Duggar Family

Rhode Irish

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We are all born into sin. There is no scale in the sight of God that deems one worse than another. We are separated from Him through sin and the only way to be forgiven is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ok, but here on earth actually "sinning" makes you much worse than thinking about it. Let God impart his judgment as he sees fit when the time comes. Among mere mortals, if you diddle kids you are a bad person and they should bury you under the jail as far as I'm concerned.
 

Irish#1

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Who can say. Logically I'm not sure I would pursue a show if there's some back history that could potentially threaten to take it off the air as we've seen scandals kill some other shows in the past, but maybe they did know about it and decided to bet against the public finding out about the transgressions.

I'm under the impression that the shows that aren't on CBS, NBC or ABC don't get as thorough of a discovery process as they should.

It wasn't until a viewer notified the Dual Survivor show that they found out one of the guys on the show had lied about his military background and experience.

From a personal experience......Around 2005 one of my sons was working for a guy between spring and fall semesters at Purdue. The DIY network had hired the guy to do a show centered around restoring homes and buildings that were historic. Several weeks go by and the guy keeps making excuses for not paying my son. I went with my son to talk to the guy, who refused to even acknowledge that I was even standing in front of him. At that time I knew the guy was crooked. A little background check on the web showed the guy had hundreds of complaints for ripping people off and he had a misdemeanor record for fraud.

I wrote the DIY Network and asked if they really knew who this guy was. I'm glad to say they yanked the guy and his show never got on the air.
 

L-cart ND-ana

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I agree with the last part, but I'm not sure how it helps your "teens are different" argument? If it's truly a genetic predisposition, then it isn't something that can be rehabilitated nor differentiated between adults and teens.

I have no idea what the first point is though. Cases with kids are different and more complicated because they are "complicated and different"? So pretty much just it is because it is?

Studies have shown that a person's genetic makeup can make the more prone to aggressive behavior, anti-social behaviors, and other behaviors that can be and have been rehabilitated. Not to make this a gay rights debate but since the gay movement here in America and the big arguement for gay rights has been this gay gene or gay predisposition pedaphiles are wanting people to look at thier rights because there are studies that suggest pedaphiles are victims of thier own genetic makeup.... just like criminals.... just like homosexuals.

My other point about kids and adults being different I did not think I would really have to elaborate too much as I did not want to insult anyones intelligence. If you read my second point I touched on it a little:

"A juvenile shoplifter, muderer, sex offender will not get into as much trouble as an adult shoplifter, murderer, sex offender because with age should come knowledge, maturity, restraint, coping skills, and on and on and on and on the list goes. Things get more complicated when the juvenile has parents or is surrounded by people that just trigger or reinforce certain behaviors. Kids, to some extent, cannot control much of thier world, some more than others."
 

pkt77242

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Studies have shown that a person's genetic makeup can make the more prone to aggressive behavior, anti-social behaviors, and other behaviors that can be and have been rehabilitated. Not to make this a gay rights debate but since the gay movement here in America and the big arguement for gay rights has been this gay gene or gay predisposition pedaphiles are wanting people to look at thier rights because there are studies that suggest pedaphiles are victims of thier own genetic makeup.... just like criminals.... just like homosexuals.

My other point about kids and adults being different I did not think I would really have to elaborate too much as I did not want to insult anyones intelligence. If you read my second point I touched on it a little:

"A juvenile shoplifter, muderer, sex offender will not get into as much trouble as an adult shoplifter, murderer, sex offender because with age should come knowledge, maturity, restraint, coping skills, and on and on and on and on the list goes. Things get more complicated when the juvenile has parents or is surrounded by people that just trigger or reinforce certain behaviors. Kids, to some extent, cannot control much of thier world, some more than others."

Um, you do realize how insulting it is to compare gay people to pedophiles and criminals, right? Also you are misunderstanding a key portion of the gay rights debate, that they are consenting adults, where no one is being harmed, so the government has no basis to discriminate against them. The funny thing is that being heterosexual is just as genetic as being homosexual but I don't see you making that comparison..
 

L-cart ND-ana

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Um, you do realize how insulting it is to compare gay people to pedophiles and criminals, right? Also you are misunderstanding a key portion of the gay rights debate, that they are consenting adults, where no one is being harmed, so the government has no basis to discriminate against them. The funny thing is that being heterosexual is just as genetic as being homosexual but I don't see you making that comparison..

