2016 Presidential Horse Race

[Black Irish]

Yea... I fear what it will take to accomplish a clean government...because the type of people we are dealing with here are soulless and entitled, on both sides of the deal.

It really is no longer an issue of a couple bad apples...but rather what do you do when the orchard is bad?

I don't think one POTUS can address this...but I agree it'd be nice for someone to start shining a light on that shit and the POTUS has visibility and press to make some hay...In the end, it will take an angry, outraged, united people standing behind such a POTUS.

It helps if the people can really decide what they want out of government. People bitch all day about politicians being cozy with big business, but that whining stops if it means your congressman helped to get a new production plant or office HQ built in his district because he's buddy-buddy with the CEO. I agree politicians are too cozy with business execs, union heads, and lobbyists, but I can also accept that scaling back that ties will result in tangible losses. Many people are unwilling to make that trade-off or are simply blind to the fact that such a trade-off is inevitable.

 

[GoIrish41]

It helps if the people can really decide what they want out of government. People bitch all day about politicians being cozy with big business, but that whining stops if it means your congressman helped to get a new production plant or office HQ built in his district because he's buddy-buddy with the CEO. I agree politicians are too cozy with business execs, union heads, and lobbyists, but I can also accept that scaling back that ties will result in tangible losses. Many people are unwilling to make that trade-off or are simply blind to the fact that such a trade-off is inevitable.

I don't know. CEOs are always looking for a leg up. If the government does not offer that they will exploit some other advantage. Companies will continue to build production plants if they need them to expand their businesses. That is the nature of capitalism. I want the government to make it less profitable to build plants in Asia than in Ohio. I think that making the relationship less cozy is just as likely to result in gains than losses.

 

[wizards8507]

I want the government to make it less profitable to build plants in Asia than in Ohio.

So we agree. The minimum wage is destroying American jobs.

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[Armyirish47]

So we agree. The minimum wage is destroying American jobs.

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Destroying jobs that pay less than $17,000 per year?

 

[GoIrish41]

So we agree. The minimum wage is destroying American jobs.

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Do we agree that we should let corporations continue to stockpile cash while American workers don't make enough to survive? I do not think so. Perhaps we agree that free trade agreements that result in jobs being shipped to nations who allow workers to work 16 hours a day for 40 cents an hour should be avoided. We also might agree that corporations should not be involved in the writing of laws that ensure an uneven playing field. Your theory that the minimum wage is destroying American jobs is not supported by evidence. In fact, even corporations like Walmart and McDonald's have begun to raise the minimum wage at their stores because, I guess, sleeping at night or looking at themselves in the mirror turned out to be important to them.

 

[Bluto]

So we agree. The minimum wage is destroying American jobs.

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Nope. It's the inability of these countries (usually due to corruption and or complete control of a small group of oligarchs) to enforce and or develop their own environmental and or labor laws (Mexico is a perfect example). Often times US Foreign policy serves to reinforce this inability. Unfortunately it seems that many elites in the U.S. want to model that type of society.

 

[wizards8507]

Do we agree that we should let corporations continue to stockpile cash while American workers don't make enough to survive?

If you can't find and hold a job making a living wage, you're just plain lazy. Yes, layoffs and prolonged job searches happen, but those are temporary. I've worked with high school dropouts who managed to earn $40,000 salaries as McDonalds restaurant managers. My dad makes over $70,000 in a manufacturing job with zero special skills or education required. The people that fail at his company fail because they show up to work high/drunk or don't show up to work at all. In these "dire economic times," they can't find good workers to fill $70K jobs because nobody wants to work third shift. It's pathetic.

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[FearTheBeard]

Had a friend the other day say he'd never vote for Hillary because "shes gonna take guns away." So damn ridiculous

 

[GoIrish41]

If you can't find and hold a job making a living wage, you're just plain lazy. Yes, layoffs and prolonged job searches happen, but those are temporary. I've worked with high school dropouts who managed to earn $40,000 salaries as McDonalds restaurant managers. My dad makes over $70,000 in a manufacturing job with zero special skills or education required. The people that fail at his company fail because they show up to work high/drunk or don't show up to work at all. In these "dire economic times," they can't find good workers to fill $70K jobs because nobody wants to work third shift. It's pathetic.

