Stolen Valor / Disrespecting the American Flag

[kmoose]

Heh. This conversation started off with me saying what I see the eventual progression is. That can only be done with a hypothesis.



Looks like someone needs to go pick up a book or two and read about the history of the country you're so proud to be a member of.

"One Nation, under God" was added to the pledge in the 1950s.

'In God We Trust' was added to currency around the time of the Civil War.

"So Help Me God" was added to oaths around the 1780s and it's not in the Presidential Oath.

All of these are after add ins from what the founding fathers wanted.



And I think you're wrong to do so. One, it's pretty pathetic that you want to create laws around 'the feels' and two, wanting to create law that would prevent burning the flag show a lack of understanding to the founding ideals of this nation.



Could you be any more of a freaking tool? Am I on a MSNBC or FOX news interview?

No, I am not for that you idiot.



Oh...we have a keyboard warrior. Do you feel better about yourself tough guy? I would never burn the flag but it has nothing to do with fear of what you or anyone else would do.

There are protests like this all of the time. How about you step away from your keyboard and get in an arms length of those folks?

Ad Hominem much?

 

[GDomer09]

The arguing on here about this subject is the most bizarre shit I've ever seen. Before I continue I want to clarify that I understand everybody's angles completely, I just think it's very disheartening that people are making excuses for it.

"Oh it offends you and that's why you want it illegal. Quit being so sensitive"

"It’s freedom of speech and expression so it should be legal."

WHO CARES!!!

You don't shit on a symbol that symbolizes your freedom to shit on it?

This is equivalent to a Christian burning a Bible because they're mad at the way they think God treated them. Yet they still Love God and it has nothing to do with not wanting to be a Christian. Makes sense right? Lol

You know who else frequently burns the U.S. flag - Terrorists who would like nothing else for every single person in this country dead (including these people burning the flag).

These scenes take me back to the day of 9/11 and after. To see all those people in Pakistan and Afghanistan burning our flag in triumph.

I don't care who the hell you are, what your beliefs are or what constitutional spin you're trying to put on this shit. If you don't understand why people want it to be 100% illegal then I have no use for you.

 

[Grahambo]

If I found out any of you burned the flag I would be beyond disappointed and #block you. (That's as internet tough as I can get.)

 

[kmoose]

Looks like someone needs to go pick up a book or two and read about the history of the country you're so proud to be a member of.

"One Nation, under God" was added to the pledge in the 1950s.

'In God We Trust' was added to currency around the time of the Civil War.

"So Help Me God" was added to oaths around the 1780s and it's not in the Presidential Oath.

All of these are after add ins from what the founding fathers wanted.

Just so that this doesn't go uncorrected, and lest people think that the Founding Fathers were somehow against religion:

From the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government

"their Creator" is a pretty obvious reference to God, Yaweh, Allah, Vishnu, or whatever other deity you want to insert. So the very foundation of our country; our own Declaration of Independence, references a religious principle as one of the very basic justifications for the formation of a new nation.

 

[GoldenDome]

You don't shit on a symbol that symbolizes your freedom to shit on it?

A symbol that 95% of the time is manufactured in China?

 

[kmoose]

A symbol that 95% of the time is manufactured in China?

That's not true. 95% of the imported flags come from China, but not 95% of the flags.

It’s estimated that around 7.5 million American flags sold in the United States also happen to be foreign made. The Flag Manufacturer’s Association of America believes around five percent of all flags sold in the US are completely made outside of the United States. For example, the United States imported $4 million in American flags in 2013 and 97 percent of these foreign flags were made in China.
Read more at American Flag Act Would Require 100 Percent Made In USA, Not Made In China

 

[Bugzly21]

