5 Dead in TN military shootings

[woolybug25]

Whether you find his ideas objectionable or not, could we avoid the ad hominem stuff?

Its not an ad hominem as he wasnt making an argument just typing hus verbal diarrhea. His posts are are beligerent, inflammatory, with little aim to have a reasonable duscussion. I have no problem calling a spade a spade. Most of his posts are disruptive and bring little to the discussions. Especially with ones above, considering that we have active/ retired military posters.

Its actually a pattern in several threads if you have been paying attention.

I'm with Cack. It's one thing to address character because of someone's singular post or argument, but that's not what Cack did. NDgradstudent's entire persona is inflammatory and he's a bad representative of our site. If someone like Cack (a mod) never addresses it, his narrative will only get more upsetting. He needs to learn how to play nice in the sandbox or gtfo.

 

[MNIrishman]

Its not an ad hominem as he wasnt making an argument just typing out his verbal diarrhea. His posts are are beligerent, inflammatory, with little aim to have a reasonable duscussion. I have no problem calling a spade a spade. Most of his posts are disruptive and bring little to the discussions. Especially with ones above, considering that we have active/ retired military posters.

Its actually a pattern in several threads if you have been paying attention.

I mean, it seemed to follow a logical flow to me:

1) Southern redneck supports Stars and Bars, commits terrorist act.
2) Stars and Bars get taken down and shamed across the country.
3) Muslim commits similar terrorist act, but with a different victim set.
4) NDGS asks, does this now lead to a similar shift in "appropriateness" of Islamic flag?
5) Jayhawk points out that statehouses ("the gumment") doesn't fly the Islamic flag, so the question is irrelevant.
6) NDGS says that the attitude shift toward the Stars and Bars is more wide-ranging than just government buildings. Says similar politics were discussed in other thread (which admittedly I did not follow).
7) NDGS group slammed.

That logical flow up through step 6 doesn't seem so bad to me. Was the main error introducing the politics before expressing sympathy? Because that does seem crass, but the reaction would indicate that there's more to it. Perhaps you're right about his post history of which I am ignorant.

Of course, if I wanted to bring up politics, I'd like to wonder why our guys in uniform weren't packing on duty? They're trained, they're responsible, they ought to have a gun when working. That might have saved some lives, and it's an important question.

 

[Cackalacky]

I mean, it seemed to follow a logical flow to me:

1) Southern redneck supports Stars and Bars, commits terrorist act.
2) Stars and Bars get taken down and shamed across the country.
3) Muslim commits similar terrorist act, but with a different victim set.
4) NDGS asks, does this now lead to a similar shift in "appropriateness" of Islamic flag?
5) Jayhawk points out that statehouses ("the gumment") doesn't fly the Islamic flag, so the question is irrelevant.
6) NDGS says that the attitude shift toward the Stars and Bars is more wide-ranging than just government buildings. Says similar politics were discussed in other thread (which admittedly I did not follow).
7) NDGS group slammed.

That logical flow up through step 6 doesn't seem so bad to me. Was the main error introducing the politics before expressing sympathy? Because that does seem crass, but the reaction would indicate that there's more to it. Perhaps you're right about his post history of which I am ignorant.

Of course, if I wanted to bring up politics, I'd like to wonder why our guys in uniform weren't packing on duty? They're trained, they're responsible, they ought to have a gun when working. That might have saved some lives, and it's an important question.

1. There are no ISIS/Muslim flags over state houses. Never have been. False dichotomy. Inflammatory response. It was also determined to be a hate crime not a terrorist attack. He knows this and posted it anyway. We went through this in the Charleston thread.
2. The Confederate flag hasn't been taken down from any state houses yet. The fact business are pulling it from the show is a free expression of capitalism no matter what the market forces are. Again a false dichotomy. He also stated that it was IrishJayhawks "cause" which is also erroneous. Its no one's cause here. Inflammatory.
3. Plenty of murders happen for many reasons. The devil is in the details which NDgS is epically incapable of grasping. Nuance is not his forte. You might not want to defend him on that point. Yes irrelevant from the star and inflammatory. See my. no. 1.
4. I honestly don't know where you see this at at all. Quite the sugar coated assessment. I have read this thread three times and I don't see show this is in here.
5. See my No. 2. That is an ad hominem against IrishJayhawk. Up till this I found no redeeming arguments, points or logic at all.
6. The group slam is because he has done this before in other threads. It will continue to happen the more it goes on. He doesn't argue in good faith nor is he interested in opposing POVs.