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It costs, on average, between $12 and $15k a year to raise a child in this country. So your McDonald's employee who has two children has $10k left to pay all the other bills that a typical family has -- rent, utilities, gas, car payments, taxes, etc. $40k a year gets you in the club with the poor. For every manager at McDonald's there are 20 or 25 employees who are making significantly less. Are they all just plain lazy? Seems like a gross overstatement. Your dad makes over $70k but people who are just getting started with that factory make the same amount? I guess it does not matter much because manufacturing jobs are few and far between in the lion's share of the country. Where are the rest of these lazy bastards supposed to find a job making $70k? Most of those jobs got shipped oversees where workforce are regularly exploited and work for slave wages in horrible conditions. Only so many managers are going to be needed by McDonald's. What about the rest? If only they were not so lazy, they could find jobs that do not exist? Your anecdotal world is nowhere near reality for the majority of expanding population of working poor in this country.

 

[wizards8507]

It costs, on average, between $12 and $15k a year to raise a child in this country. So your McDonald's employee who has two children has $10k left to pay all the other bills that a typical family has -- rent, utilities, gas, car payments, taxes, etc. $40k a year gets you in the club with the poor. For every manager at McDonald's there are 20 or 25 employees who are making significantly less. Are they all just plain lazy? Seems like a gross overstatement. Your dad makes over $70k but people who are just getting started with that factory make the same amount? I guess it does not matter much because manufacturing jobs are few and far between in the lion's share of the country. Where are the rest of these lazy bastards supposed to find a job making $70k? Most of those jobs got shipped oversees where workforce are regularly exploited and work for slave wages in horrible conditions. Only so many managers are going to be needed by McDonald's. What about the rest? If only they were not so lazy, they could find jobs that do not exist? Your anecdotal world is nowhere near reality for the majority of expanding population of working poor in this country.

"The rest" of those McDonalds workers are high school students, exactly the workers who should be earning minimum wage. If you have two children and haven't developed skills superior to those of a high school student, that's your own damn fault. Anyone with half a brain over 18 can get promoted to manager because so many of the workers either DON'T have half a brain or are students just passing through and not looking to advance. Your analysis of "only one in 25 positions are managers" is a testament to just how pitiful the quality of that labor force is that the odds are so stacked against the worker and it still doesn't take a genius to get promoted.

As I said, quality manufacturing jobs aren't as rare as you'd believe. My father's company struggles to fill those positions because new hires burn out quickly when they realize the job requires hard work.

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[Polish Leppy 22]

It costs, on average, between $12 and $15k a year to raise a child in this country. So your McDonald's employee who has two children has $10k left to pay all the other bills that a typical family has -- rent, utilities, gas, car payments, taxes, etc. $40k a year gets you in the club with the poor. For every manager at McDonald's there are 20 or 25 employees who are making significantly less. Are they all just plain lazy? Seems like a gross overstatement. Your dad makes over $70k but people who are just getting started with that factory make the same amount? I guess it does not matter much because manufacturing jobs are few and far between in the lion's share of the country. Where are the rest of these lazy bastards supposed to find a job making $70k? Most of those jobs got shipped oversees where workforce are regularly exploited and work for slave wages in horrible conditions. Only so many managers are going to be needed by McDonald's. What about the rest? If only they were not so lazy, they could find jobs that do not exist? Your anecdotal world is nowhere near reality for the majority of expanding population of working poor in this country.

The McDonald's employee with two kids put themselves in that situation. No one is entitled to a certain wage due to the bills they have to pay.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Do we agree that we should let corporations continue to stockpile cash while American workers don't make enough to survive? I do not think so. Perhaps we agree that free trade agreements that result in jobs being shipped to nations who allow workers to work 16 hours a day for 40 cents an hour should be avoided. We also might agree that corporations should not be involved in the writing of laws that ensure an uneven playing field. Your theory that the minimum wage is destroying American jobs is not supported by evidence. In fact, even corporations like Walmart and McDonald's have begun to raise the minimum wage at their stores because, I guess, sleeping at night or looking at themselves in the mirror turned out to be important to them.