I apologize because I haven't read any of the comments and know what you all are talking about as far as the thread title goes. I've been full steam ahead for the last 3 weeks with finals and summer semester that is a week a day.
I am an Army vet 3 tours to Iraq, declined twice to volunteer to Afghanistan. Those that chose to stolen valor are the worst of the worst. They are the ones that bash the US while trying to pose as those that protect the US.
As for those that burn the flag or walk on the flag, I wish nothing but the worst possible thing for them. I hope some group that hates the US gets ahold of them and we get to watch them beg for the US to help them. I have lost 23 brothers and sister in arms for this country. When I see assholes doing what they're doing to the flag on social media (if I saw it personally I'd be in jail), I see them doing it on their grave. You can hate the government but that's not the US. You want to meet some of the most educated people about the US talk to a military person. If you want to know the climate of where we stand as a country talk to a military person.

 

[dales5050]

"their Creator" is a pretty obvious reference to God, Yaweh, Allah, Vishnu, or whatever other deity you want to insert. So the very foundation of our country; our own Declaration of Independence, references a religious principle as one of the very basic justifications for the formation of a new nation.

Um...It's not. People of faith like to think so but they also believe the stories in the Bible are true. My creators are my parents.

 

[GoIrish41]

But tone matters. Humor isn't hatred.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Humor at whose expense? Not everyone has the same sense of humor. Your "joke" might be really offensive to some. If it is not offensive to you does not mean that others just have to go along. They might even think your joke was hateful. is it their responsibility to understand the "tone" or should the joker be mindful that his words might offend? Civility matters!

 

[wizards8507]

Humor at whose expense? Not everyone has the same sense of humor. Your "joke" might be really offensive to some. If it is not offensive to you does not mean that others just have to go along. They might even think your joke was hateful. is it their responsibility to understand the "tone" or should the joker be mindful that his words might offend? Civility matters!

The listener's interpretation does not get to define the speaker's motivation and "hate" requires intent.

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[Irish YJ]

The listener's interpretation does not get to define the speaker's motivation and "hate" requires intent.

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come on wiz. hate may require intent, but hateful tone is hateful tone regardless of motivation or intent. If you don't want to call it hateful, I guess you could label the person an insensitive @$$hole.

I laugh when I see all this splitting hair bull$#!+. Being a dick is being a dick, even if you don't realize your being a dick.

 

[GoIrish41]

The listener's interpretation does not get to define the speaker's motivation and "hate" requires intent.

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If the listener's interpretation is not considered before something is said that shows, at best, indifference to the people one is speaking to. And if one knows that the statement is going to be offensive to the listener and the words are spoken anyway, what conclusions should be drawn other than a lack of civility on the speakers part? That is a fairly hateful thing to do in my estimation. You can argue that a gay joke might not mean that the teller hates gays, but you would have a difficult time convincing me that such a provocative statement -- understanding the listener will be offended -- is not "hateful". Just because we can say things and it is not against the law does not mean we should. That is just part of living in a civil society. We would all be better off if people did not intentionally say things that would offend -- even if it is a "joke.".

 

[kmoose]

So now this is bigotry?
http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/pro...-michael-sam-comes-out-gay-4.html#post1538495

If "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" wasn't bigotry, then neither is that.

 

[Fbolt]

My point on these riveting topics:

-I don't much care for gay guys, but I do identify with lesbians. I'm a lesbian too.

-I have better things to do than give someone attention who burns the flag. That's what they want.

-When you know your being a dick, your a dick even if your not being a dick on purpose. However, if you have no inkling your a dick, then hey-how would you know if you are one without anyone telling you? BTW-I can be a dick and I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

[Wild Bill]

The only thing missing in this thread is Pat. He'd do some serious work in here.

 

[AvesEvo]

I do not believe people should have a legal right to burn the flag in protest. Plenty of other ways to protest. Burning the flag, stomping on it, etc is beyond disrespectful in my opinion and should punished with a criminal offense.

As for stolen valor, I simply just pray for that person. I'm not gonna turn into some hard ass because somebody is a wanna-be. Not sure if its a crime or not but that should also be a crime. Impersonating a Military Member or something like that.