Facts are facts buddy no matter how insulting, people are way too sensitive. I am not arguiing gay rights I am just using it as an example to better understand why kids might act out sexually. I am just saying what studies suggest and I am not even saying I agree or disagree with those studies. Relax, take a breathe!!!
 

Bishop2b5

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Not to get this thread any further off track than it is, but there's no gay gene. Decades of research hasn't found any compelling or even credible evidence for one nor any evidence that it's caused by damaged or faulty genes. The occurrence of homosexuality in families and populations doesn't match any pattern of occurrence you'd expect to find in a heritable trait.

That doesn't mean they aren't born that way though. The most widely accepted explanation now (and one backed up by a large body of statistical and experimental data) is that it occurs because of exposure or lack of exposure to certain hormones (especially testosterone), or faulty receptors for those hormones during critical points in fetal development.
 

Bishop2b5

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As for those people who engage in wanton violence, pedophilia, or sociopathic criminal behavior, it appears to usually require two things: an underlying psychological instability AND a trigger (usually sexual abuse or extreme neglect and/or physical abuse) at a relatively young age. Basically, they are already what we might think of as odd, pathologically insecure, or just missing something, and then they get pushed over the edge by being molested, abused, or being exposed to/witnessing some sort of extremely violent or aberrant sexual behavior. The lack of either a predisposition or a trigger is why some people we'd think of as odd and not quite normal never commit any of these acts or why some people, even though they were abused, never do so either. You need fuel AND a match to start the fire.
 

L-cart ND-ana

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As for those people who engage in wanton violence, pedophilia, or sociopathic criminal behavior, it appears to usually require two things: an underlying psychological instability AND a trigger (usually sexual abuse or extreme neglect and/or physical abuse) at a relatively young age. Basically, they are already what we might think of as odd, pathologically insecure, or just missing something, and then they get pushed over the edge by being molested, abused, or being exposed to/witnessing some sort of extremely violent or aberrant sexual behavior. The lack of either a predisposition or a trigger is why some people we'd think of as odd and not quite normal never commit any of these acts or why some people, even though they were abused, never do so either. You need fuel AND a match to start the fire.

Exactly!
 

L-cart ND-ana

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You are all over the place.

Eh? That is basically what I have been saying. An underlying psychological issue can be caused by a host of things, genetics being one. And I said from the beginning that something could trigger that person like alcohol or drugs could trigger an alcoholic or addict.
 

woolybug25

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Eh? That is basically what I have been saying. An underlying psychological issue can be caused by a host of things, genetics being one. And I said from the beginning that something could trigger that person like alcohol or drugs could trigger an alcoholic or addict.

Your original argument was that teens are different because... Well, "because it's complicated". Then gave reasoning because of genetic makeup. Then just agreed with someone that disagreed with it being a "gene" and not agreeing with your original argument that there is a fundamental difference between how or why a teen assaults a child vs an adult doing so.

That's what I mean by "you're all over the place". I'm not sure that you have a definitive argument or any facts to back up that point... Whatever it may or may not be...
 

L-cart ND-ana

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Your original argument was that teens are different because... Well, "because it's complicated". Then gave reasoning because of genetic makeup. Then just agreed with someone that disagreed with it being a "gene" and not agreeing with your original argument that there is a fundamental difference between how or why a teen assaults a child vs an adult doing so.

That's what I mean by "you're all over the place". I'm not sure that you have a definitive argument or any facts to back up that point... Whatever it may or may not be...

You stopped reading. After I said it was complicated because it is more complicated I said on the same post:
"A juvenile shoplifter, muderer, sex offender will not get into as much trouble as an adult shoplifter, murderer, sex offender because with age should come knowledge, maturity, restraint, coping skills, and on and on and on and on the list goes. Things get more complicated when the juvenile has parents or is surrounded by people that just trigger or reinforce certain behaviors. Kids, to some extent, cannot control much of thier world, some more than others.

I agreed that the underlying psychological issue needs to be triggered by something which I had posted already. Psychological issues or mental illnesses can be GENETIC, it can run in ones family. Bishop2b5 sort of contradicted himself by saying its not genetic but then stated it needs to two things to happen... undelying pshychological issues (which can be inhererited) and a trigger which I had pretty much explained (maybe not as clear) in an earlier post.