The amount of power you think the federal government should have is frightening.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

The amount of power you think the federal government should have is frightening.

+1

 

[GoIrish41]

The amount of power you think the federal government should have is frightening.

Much better that a handful of CEOs have that power without any accountability.

 

[GoIrish41]

"The rest" of those McDonalds workers are high school students, exactly the workers who should be earning minimum wage. If you have two children and haven't developed skills superior to those of a high school student, that's your own damn fault. Anyone with half a brain over 18 can get promoted to manager because so many of the workers either DON'T have half a brain or are students just passing through and not looking to advance. Your analysis of "only one in 25 positions are managers" is a testament to just how pitiful the quality of that labor force is that the odds are so stacked against the worker and it still doesn't take a genius to get promoted.

As I said, quality manufacturing jobs aren't as rare as you'd believe. My father's company struggles to fill those positions because new hires burn out quickly when they realize the job requires hard work.

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The rest of the employees are not high school students. Have you been to a fast food joint lately?Employees there are just as likely to be your age as teenagers. It is a phenomenon that has developed over the past several years. Do you think all these people suddenly had an urge to start making Big Macs for a living knowing that every facet of their lift would get worse as a result? It is pretty clear that something a little more than "lazy stupid people" just suddenly started coming out of the woodwork. Jobs requiring the skills many of these folks had were shipped to the lowest bidder. The scraps that are left are in the service industry with historically low wages. That is not something that can logically be blamed on the workforce.

 

[wizards8507]

The rest of the employees are not high school students. Have you been to a fast food joint lately?Employees there are just as likely to be your age as teenagers. It is a phenomenon that has developed over the past several years. Do you think all these people suddenly had an urge to start making Big Macs for a living knowing that every facet of their lift would get worse as a result? It is pretty clear that something a little more than "lazy stupid people" just suddenly started coming out of the woodwork. Jobs requiring the skills many of these folks had were shipped to the lowest bidder. The scraps that are left are in the service industry with historically low wages. That is not something that can logically be blamed on the workforce.

I don't buy that we're a nation of victims, I just don't. I don't care if someone is blaming greed for all of their troubles or if they're blaming Obama. It's crap. Get out there and kill it. This is still a country of opportunity but you need to go out there and find or create it for yourself. When I put myself $50,000 in debt by age 22, I didn't cry about the evils of high tuition or predatory lending from the auto companies, I sucked it up and made some tough choices, including living in Florida longer than I wanted to and putting a family on hold for a few years. I also busted my ass at work and got promoted. I didn't blame "life" or "the system" for the hole I dug myself, I just grabbed a shovel and dug myself out.

Too many people are content being a supporting character in their own life stories. And you're content subsidizing that mindset. It's the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

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[wizards8507]

Much better that a handful of CEOs have that power without any accountability.

They have accountability. It's called the marketplace. At a bare minimum, companies must produce a good or service that people need, want, or desire. Otherwise they cease to exist.

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[GoIrish41]

I don't buy that we're a nation of victims, I just don't. I don't care if someone is blaming greed for all of their troubles or if they're blaming Obama. It's crap. Get out there and kill it. This is still a country of opportunity but you need to go out there and find or create it for yourself. When I put myself $50,000 in debt by age 22, I didn't cry about the evils of high tuition or predatory lending from the auto companies, I sucked it up and made some tough choices, including living in Florida longer than I wanted to and putting a family on hold for a few years. I also busted my ass at work and got promoted. I didn't blame "life" or "the system" for the hole I dug myself, I just grabbed a shovel and dug myself out.

Too many people are content being a supporting character in their own life stories. And you're content subsidizing that mindset. It's the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

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You do not buy it .... must not be so? C'mon. Take off your "the market will decide" glasses and look around. Corporations are writing our laws so the can shamelessly keep destroying the environment for profit. They are dumping $millions into candidates who want to dismantle the safety net and get rid of minimum wage laws. They maneuver to limit the benefits they pay employees and do not even want them to have health care. They want the poor -- those who are barely surviving -- to pay more taxes so the richest among us can pay less. It is offensive and mean spirited. This is going back to where we were during the industrial revolution.