Sensitive topics need to be argued in good faith. It needs to respectful. Disagreements are obviously fine and needed but not at the cost of upsetting posters or inhibiting discussion. If any one needs to discuss this further I will be happy to discuss it in PM.

 

[ARALOU]

Angry, sympathetic young adults do not necessarily have to be connected to the Islam radicals. The radicals will most likely claim to be responsible even if they are not. The threat is real either way and I believe that secured military personnel should be able to arm themselves on post or at their military jobs, at all time. It may not have stopped the attack but maybe it could have had a different outcome if the marines were armed.

Prayers for the lost soldiers and their families.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Disagree that military should be armed at all times. By all means, proper security measures should be taken, but these targeted shootings are rare and statistically insignificant events (there are millions of servicemen, more have been killed in accidents over the past 5 years than by domestic terrorists). Our military is not our police, and keeping them unarmed while in the US is an important way of showing that.

 

[ARALOU]

I respectfully disagree. I never said anything about policing. You wear the uniform, you are a target. I have a vested interest on this subject.

 

[pkt77242]

Angry, sympathetic young adults do not necessarily have to be connected to the Islam radicals. The radicals will most likely claim to be responsible even if they are not. The threat is real either way and I believe that secured military personnel should be able to arm themselves on post or at their military jobs, at all time. It may not have stopped the attack but maybe it could have had a different outcome if the marines were armed.

Prayers for the lost soldiers and their families.

I can't remember for sure but I thought that the guards at the gates were armed? If they were, why didn't they stop it? Why was it so easy for him to ram the gates? He was driving a Mustang not a Hummer. There is a lot of things that need to be looked at after this incident and I am not sure that military personnel carrying is the answer.

 

[ARALOU]

I don't know all the details. The first attack was at a recruiting office. The shootout may have occurred at the gate area of the training facility. Surely they were on high alert shorly after the first attack. Maybe the time factor was too small.

 

[ARALOU]

Unarmed military...just sounds wrong to me. Especially in today's world. I am not saying arm every enlisted soldier but there should be some criteria to meet to be able to go armed. At least have one or two guys around military recruiting offices that are armed.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Unarmed military...just sounds wrong to me. Especially in today's world. I am not saying arm every enlisted soldier but there should be some criteria to meet to be able to go armed. At least have one or two guys around military recruiting offices that are armed.

What about today's world makes you want to arm the military? Violent crime is at its lowest rate in several decades.

 

[ARALOU]

Crime? I am not talking about crime or crack houses or even armed citizens. I am talking about military personnel being targeted. Call me old fashioned. We are the country we are, with the freedom we have, because we fought for it. Let one of your loved ones or you be shot in a recruiting office then quote some statistics. I had much rather know some trained, country loving, God fearing jarhead be armed than an Islam extremist in my country.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Crime? I am not talking about crime or crack houses or even armed citizens. I am talking about military personnel being targeted. Call me old fashioned. We are the country we are, with the freedom we have, because we fought for it. Let one of your loved ones or you be shot in a recruiting office then quote some statistics. I had much rather know some trained, country loving, God fearing jarhead be armed than an Islam extremist in my country.

Wasn't attacking you. Asking for clarification.

 

[ARALOU]

My apologies. It is a tense subject in my family, presently. We have immediate and extended family serving and feel strongly on this issue. It is hard to discern someone's tone from text. I can debate the subject intelligently. I truly respect your feelings and concerns on this subject.