"Also you could take this another route use the gay gene arguement (this will light a fire under some people). Maybe they were just born that way. Studies have said people can be born naturally more agressive which might lead to a violent future. Studies have said people are born with addictive personalities (drugs, alcohol, SEX, etc.). So using the gay gene arguement maybe we can conclude that some kids, even adults, are just born that way. Maybe the abuse triggers something like cocaine or alcohol does to addicts/alcoholics and they just crave sexually acting out".
 
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L-cart ND-ana

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Your original argument was that teens are different because... Well, "because it's complicated". Then gave reasoning because of genetic makeup. Then just agreed with someone that disagreed with it being a "gene" and not agreeing with your original argument that there is a fundamental difference between how or why a teen assaults a child vs an adult doing so.

That's what I mean by "you're all over the place". I'm not sure that you have a definitive argument or any facts to back up that point... Whatever it may or may not be...

Maybe...... there is no DEFINATIVE reason or arguement to be made because there could be, and probably is, a wide variety of reasons. If there was only one reason for everything things would be a lot easier to fix...... which brings us back to "ITS COMPLICATED because ITS COMPLICATED" ;)
 

Bishop2b5

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Bishop2b5 sort of contradicted himself by saying its not genetic but then stated it needs to two things to happen...

Just to be a bit clearer: I said homosexuality isn't genetic. In a separate post on a different issue, I said most molesters or people who engaged in other abusive or pathologically violent/aberrant behavior were usually the result of both an underlying psychological issue (which can be genetically based, but isn't always so) and a trigger (being abused, molested, or being exposed to such). Two separate issues and two separate posts.
 

L-cart ND-ana

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Just to be a bit clearer: I said homosexuality isn't genetic. In a separate post on a different issue, I said most molesters or people who engaged in other abusive or pathologically violent/aberrant behavior were usually the result of both an underlying psychological issue (which can be genetically based, but isn't always so) and a trigger (being abused, molested, or being exposed to such). Two separate issues and two separate posts.

Ok, I got it. But you could argue and have a valid arguement that a lack of any hormone could be genetic.
 

pkt77242

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That you could argue and have a valid arguement that a lack of any hormone could be genetic.......

I should have been more clear. What is the point that you are trying to make in reference to Josh Duggar (the reason for this thread)? Are you trying to say that it might not be all his fault as he was born that way? That because he might have been born that way, we should view his crime differently? Or something else completely?
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Just to be a bit clearer: I said homosexuality isn't genetic. In a separate post on a different issue, I said most molesters or people who engaged in other abusive or pathologically violent/aberrant behavior were usually the result of both an underlying psychological issue (which can be genetically based, but isn't always so) and a trigger (being abused, molested, or being exposed to such). Two separate issues and two separate posts.

In my experience there is a zero chance homosexuality does not have a genetic component and other traits like molestation, severe sadism, etc., do. That is just not how nature works.
 

Bishop2b5

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I'm not advocating or criticizing this approach... just wanted to toss the idea out and get some thoughts. Where does forgiveness come into play here or is it even possible? No doubt, molesting a child is a heinous crime and that it was done to your sisters makes it even worse. Probably one of the hardest things to ever forgive. The fact that Josh was young and possibly the victim of some sort of molestation himself doesn't absolve him of any guilt, but does add a layer of complexity to the matter. Is there room for complete forgiveness or is this an unforgiveable thing?
 

L-cart ND-ana

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I'm not advocating or criticizing this approach... just wanted to toss the idea out and get some thoughts. Where does forgiveness come into play here or is it even possible? No doubt, molesting a child is a heinous crime and that it was done to your sisters makes it even worse. Probably one of the hardest things to ever forgive. The fact that Josh was young and possibly the victim of some sort of molestation himself doesn't absolve him of any guilt, but does add a layer of complexity to the matter. Is there room for complete forgiveness or is this an unforgiveable thing?

Sounds like the victims have forgiven him. It also sounds like he has grown out of his issues (Can never be certain). So yes, I assume so. That would be up to the victims not me though or are you asking about forgiveness in regard to public opinion?
 

dublinirish

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Sounds like the victims have forgiven him. It also sounds like he has grown out of his issues (Can never be certain). So yes, I assume so. That would be up to the victims not me though or are you asking about forgiveness in regard to public opinion?

