug25]

You can't be serious. It's not an accident. The contract is deliberately written that way by a team of lawyers and MBAs.

What you're really arguing is that if Wal-Mart is selling a bike for 10% off it's unethical to pay anything less than full price.

That isn't even remotely accurate analogy.

It's more like having the check out girl ring up your bike wrong and just taking it instead of telling her.

 

[IrishinSyria]

I served in the Military for 40 months. I qualified for 100% GI Bill benefits at 36 months. Should I turn down the GI bill because I didn't make it to retirement (20 years)?

 

[Irish#1]

My thought is get rid of the tuition reimbursement and lower everyone's cell bills! Problem solved and a win win for everyone.

Also, I nominate for thread of the year.

 

[koonja]

I mean, if it's a benefit of employment, and he's still employed and doing the job, how could it be considered unethical that he's using that benefit? Even if he's planning to leave, he's still offering the trade that allows him to cash in on that opportunity, right?

I plan on leaving my job in the next few years. Should I stop accepting all benefits?

Yes, you should cancel your healthcare.

What's funny about this is that if anything, I stepped my game up for those final 2 months at work because I wanted to leave a positive opinion of myself with my team, which they 100% had. I've been tweeted at twice today by my former manager. If you follow me on twitter, it's the Verizon ping pong championship, and the DJ Dimepiece joke.

 

[woolybug25]

I served in the Military for 40 months. I qualified for 100% GI Bill benefits at 36 months. Should I turn down the GI bill because I didn't make it to retirement (20 years)?

If you are going to make analogies, make them at least a little relevant. These aren't even remotely close to what we are talking about.

If you keep at this, i'm just going to simply quit responding to you.

 

[IrishinSyria]

That isn't even remotely accurate analogy.

It's more like having the check out girl ring up your bike wrong and just taking it instead of telling her.

Maybe I would buy your point if we were talking about some mom and pop shop and a hand-shake deal, but we're talking about an international company that employs over 200,000 people. Koon did not discover some hidden loophole in the contract, he simply took advantage of a benefit they knowingly offered. There is no way that Verizon didn't envision exactly this scenario when they wrote the contract the way they did.

 

[koonja]

If you are going to make analogies, make them at least a little relevant. These aren't even remotely close to what we are talking about.

If you keep at this, i'm just going to simply quit responding to you.

His analogy is actually legit compared to your stolen wallet one, lol.

 

[Circa]

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[Corry]

It's a win win for both the company and the employee to offer a tuition reimbursement program.

Program Requirements
Businesses must pass four tests that the IRS uses to determine tax break eligibility for tuition reimbursement. The first test requires that "the program benefits employees who qualify under rules set up by you that do not favor highly compensated employees." Companies with a collective-bargaining agreement for some employees must be careful that these workers are not excluded unless it was part of its bargaining. The second test must ensure that shareholders and owners do not derive more than 5 percent of its benefits for the year. The third test forbids employees from having the option to "...choose to receive cash or other benefits that must be included in gross income instead of educational assistance." The fourth test requires that eligible employees receive reasonable notice of the program.

Related Reading: Tax Breaks for Employers Who Hire Felons

Assistance Limits
Employees can be reimbursed for up to $5,250 in educational assistance per year. That amount is not added to the employees wages and is deducted by small business owners on IRS Schedule C. For the small business owner desiring to improve herself academically, she can deduct educational expenses as long as they are related to the current business, trade or occupation. Provided that this training enables her to maintain or improve her current skills, then those costs can be deducted.

Tax Breaks for Employers on Tuition Reimbursement | Chron.com

 

[Wild Bill]

If you are going to make analogies, make them at least a little relevant. These aren't even remotely close to what we are talking about.

If you keep at this, i'm just going to simply quit responding to you.

Let's say for instance, in order to receive my yearly bonus, I must be employed on Dec 1st of each year. In October of this year, I know with certainty I'm going to quit. Instead of quitting right away, I wait until Dec 2nd so I get the bonus. That situation seems similar to Koons. Given those circumstances, what do you feel I (or Koon) did wrong. Seems to me the bonus and the tuition reimbursement were earned according to the standards set forth by the employer.

 

[woolybug25]

Maybe I would buy your point if we were talking about some mom and pop shop and a hand-shake deal, but we're talking about an international company that employs over 200,000 people. Koon did not discover some hidden loophole in the contract, he simply took advantage of a benefit they knowingly offered. There is no way that Verizon didn't envision exactly this scenario when they wrote the contract the way they did.

So just because they are a big company, that means the behavior is okay? Wrong is wrong, regardless of who the impacted party is going to be.

I simply don't get why people think bad behavior is acceptable as long as you are doing it to a big company. It's silly.

His analogy is actually legit compared to your stolen wallet one, lol.

Of course you feel that way.

But you didn't protect yourself from getting your money and you can afford it!