 

[Woneone]

What about today's world makes you want to arm the military? Violent crime is at its lowest rate in several decades.

After years of declining crime, a spike in US city violence - ABC2News.com

Several big U.S. cities see homicide rates surge

As AraLou said (or maybe I'm paraphrasing), it's a bit of a different time now. I'll be interested to see how this year shakes out in regards to the statistics. Overall, violent crime may be down across the country, but spikes in major cities, as well as tragedies such as in Tennessee may not make a dent "overall", but make it difficult to look at the numbers and think things are ok.

Especially today, I just don't see an issue with armed Military personnel, especially hearing about how many foiled plots there have been by jihadists to inflict harm on others across the globe. Better safe than sorry, especially if the trade-off isn't much (and I guess I just don't see what the drawback would be).

 

[IrishinSyria]

Crime? I am not talking about crime or crack houses or even armed citizens. I am talking about military personnel being targeted. Call me old fashioned. We are the country we are, with the freedom we have, because we fought for it. Let one of your loved ones or you be shot in a recruiting office then quote some statistics. I had much rather know some trained, country loving, God fearing jarhead be armed than an Islam extremist in my country.

I was in the active Army and am still in the reserves. I understand why the gut reaction to these stories is to arm our Soldiers in the US. Many people are surprised to learn that we don't carry everywhere we go.

All I can say is that, from my experience, there are very very good reasons why we do not. There are very good reasons why you don't hear any senior military leadership calling for that now. I can see arguments for making some changes- giving recruiters some basic MP training and letting them carry seems like a decent enough idea- but overall, these are exceedingly rare incidents and are best handled by trained military and civilian law enforcement.

 

[MNIrishman]

I was in the active Army and am still in the reserves. I understand why the gut reaction to these stories is to arm our Soldiers in the US. Many people are surprised to learn that we don't carry everywhere we go.

All I can say is that, from my experience, there are very very good reasons why we do not. There are very good reasons why you don't hear any senior military leadership calling for that now. I can see arguments for making some changes- giving recruiters some basic MP training and letting them carry seems like a decent enough idea- but overall, these are exceedingly rare incidents and are best handled by trained military and civilian law enforcement.

Want them to use kung fu?

 

[IrishinSyria]

As for downside, this article is a start:

There have been days when there are more military family members killed by their veteran on the home front than troops killed in action on the war front. . .

. . . Combat veterans are responsible for almost 21 percent of domestic violence nationwide, linked to the development of post traumatic stress disorder. . .

Research has found that veterans diagnosed with PTSD were "significantly more likely to perpetrate violence toward their partners," with over 80 percent committing at least one act of violence in the previous year, and almost half at least one severe act, including strangulation, stabbing and shooting. This is more than 14 times higher than the general civilian population.

Honestly, I think the article overstates the importance of PTSD (not to minimize it). The fact is that the military needs and gets violent people. When deployed against an enemy force, we're the greatest fighting force in the history of the world. But at home, we struggle. Talk to any NCO and they'll have legions of stories about junior Soldiers getting out of hand. I saw drug problems, theft of sensitive military equipment, stabbings (service member on service member), and domestic violence ("soldier shot and killed his 19-year-old wife last week because he was angry that another man had bought liquor for her") while I was in. This happened. To be honest, the idea of a bunch of Joes carrying day in and day out scares me more than a couple of lone-wolf wannabe jihadis does.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Want them to use kung fu?

Read that as "military law enforcement and civilian law enforcement" if the contextual clues don't help.

 

[MNIrishman]

Read that as "military law enforcement and civilian law enforcement" if the contextual clues don't help.

 

[Redbar]

At the risk of sounding ol' fartish, I worry for future generations. Prayers to the families. Last I heard, there were three soldiers fighting for their lives, any word on their conditions?

 

[ARALOU]

IrishinSyria, I fully understand what you mean about arming all military. That is not what I am saying. Trust me, my oldest son spends as much time at the hospital for PTSS or some other mental deficiency, to check guys out of the military, as he does training them for combat. I compare it to Federal Marshalls on planes. You know who you can arm. ARM THEM! You get DHD, you never should have a firearm.. We know how that will work out.
My comment on how the world is changing is in reference to attacks on the US and its soldiers and population, nothing else.