Sorry but this is bullshit.
 

dublinirish

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I forgive you. I guess I should have said the two older sisters are in his corner and the 2 other sisters and babysitter have not been identified so I cannot speak for them.

you can't expect the victims to honestly come out and speak their true feelings on the matter with the peer/family pressure that would be on them. that's the worst thing about the whole thing to me, the Duggars are choosing to protect their son (who is guilty) over their daughters (who are innocent). But what can you expect when, in their world view a woman's purpose to to provide offspring, stay at home and only ever achieve a basic level of education.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I'm not advocating or criticizing this approach... just wanted to toss the idea out and get some thoughts. Where does forgiveness come into play here or is it even possible? No doubt, molesting a child is a heinous crime and that it was done to your sisters makes it even worse. Probably one of the hardest things to ever forgive. The fact that Josh was young and possibly the victim of some sort of molestation himself doesn't absolve him of any guilt, but does add a layer of complexity to the matter. Is there room for complete forgiveness or is this an unforgiveable thing?

Forgiveness, or forgetfulness?

These people played every half-truth, half-baked, cop-out and emotional ploy they could imagine, just to protect themselves from paying their own debt in the matter.

In it they perpetuated false stereotypes, and provided plenty of propaganda [to save their own bacon*] that will do nothing but hinder the public from addressing a crisis mental health issue in our society. With a third of our girl children and a quarter of our boy children being victimized currently, most of whom told that they, their feelings, and their well-being isn't important, what hope is there for all of us? Forget about honesty, integrity, duty, and any moral imperatives; a basic, functioning society at a legal and operational level is threatened by this widespread of a social illness.

This thing isn't "unforgivable," or "forgivable." That is about the victim, entirely within their purview, and is ours only in a general legal sense; we are charged only with how it affects the health of our society. What I cannot get over is the number of well-intentioned, good-hearted people that will play into the hands of truly self-absorbed evil individuals like this. It happens every time; the playbook.

  • Fall contritely on Christian Dogma;
  • Admit to the sin and beg "forgiveness;"
  • Cover up the extent of the wrongdoing;
  • Lie about the whole issue by providing misinformation;
  • Wait an appropriate time;
  • Continue on agenda, being more careful not to be caught.

* how is that for a "folksy" metaphor to take the edge off of the real horror of the situation?
 
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AdmiralBackhand

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Forgiveness, or forgetfulness?

These people played every half-truth, half-baked, cop-out and emotional ploy they could imagine, just to protect themselves from paying their own debt in the matter.

In it they perpetuated false stereotypes, and provided plenty of propaganda [to save their own bacon*] that will do nothing but hinder the public from addressing a crisis mental health issue in our society. With a third of our girl children and a quarter of our boy children being victimized currently, most of whom told that they, their feelings, and their well-being isn't important, what hope is there for all of us? Forget about honesty, integrity, duty, and any moral imperatives; a basic, functioning society at a legal and operational level is threatened by this widespread of a social illness.

This thing isn't "unforgivable," or "forgivable." That is about the victim, entirely within their purview, and is ours only in a general legal sense; we are charged only with how it affects the health of our society. What I cannot get over is the number of well-intentioned, good-hearted people that will play into the hands of truly self-absorbed evil individuals like this. It happens every time; the playbook.

  • Fall contritely on Christian Dogma;
  • Admit to the sin and beg "forgiveness;"
  • Cover up the extent of the wrongdoing;
  • Lie about the whole issue by providing misinformation;
  • Wait an appropriate time;
  • Continue on agenda, being more careful not to be caught.

* how is that for a "folksy" metaphor to take the edge off of the real horror of the situation?

If evil exists, which it does, then there is good. There is a light that can cast away darkness. Jesus is that light and the world needs Him. I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, can transform sinners. How many of us have done detestable things as teenagers and well into adulthood? Should we be stigmatized our whole lives for our sin? Maybe, but Jesus died so that we can be free.

Did Josh Duggar ask forgiveness to his sisters? That is what is being said, and it is also said that the girls forgave him. Should there be consequences to his crime? I absolutely think so, but it seems like he went through that, and now his sin is coming to light and the whole world knows about it. I cannot imagine what was covered up by the family as I haven't been paying too close attention to reports, but who would broadcast these matters freely for everyone to hear or know about? Their kids were young and they wanted to protect them from public scrutiny, in regards to the aforementioned.

Inexcusable doesn't equate to unforgivable. We all need forgiveness, which is a real thing, a spiritual matter. It doesn't say that what he did was okay, but it means that you can cast your hurts on the Lord and leave the consequences up to Him.
 
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