2016 Presidential Horse Race

[wizards8507]

The pill is prescribed by virtually every doctor that treats women for a variety of reasons -- from treatin acne in young girls, to regulating menstrual cycles, to prevention of cervical cancer, to easing discomfort of periods in women. Not every woman who takes the pill does so for birth control. In fact, not every woman who is on the pill is sexually active. Google "uses for contraceptives other than birth control" and you will find dozens of reports on the topic. Or you could just listen to your friend. Nobody is arguing that there are not other treatments but only that contraceptives are regularly prescribed for reasons other than birth control. Those decisions should be made by the woman on the advice of her doctor. You are not arguing that the government should butt in are you? I am amused at the idea that there are people who think that the only reason women take the pill is so they can whore it up without consequence. Not shocked that opinion is almost exclusively on the right. Do not be surprised when they do not sit in the Oval Office anytime soon because issues like this make it easy to conclude they are not listening to women ... Even the ones in their own party.

You're misinformed. "The pill" does not treat acne. The prescription acne medication causes such severe birth defects that they make you take birth control in conjunction.

Regardless, no Republican anywhere is trying to ban oral contraceptives, whether as birth control or otherwise so it's irrelevant. Just pay for it yourself. Or, insurance companies can offer it if they choose to. It's the mandate that insurance companies MUST provide it at no out of pocket cost that's so ridiculous. Neither I nor my wife has any need for birth control yet our insurance premiums are artificially inflated because we're unable to decline these mandatory "services" that my carrier is forced to provide.

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[Veritate Duce Progredi]

The pill is prescribed by virtually every doctor that treats women for a variety of reasons -- from treatin acne in young girls, to regulating menstrual cycles, to prevention of cervical cancer, to easing discomfort of periods in women. Not every woman who takes the pill does so for birth control. In fact, not every woman who is on the pill is sexually active. Google "uses for contraceptives other than birth control" and you will find dozens of reports on the topic. Or you could just listen to your friend. Nobody is arguing that there are not other treatments but only that contraceptives are regularly prescribed for reasons other than birth control. Those decisions should be made by the woman on the advice of her doctor. You are not arguing that the government should butt in are you? I am amused at the idea that there are people who think that the only reason women take the pill is so they can whore it up without consequence. Not shocked that opinion is almost exclusively on the right. Do not be surprised when they do not sit in the Oval Office anytime soon because issues like this make it easy to conclude they are not listening to women ... Even the ones in their own party.

Your inability to understand my point is only matched by the arrogance of your post. I understand the pill can be used for other purposes but it's not the intended purpose and it's rarely the best solution outside of contraception.

My friend is a doctor (not OBGYN) who is against the pill. His sister is an OBGYN and they routinely discuss the pill and it's effects and alternative treatment for various issues. If the pill is really the best treatment for all of those things, it'd be the greatest drug ever created. Each drug has primary and secondary affects. It's primary effect is as a contraceptive, it's secondary effects can be mimicked or beaten by other drugs.

I'm amused that people think the reason some of us don't like the pill is because we don't want women "whoring it up". I care about women too much to allow them to destroy themselves in the name of "progress".

I hope you clicked the link in my previous post since you appear to be a medical expert on the pill.

 

[pkt77242]

You're misinformed. "The pill" does not treat acne. The prescription acne medication causes such severe birth defects that they make you take birth control in conjunction.

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You are misinformed. It definitely can help with acne.

Birth control pills for acne? - Mayo Clinic

Yes, birth control pills (oral contraceptives) can improve acne in women.

Though typically safe and effective, birth control pills for acne (combination estrogen–progestin pills) aren't for everyone. Side effects can include headaches, change in menstrual flow, breast tenderness, and slightly increased risk of heart disease, high blood pressure and blood clots.

Talk to your doctor about how your health history and age may affect your risks with birth control pills for acne.