I don't understand the outrage over burning the flag, it is a human creation, not divine.

 

[Irish YJ]

Make people laugh?

This whole thing is stupid. If you burn the flag or hate gay people, you're an ass. But I hope we still live in a country where being an ass isn't a prosecutable offense.

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Would that require the Ass Police?

 

[dudexcore]

Haven't read the entire thread. Don't care to. But if I purchase a flag it's my property. If I want to fly it proudly in front of my house I will. If I want to set it on fire I will. If I want to blend it up and drink it with my morning smoothie then I will. Anyone that has a problem with it can eat me. Carry on.

 

[MNIrishman]

Haven't read the entire thread. Don't care to. But if I purchase a flag it's my property. If I want to fly it proudly in front of my house I will. If I want to set it on fire I will. If I want to blend it up and drink it with my morning smoothie then I will. Anyone that has a problem with it can eat me. Carry on.

 

[GoldenDome]

Make people laugh?

This whole thing is stupid. If you burn the flag or hate gay people, you're an ass. But I hope we still live in a country where being an ass isn't a prosecutable offense.

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But for the prior, people feel it is necessary to change the laws to forbid the act, while the other is just being sensitive. Despite being an ass, there is a double standard.

As far as being an ass, those people I truly feel sorry for. Lowest of the low as far as self esteem. They need a confidence boost.

 

[kmoose]

Um...It's not. People of faith like to think so but they also believe the stories in the Bible are true. My creators are my parents.

1. I really doubt that the founding fathers were referring to people's parents, when they wrote that.

2. Creator, not creator. One is a title, the other is.......... some other English thing(adjective, maybe?).

 

[Andy in Sactown]

The arguing on here about this subject is the most bizarre shit I've ever seen. Before I continue I want to clarify that I understand everybody's angles completely, I just think it's very disheartening that people are making excuses for it.

"Oh it offends you and that's why you want it illegal. Quit being so sensitive"

"It’s freedom of speech and expression so it should be legal."

WHO CARES!!!

You don't shit on a symbol that symbolizes your freedom to shit on it?

This is equivalent to a Christian burning a Bible because they're mad at the way they think God treated them. Yet they still Love God and it has nothing to do with not wanting to be a Christian. Makes sense right? Lol

You know who else frequently burns the U.S. flag - Terrorists who would like nothing else for every single person in this country dead (including these people burning the flag).

These scenes take me back to the day of 9/11 and after. To see all those people in Pakistan and Afghanistan burning our flag in triumph.

I don't care who the hell you are, what your beliefs are or what constitutional spin you're trying to put on this shit. If you don't understand why people want it to be 100% illegal then I have no use for you.

First neg rep in a long, long time. "Have no use for you [me]"? That's out of your control. Had plenty of use for for me when I was standing a watch defending your freedom to spout nonsense like this.

 

[Fbolt]

Taking it entirely too personal Sactown IMO.

This thread seems to have gone out of control.

Can I get arrested and frisked by the ass police?

 

[Andy in Sactown]

Taking it entirely too personal Sactown IMO.

This thread seems to have gone out of control.

Can I get arrested and frisked by the ass police?

Eh, perhaps. That post pissed me off, but it's his right to speak his mind, which is the right we're fundamentally talking about.

 

[GDomer09]

First neg rep in a long, long time. "Have no use for you [me]"? That's out of your control. Had plenty of use for for me when I was standing a watch defending your freedom to spout nonsense like this.

What??? WTF!!!! Let me get this straight, you as a soldier agree to allow people to burn the flag? Since this is the people I said I had no use for, color me confused at your outrage!

I also love how you assumed I never served! Thanks!

So you're saying you agree with the burning of a flag that symbolizes what you fought for? You would be the first of many that I've ever met/knew/related too. The dozens of military friends and family I have would gladly tell you that if you agree with this you sir are nonsense.