You got a solid start in life in a good middle class neighborhood (I am guessing). Your parents were not routinely turned down for loans for a mortgage or cars or when an appliance went on the fritz. (Again, guessing). Your parents did not have to work 2 or 3 jobs each to keep food on the table and the crime rate where you live was probably not out of control. You probably had better teachers than a lot of young people, and a support system in place to ease the blow if life got too dicey. You want to believe that everyone had the same experience, but they absolutely did not. The level of poverty and the lack of hope that exists in places all around this country is noting like what you described. Doing what you did is next to impossible for millions of poor people in this country. It must be comforting for you believing as you must that you are so much better than all these lazy, good for nothing unwashed who cannot bring themselves to go through the trouble of leaning over to grab the brass ring. You have worked hard -- I do not doubt it, but you also had opportunities that a lot of people do not get. I think that everyone should get equal opportunities but they do not and that time does not seem to be coming anytime soon.

We are at the beginning of the next guilded age. The poorest among us are the first to feel the squeeze. How will you feel when even the folks who used to get your head start get the rug pulled out from under them? Blaming the victim for events beyond their control is a bit harsh. But sure, there are anecdotes that show that one or two might overcome and make it out of poverty. But for every one there are thousands who do not. The anecdotes are as meaningless as your own story in the grand scheme. What is happening to huge groups of people? What s the norm? That is more telling. Dismissing these people as lazy is, well, lazy. It is suggesting that millions of people have just said "fuck it". That is extremely difficult to believe if we are being honest with ourselves.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Much better that a handful of CEOs have that power without any accountability.

Yeah, let's hand all that power over to a small group of self serving politicians who rotate every few years. That'll fix income inequality!

 

[Buster Bluth]

Yea... I fear what it will take to accomplish a clean government...because the type of people we are dealing with here are soulless and entitled, on both sides of the deal.

It really is no longer an issue of a couple bad apples...but rather what do you do when the orchard is bad?

I don't think one POTUS can address this...but I agree it'd be nice for someone to start shining a light on that shit and the POTUS has visibility and press to make some hay...In the end, it will take an angry, outraged, united people standing behind such a POTUS.

We could start by electing a man with an impeccable character record, like Bernie Sanders.

Burn it

I think before we do that, let's just elect someone who doesn't have a history of talking out of their ass to win votes. That should eliminate everyone but Bernie.

 

[PerthDomer]

I think Rand on the R side and Bernie on the D side are the two who prioritize ideas over elections/would be clean as presidents. This is why they probably won't win their nominations.

 

[pkt77242]

They have accountability. It's called the marketplace. At a bare minimum, companies must produce a good or service that people need, want, or desire. Otherwise they cease to exist.

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While I agree that CEO's are somewhat accountable, I would say the fact that about 70% of CEO's hold both the CEO and Chairman of the Board titles for their company lessens their accountability some.


On a side note, one of the major problems with our marketplace now is that it isn't enough for a company to be profitable, they need to have ever increasing profits which is demanded by the "market" which most consists of large companies and the rich (dollar wise). The thing is in the name of ever increasing profits, middle management jobs have disappeared, and even entry level positions in most fields have decreased as technology becomes a larger focus.

This leads to two problems, one if you can get hired it becomes harder to rise through the levels which use to be how people rose out of poverty. They would take a factory job, and slowly work their way up the chain to middle management, taking their family from lower class to middle class. As those jobs disappeared it has made it significantly harder for poor people with little or no education to get out of poverty (not impossible, just more difficult). The other thing that has happened is that wages for most employees have stagnated while the top echelon of the company has seen drastic increases in their salary.

To put it succinctly, companies have become run by the rich (CEO and other c-suite positions and the board members) for the rich (the shareholders who are disproportionately the wealthy). The increase in profits has made these two groups significantly more wealthy, but unfortunately it has been at the expense of the rest of the population.

I will be honest that I am not sure how you fix this problem or if there is even a fix for this problem. I think it is an inherent problem of capitalism especially when combined with the advancement of technology in recent years.

Who's getting rich off the stock market? - Sep. 18, 2014
The pay gap between CEOs and workers is much worse than you realize - The Washington Post

 

[pkt77242]

The one problem Rand has, it that he occasionally goes off the deep end.