Or here
Acne: Which birth control pill can help improve your complexion? - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health

Researchers from the Cochrane Collaboration – an international research network – took a look at the effectiveness of contraceptive pills in the treatment of acne. They did a search for studies comparing the pill with a fake drug (placebo) or a non-hormonal acne medication. Their analysis included 31 studies involving a total of about 12,500 women. Most of the studies compared different contraceptive pills with each other or with a placebo. Hardly any of the studies compared the pill with other acne medications.

All of the contraceptive pills studied in the studies reduced both inflammatory and non-inflammatory acne. They often had to be taken for several weeks or months before the participants’ skin got better. The pills that reduced acne had ethinyl estradiol in them, combined with one of the following drugs: levonorgestrel, norethindrone, norgestimate, drospirenone, cyproterone acetate, chlormadinone acetate, dienogest or desogestrel.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Rand Paul: 'Whatever it takes to stop' Patriot Act - CNNPolitics.com

Kind of flies in the face of everyone's musing that the GOP field is going to be flying to the right.

How so? Rand Paul isn't the GOP field, he's the libertarian candidate in the middle of a sea of fellows trying to sell books to Reagan worshipers. The Paul family positions aren't exactly indicative of GOP primary trends. I hope he wins the nomination though.

Sadly though, Rand Paul did show alarming ignorance of foreign affairs in that clip, saying he'd arm the Kurds and give them a homeland. That's a guaranteed way to alienate Turkey, so it's without question a net negative move considering Turkey is a NATO member and reconsidering their secularism.

edit: considering that Bernie Sanders has voted against the Patriot Act every time, boy would it be neat to see them both filibuster it. #ProgressiveLibertarianAlliance

 

[wizards8507]

You are misinformed. It definitely can help with acne.

Birth control pills for acne? - Mayo Clinic



Or here
Acne: Which birth control pill can help improve your complexion? - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health

As Veritate said, improvement of acne is essentially a side effect. Nobody is taking birth control SPECIFICALLY to reduce acne, as there are acne-specific products that do it much better.

Your logic is like saying insurance should cover cigarettes because they help you lose weight.

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[Buster Bluth]

As Veritate said, improvement of acne is essentially a side effect. Nobody is taking birth control SPECIFICALLY to reduce acne, as there are acne-specific products that do it much better.

Your logic is like saying insurance should cover cigarettes because they help you lose weight.

I have multiple friends who take BC for reasons other than preventing pregnancy. Maybe the only useful thing I learned in DARE: there is no such thing as a side effect; an effect is an effect.

 

[pkt77242]

As Veritate said, improvement of acne is essentially a side effect. Nobody is taking birth control SPECIFICALLY to reduce acne, as there are acne-specific products that do it much better.

Your logic is like saying insurance should cover cigarettes because they help you lose weight.

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Not true. 3 have been approved for acne treatment by the FDA (and others are seen as effective), while they usually aren't typically the first pills to be prescribed they are definitely a medication that gets prescribed after the first line of pills aren't effective or produce negative side effects.

While this is from WebMD, not the best source in the world it does explain it.

Birth Control for Acne Treatment: Types, Benefits, Risks

 

[pkt77242]

To add to it.

Oral contraceptives are a good option for women’s acne: study | Reuters

The Food and Drug Administration has approved many birth control medications for treating acne as well as preventing pregnancy, so there should be no barrier to prescribing them, but dermatologists may still be reluctant, said Feldman, who was not involved in the new study.

Dermatologists often recommend low-dose hormonal birth control as an option for female patients, but don’t actually write a prescription for it, he told Reuters Health. Then the patient returns to her primary care doctor, who may write the prescription, and when the acne clears up the patient does not return to the dermatologist.

Also as this article points out the birth control meds are just as effective as the acne medication.

Birth control pills seem to work as well as antibiotics for long-term treatment of acne in women, according to a new review of past clinical trials.