 

[IrishinTN]

At the risk of sounding ol' fartish, I worry for future generations. Prayers to the families. Last I heard, there were three soldiers fighting for their lives, any word on their conditions?

One sailor fighting for his life shot under his arm, in liver and colon. He is in trauma icu. Policeman shot in ankle. Should fully recover.

 

[Redbar]

One sailor fighting for his life shot under his arm, in liver and colon. He is in trauma icu. Policeman shot in ankle. Should fully recover.

Thanks. I read a female soldier was also wounded.

 

[IrishinTN]

The sailor has now succumbed to his wounds becoming the 5th death. Prayers to his family and for our country.

 

[Grahambo]

At the risk of sounding ol' fartish, I worry for future generations. Prayers to the families. Last I heard, there were three soldiers fighting for their lives, any word on their conditions?

The enemies we face right now can be beaten, in fact, its more of a matter of when, not if.

 

[Woneone]

As for downside, this article is a start:



Honestly, I think the article overstates the importance of PTSD (not to minimize it). The fact is that the military needs and gets violent people. When deployed against an enemy force, we're the greatest fighting force in the history of the world. But at home, we struggle. Talk to any NCO and they'll have legions of stories about junior Soldiers getting out of hand. I saw drug problems, theft of sensitive military equipment, stabbings (service member on service member), and domestic violence ("soldier shot and killed his 19-year-old wife last week because he was angry that another man had bought liquor for her") while I was in. This happened. To be honest, the idea of a bunch of Joes carrying day in and day out scares me more than a couple of lone-wolf wannabe jihadis does.

That's a great point that I hadn't considered. When one thinks of our soldiers, at least myself, it's through rose-colored glasses. You don't consider the mental stability of boys coming home.

 

[phgreek]

The enemies we face right now can be beaten, in fact, its more of a matter of when, not if.

...agree. We need far more aggressive Cyber resources. This is war...Air, Land, Sea, and Cyber need to be treated as equal dimensions. Can we avoid all instances like this last tragedy...I'm not sure, but we can do better...no question in my mind.

 

[kmoose]

I'm with Cack. It's one thing to address character because of someone's singular post or argument, but that's not what Cack did. NDgradstudent's entire persona is inflammatory and he's a bad representative of our site. If someone like Cack (a mod) never addresses it, his narrative will only get more upsetting. He needs to learn how to play nice in the sandbox or gtfo.

A mod should not have to lower the discussion to name-calling, in order to address the behavior, though. If a mod is able to do it, then what is to stop everyone else from doing it when they think that it has gone far enough? I think that is what the original complaint was?

 

[Redbar]

I think everyone is being a little hard on NDgradstudent. He is just a guy who has come up short in life; he can't catch a break or get ahead, despite the fact that he is in most ways superior to others. He would probably be "Harvardgradstudent" if this country hadn't made things so easy for minorities and women and placed so many obstacles before him. I get his anger, and one day when this country starts treating everyone equally under the law, and we stop placing our collective thumbs on the scale, the natural order will be restored and the statistics show all this to be true.

On a serious note, I've got no issue with Cack's warning, but maybe a mod should do, what a mod did to the last polarizing troll that inflamed every thread the moment they stepped on the scene. I'm borrowing this phrase, but "I would take a hundred Kuenja's... "

 

[Cackalacky]

A mod should not have to lower the discussion to name-calling, in order to address the behavior, though. If a mod is able to do it, then what is to stop everyone else from doing it when they think that it has gone far enough? I think that is what the original complaint was?

My intent was to describe his posting behavior as deplorable which I believe I provided a description of said behavior and which if I had enough time a strong case could be made by pulling and compiling posts. That would be unproductive. Enough with this.... everybody back off NDgradstudent and move along and lets get back on track.