Rand Paul: Obama is working with ‘anti-American globalists plot[ting] against our Constitution.’ - The Washington Post

Rand Paul In '08: Beware The NAFTA Superhighway! (VIDEO)

 

[PerthDomer]

before he joined the senate he was primarily involved in politics as a campaign manager for his dad. I think he's a pragmatist which is why he's stayed (mostly) on message since joining the senate.

 

[magogian]

It costs, on average, between $12 and $15k a year to raise a child in this country. So your McDonald's employee who has two children has $10k left to pay all the other bills that a typical family has -- rent, utilities, gas, car payments, taxes, etc. $40k a year gets you in the club with the poor.

People on the lower income levels get all kinds of federal, state, and local assistance, especially if they have kids. So, it isn't accurate to just calculate based on their salaries.

 

[pkt77242]

People on the lower income levels get all kinds of federal, state, and local assistance, especially if they have kids. So, it isn't accurate to just calculate based on their salaries.

At 40K, a family of four would not get much assistance as they would be 150%+ of the federal poverty line for a family of 4 (I believe the Federal poverty line is about 24K for a family of 4) and many benefits don't go to that level.

Federal Poverty Guidelines | Families USA

ETA: If the person was a single parent making $40,500, they would be over the 200% threshold, and I can't think of any federal programs that give assistance at over 200%, though I admit that there might be some out there (and I found one, the ACA).

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

As a small business owner. I'm talking small. I have three full time employees, salary plus monthly commission. one makes $ 700 a week the other two make $600 a week. they work around 50 hours a week, so that makes one guy is making $ 14.00 and the other two
$12.00, plus commission. I Also have two part time high school kids who get around 20 hours a week at $9.00 a hour. So! my payroll is $117,520 annually . Make it 15.00 i have my manager making as much as my high school kid who is my janitor basically. Can we say some serious employee animosity? I will have a shit show on my hands. Because if everyone makes $15.00 that puts payroll at $156,000 annually. $38,480 difference. kiss my ass goodbye. for the record, I pay myself a 1,000 a week. i put in around 65 hours a week. that's 15.40 a hour.

 

[RDU Irish]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoIrish41 View Post
I want the government to make it less profitable to build plants in Asia than in Ohio.

So we agree. The minimum wage is destroying American jobs.

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More the ACA, EPA, tax structure and welfare state than minimum wage.

 

[RDU Irish]

As a small business owner. I'm talking small. I have three full time employees, salary plus monthly commission. one makes $ 700 a week the other two make $600 a week. they work around 50 hours a week, so that makes one guy is making $ 14.00 and the other two
$12.00, plus commission. I Also have two part time high school kids who get around 20 hours a week at $9.00 a hour. So! my payroll is $117,520 annually . Make it 15.00 i have my manager making as much as my high school kid who is my janitor basically. Can we say some serious employee animosity? I will have a shit show on my hands. Because if everyone makes $15.00 that puts payroll at $156,000 annually. $38,480 difference. kiss my ass goodbye. for the record, I pay myself a 1,000 a week. i put in around 65 hours a week. that's 15.40 a hour.

And what is your true cost per hour when you account for unemployment, FICA and benefits?

Wage creep is the term you are eluding to. Paying the lowest ranking employee $15/hour means each grade needs to move up as well to validate their value above that of a "minimum" worker.

Also consider the motivation to skip high school or college to better yourself because the new $15/hour minimum wage seems like a better option than going to school to train for a real career.

 

[phgreek]

Much better that a handful of CEOs have that power without any accountability.

Not a fan of concentrating power in any realm...balance is good.

The government certainly has a regulatory role to play...But COME ON, What about government is "accountable"... I won't bore everyone with my list of favs where the government has been brazenly Fraudulent, wasteful, and abusive, and ultimately... totally unaccountable.

Choosing between the two, corporations have PR impacts which ultimately make them quasi accountable...the funny part is, the thing that applies teflon to corporations IS government. If government would generally get back into its reasoned regulatory role, and stop trying to be job services, we'd be better off. Smaller government is better, so long as the right things are funded, and politics is driven out of execution of federal duties...was a time when Lois Lerner would have been fired for failing to appear to be impartial, much less actually outwardly politically hostile.