After six months, both treatments reduced acne by just over 50 percent, prompting dermatologists to call the Pill a good alternative for some women and a means of avoiding the drawbacks of stronger oral acne medications or long-term antibiotic use.

Past research has shown that both antibiotics and birth control pills can improve acne, but the new review compared the two options side-by-side and found antibiotics worked better after three months, but after six months of use, results were about equal.

 

[pkt77242]

You're misinformed. "The pill" does not treat acne. The prescription acne medication causes such severe birth defects that they make you take birth control in conjunction.

Actually one acne medication causes really bad birth defects (Isotretinoin, which does require you to be on birth control) but there are some that are safe to take during pregnancy such as

erythromycin (Erygel), clindamycin (Cleocin T, Clindagel, others) and azelaic acid (Azelex, Finacea)

Pregnancy acne: What's the best treatment? - Mayo Clinic

Your inability to understand my point is only matched by the arrogance of your post. I understand the pill can be used for other purposes but it's not the intended purpose and it's rarely the best solution outside of contraception.

My friend is a doctor (not OBGYN) who is against the pill. His sister is an OBGYN and they routinely discuss the pill and it's effects and alternative treatment for various issues. If the pill is really the best treatment for all of those things, it'd be the greatest drug ever created. Each drug has primary and secondary affects. It's primary effect is as a contraceptive, it's secondary effects can be mimicked or beaten by other drugs.

I hope you clicked the link in my previous post since you appear to be a medical expert on the pill.

See my previous posts, contraceptives are very effective as acne medication, and they are prescribed for it. Sorry.

 

[Black Irish]

Seriously, guys, you're debating the merits of birth control and its effect on a presidential candidate's viability based on its ability to make pimples disappear?

 

[GoIrish41]

Your inability to understand my point is only matched by the arrogance of your post. I understand the pill can be used for other purposes but it's not the intended purpose and it's rarely the best solution outside of contraception.

My friend is a doctor (not OBGYN) who is against the pill. His sister is an OBGYN and they routinely discuss the pill and it's effects and alternative treatment for various issues. If the pill is really the best treatment for all of those things, it'd be the greatest drug ever created. Each drug has primary and secondary affects. It's primary effect is as a contraceptive, it's secondary effects can be mimicked or beaten by other drugs.

I'm amused that people think the reason some of us don't like the pill is because we don't want women "whoring it up". I care about women too much to allow them to destroy themselves in the name of "progress".

I hope you clicked the link in my previous post since you appear to be a medical expert on the pill.

Apparently it is a better solution than you are suggesting as doctors across the country would not likely prescribe the pill with such regularity to treat all of these other issues if they had compelling evidence that it was doing them significant harm. I think it is safe to say that your friend is an outlier on this issue, but you seem to only want to believe what he is saying and ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

As to the underlined, my guess is the almost all women probably do not feel as though they require your permission to take their own doctors' medical advice. That said, you are the only poster here making the argument about oral contraceptives causing harm. Wiz, on the other hand, is just saying he does not want to pay for them, no matter what they are used to treat. That is a substantially different argument -- one that would make one start comparing other medicines and whether or not we want to pay for them. I think it was dshans who brought up that Viagra is covered by most of these medical plans but we don't hear the arguments against paying for that drug. If we are going to start voting on which drugs we want to pay for and which we don't, we are going to take a lot of drugs off the market and have a lot more sick people. Finally, I was not directing the "whoring it up" comments at you. I should have been more clear about that.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Just to add my two cents in to this topic. My wife hasn't really...well...stopped bleeding since she gave birth to our daughter. Almost 4 months ago. She is on the pill to help regulate her hormones. The doctor just tossed them to her as " samples" and she hasn't paid for them or gone through insurance.

With that being said, I don't think it is anyone's responsibility to pay for our misfortune, or, well her misfortune of having this 'female' issue. That's my problem with Obamacare. I'm all for people having insurance. But, if you need ' help' from the government. Welfare, Healthcare, Wic, or any other government assistance. Its the basics, bare minimum, the necessity's.