Like I said this is a commonsense and/or respect issue. If you don't get it you lack one, the other, or both.

There is never a reasonable excuse to burn the flag, unless like the people who hate us and want us all dead, you would like for our country to burn!!!

 

[GDomer09]

Eh, perhaps. That post pissed me off, but it's his right to speak his mind, which is the right we're fundamentally talking about.

It's just fine to speak your mind, like you said that right has been fought for, but tell me sir what does burning a flag say?

 

[wizards8507]

Let me get this straight, you as a soldier agree to allow people to burn the flag?

So you're saying you agree with the burning of a flag that symbolizes what you fought for?

You're asking two vastly different questions. Whether something is right or wrong is not the same as asking whether it should be legal or not.

I believe Andy in Sactown would agree that you would be a tremendous asshole or worse for burning the flag, but that we live in a country where you're free to be a tremendous asshole.

 

[greyhammer90]

It's just fine to speak your mind, like you said that right has been fought for, but tell me sir what does burning a flag say?

Depends on the speaker. To assume that the person who burnt it wants our country to burn is a laughable oversimplification.

 

[kmoose]

What??? WTF!!!! Let me get this straight, you as a soldier agree to allow people to burn the flag?

Andy isn't a soldier, he's a squid; a dirty sailor in other words.

I also love how you assumed I never served! Thanks!

I'm not in his head, but I don't think he assumed that you never served. He said that he stood watch defending the flag. To me that indicated why he feels so strongly about the subject, rather than an indication that you had not done your part (if you have).

So you're saying you agree with the burning of a flag that symbolizes what you fought for? You would be the first of many that I've ever met/knew/related too. The dozens of military friends and family I have would gladly tell you that if you agree with this you sir are nonsense.

I don't think (I'm going off of memory here, not a complete review of the entire thread) he ever said that he agreed with the burning of a flag, only that people have a right to do it. I don't agree with pushing rules to their very limits, and I don't think people should be doing it, but I think they have a right to. There's a difference between acknowledging a right, and condoning the action.

There is never a reasonable excuse to burn the flag, unless like the people who hate us and want us all dead, you would like for our country to burn!!!

You must have missed this before, but...........
From the US Flag Code:

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

Not only is it reasonable to burn an old, tattered flag......... it is actually the preferred method of disposing of it. So yes, there is a reasonable excuse out there, to burn the flag.

 

[Andy in Sactown]

I believe Andy in Sactown would agree that you would be a tremendous asshole or worse for burning the flag, but that we live in a country where you're free to be a tremendous asshole.

Tremendous asshole doesn't even come close to how I'd feel about someone burning the flag. I'd want to hurt them. But I wouldn't. From my perspective not allowing them their freedom of speech would diminish the importance of the flag as a symbol of our constitutional freedoms as Americans and our great country, if perhaps only in my heart and mind, it would be enough to stay my vengeance.

Andy isn't a soldier, he's a squid; a dirty sailor in other words.

And a gator sailor to boot. We take the Marines to and from the Sandbox.

I'm not in his head, but I don't think he assumed that you never served. He said that he stood watch defending the flag. To me that indicated why he feels so strongly about the subject, rather than an indication that you had not done your part (if you have).

I don't think (I'm going off of memory here, not a complete review of the entire thread) he ever said that he agreed with the burning of a flag, only that people have a right to do it. I don't agree with pushing rules to their very limits, and I don't think people should be doing it, but I think they have a right to. There's a difference between acknowledging a right, and condoning the action.

You must have missed this before, but...........
From the US Flag Code:

Not only is it reasonable to burn an old, tattered flag......... it is actually the preferred method of disposing of it. So yes, there is a reasonable excuse out there, to burn the flag.

For not being in my head you did a pretty good job of summarizing my position on the issue. Great point about the U.S. Flag Code and dignified disposal by burning. Hadn't been brought up before in this thread.