Birth control pills can do more than help prevent pregnancy, as seen in my wife's case. But the fact of the matter is that it is BIRTH control. Not a necessity.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Just to add my two cents in to this topic. My wife hasn't really...well...stopped bleeding since she gave birth to our daughter. Almost 4 months ago. She is on the pill to help regulate her hormones. The doctor just tossed them to her as " samples" and she hasn't paid for them or gone through insurance.

With that being said, I don't think it is anyone's responsibility to pay for our misfortune, or, well her misfortune of having this 'female' issue. That's my problem with Obamacare. I'm all for people having insurance. But, if you need ' help' from the government. Welfare, Healthcare, Wic, or any other government assistance. Its the basics, bare minimum, the necessity's.

Birth control pills can do more than help prevent pregnancy, as seen in my wife's case. But the fact of the matter is that it is BIRTH control. Not a necessity.

Birth control helps keep even more off of these programs.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Birth control helps keep even more off of these programs.

No, doubt. Extremely valid point. But then we get in to a debate about the social economic disasters we have going on, from the Hollers of West Virginia to streets of Compton and of course everywhere in between ( no offense to the Mountaineers and NWA members on the board)

 

[GoIrish41]

Just to add my two cents in to this topic. My wife hasn't really...well...stopped bleeding since she gave birth to our daughter. Almost 4 months ago. She is on the pill to help regulate her hormones. The doctor just tossed them to her as " samples" and she hasn't paid for them or gone through insurance.

With that being said, I don't think it is anyone's responsibility to pay for our misfortune, or, well her misfortune of having this 'female' issue. That's my problem with Obamacare. I'm all for people having insurance. But, if you need ' help' from the government. Welfare, Healthcare, Wic, or any other government assistance. Its the basics, bare minimum, the necessity's.

Birth control pills can do more than help prevent pregnancy, as seen in my wife's case. But the fact of the matter is that it is BIRTH control. Not a necessity.

Do you feel the same about chemotherapy for cancer patients? We can't get to the point where everyone is just paying for health care on an al la carte basis, can we? What if we guess wrong when we start our insurance policy at age 25 and indestructible, and when we are 50 we get cancer? Financial ruin? I think a lot of folks are applying their own morality on the medical care of others and if we start doing that, we are all going to be worse for it.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Apparently it is a better solution than you are suggesting as doctors across the country would not likely prescribe the pill with such regularity to treat all of these other issues if they had compelling evidence that it was doing them significant harm. I think it is safe to say that your friend is an outlier on this issue, but you seem to only want to believe what he is saying and ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

As to the underlined, my guess is the almost all women probably do not feel as though they require your permission to take their own doctors' medical advice. That said, you are the only poster here making the argument about oral contraceptives causing harm. Wiz, on the other hand, is just saying he does not want to pay for them, no matter what they are used to treat. That is a substantially different argument -- one that would make one start comparing other medicines and whether or not we want to pay for them. I think it was dshans who brought up that Viagra is covered by most of these medical plans but we don't hear the arguments against paying for that drug. If we are going to start voting on which drugs we want to pay for and which we don't, we are going to take a lot of drugs off the market and have a lot more sick people. Finally, I was not directing the "whoring it up" comments at you. I should have been more clear about that.

Understood and I appreciate you not taking too much offense from my last post. I don't know what my problem is lately but I've been overly aggressive in everything, including my replies on IE. Please take my apologies seriously, as I don't get my jollies by being a d!ck on message boards.

Being the only poster discussing how BC can cause harm isn't a reason to summarily dismiss the info provided. I hope you do some more research and read about the effects BC has on women. It's far more convenient for the father to say, "Uhh yeah, we gave our 14/15 year old daughter BC for her acne" than "We didn't want her getting pregnant".

All of the replies pointing to the efficacy of BC in treating acne doesn't disprove my point. It is not the first line of defense for acne and could even be replaced by countless other drugs.

Most OBGYNs assume their patient pool want to disable their womb so that is taken into consideration when DXing other conditions. If the pill can primarily prevent pregnancy plus some other things, it's what they prescribe. I'm not going to argue from a conspiracy theorists vantage because it won't help but it's easy to see the trends that have occurred since the sexual revolution.

I don't want to control women and I'm getting a little tired of your attempts to apply that narrative . I could just as easily claim you and the rest of the "leftists" want to control women by convincing them BC is the best thing for them. You want to make each woman sterile because you hate them. You want them to give themsevles to their hedonistic urges so they are debased to mere sex toys.

But I don't claim that because it would be uncouth.

 

[GoIrish41]

I don't want to control women and I'm getting a little tired of your attempts to apply that narrative . I could just as easily claim you and the rest of the "leftists" want to control women by convincing them BC is the best thing for them. You want to make each woman sterile because you hate them. You want them to give themsevles to their hedonistic urges so they are debased to mere sex toys.

But I don't claim that because it would be uncouth.

I didn't say that you wanted to control women. My comments are aimed at the overall policy positions of the republican party and how they are perceived. This is a thread about the upcoming election, and from that standpoint, I was pointing out how what you are saying would be used by the left against the GOP to garner support from women. Nothing more.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

I didn't say that you wanted to control women. My comments are aimed at the overall policy positions of the republican party and how they are perceived. This is a thread about the upcoming election, and from that standpoint, I was pointing out how what you are saying would be used by the left against the GOP to garner support from women. Nothing more.

Ha ha, oh yes. this is the presidential election thread. I'll allow this to go back on track now. Apologies to everyone who's been trying to keep this on the rails. And to Amtrak. (Too soon?)

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Do you feel the same about chemotherapy for cancer patients? We can't get to the point where everyone is just paying for health care on an al la carte basis, can we? What if we guess wrong when we start our insurance policy at age 25 and indestructible, and when we are 50 we get cancer? Financial ruin? I think a lot of folks are applying their own morality on the medical care of others and if we start doing that, we are all going to be worse for it.

Well, Chemo would most likely be filed under a necessity unlike Birth control pills for a bad case of pizza face.

 

[GoIrish41]

Well, Chemo would most likely be filed under a necessity unlike Birth control pills for a bad case of pizza face.

what about the prevention of ovarian cysts; regulation of menstrual cramps or periods; protection from ovarian and colorectal cancer; reduction of migrains; control of mood swings.

Are any of these a necessity, doc? Because these are among the other non-birth control reasons why doctors prescribe contraceptives.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

what about the prevention of ovarian cysts; regulation of menstrual cramps or periods; protection from ovarian and colorectal cancer; reduction of migrains; control of mood swings.

Are any of these a necessity, doc? Because these are among the other non-birth control reasons why doctors prescribe contraceptives.

We were presented with a few options to help my wife's issues, we opted to try Birth Control pills. Reason? Birth Control. I'm going to get snipped in the fall, so this buys us some time and the option to pull and pray or "forget" and act like i'm in high school again and live on the edge. To be totally honest, it hasn't helped her much, she will most likely will need an oblation.

I haven't said one thing that would even come close to presenting myself as a doctor. I'm looking at this as a tax payer.

I am in no way heartless and expect people to just have issues and choose mass debt or death. Its just like anything else, it has to stop somewhere, we cannot keep giving and giving and giving. we are all going to be broke.

But in regards to those things potential issues you listed. Birth Control is Birth Control first and foremost, now, can it potentially do other things? sure. But those other issues can be handled via more direct means.

 

[GoIrish41]

We were presented with a few options to help my wife's issues, we opted to try Birth Control pills. Reason? Birth Control. I'm going to get snipped in the fall, so this buys us some time and the option to pull and pray or "forget" and act like i'm in high school again and live on the edge. To be totally honest, it hasn't helped her much, she will most likely will need an oblation.

I haven't said one thing that would even come close to presenting myself as a doctor. I'm looking at this as a tax payer.

I am in no way heartless and expect people to just have issues and choose mass debt or death. Its just like anything else, it has to stop somewhere, we cannot keep giving and giving and giving. we are all going to be broke.

But in regards to those things potential issues you listed. Birth Control is Birth Control first and foremost, now, can it potentially do other things? sure. But those other issues can be handled via more direct means.

Lol. Your last sentence is why I said "doc". I'll take things a doctor might say for $200, Alex. Anyway, women should have the right to choose the treatment that suits them just like you and your wife did. Heck, I bet some of those "other means" would cost more than contraceptives and they are probably covered by insurance too. The point is that we could draw the line in many places but it pretty consistently gets drawn by some, with contraceptives. This is not a poke at you but a general observation.

 

[wizards8507]

Lol. Your last sentence is why I said "doc". I'll take things a doctor might say for $200, Alex. Anyway, women should have the right to choose the treatment that suits them just like you and your wife did. Heck, I bet some of those "other means" would cost more than contraceptives and they are probably covered by insurance too. The point is that we could draw the line in many places but it pretty consistently gets drawn by some, with contraceptives. This is not a poke at you but a general observation.

Nobody is trying to block access to those treatments. You act like the only two possibilities are free contraception or banning contraception. Why does it have to be mandatory in every policy? Let those who want to pay for that coverage do so and the same for the insurance companies that want to offer it. The market will work it out.

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[GoIrish41]

Nobody is trying to block access to those treatments. You act like the only two possibilities are free contraception or banning contraception. Why does it have to be mandatory in every policy? Let those who want to pay for that coverage do so and the same for the insurance companies that want to offer it. The market will work it out.

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Who is talking about free contraception? And who is talking about banning it? We are talking about a drug that millions of women take. Women of all ages for varying reasons. At some point in their lifetime more than half of all women will have been prescribed this drug. It is probably one of the most common drugs prescribed in America. Why wouldn't it be covered on every policy. There are thousands of drugs that could be prescribed that you will never use. You are not complaining about them being in your policy. Why this widely used drug and not the others?

 

[wizards8507]

Who is talking about free contraception? And who is talking about banning it? We are talking about a drug that millions of women take. Women of all ages for varying reasons. At some point in their lifetime more than half of all women will have been prescribed this drug. It is probably one of the most common drugs prescribed in America. Why wouldn't it be covered on every policy. There are thousands of drugs that could be prescribed that you will never use. You are not complaining about them being in your policy. Why this widely used drug and not the others?

You're missing the point. I don't care if it's on my policy. But if someone DOES care for religious reasons or they just don't feel like paying for it, they shouldn't have to.

You refuse to recognize any difference between "X is good" and "X should be mandatory."

ETA: As to "who is talking about free contraception," that would be Democrats and the ACA.

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[wizards8507]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/418737/jeb-bush-rand-paul-wrong-about-patriot-act-joel-gehrke

#StandWithRand

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[Black Irish]

I haven't been following the run up to the presidential noms too closely, but does anyone else feel like Jeb Bush is getting really close to having a Teddy Kennedy "Why do you want to be President?" moment with the media? Just pure speculation on my part, by I feel like Jeb is not passionate about this. If so, he's going to get taken to the cleaners by someone like Rubio or Paul who really wants it. That would be fine by me. Policy aside, I don't want someone coasting into the White House. I want someone in there who really wants to do something for this country, not just check off a box of life accomplishments.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I haven't been following the run up to the presidential noms too closely, but does anyone else feel like Jeb Bush is getting really close to having a Teddy Kennedy "Why do you want to be President?" moment with the media? Just pure speculation on my part, by I feel like Jeb is not passionate about this. If so, he's going to get taken to the cleaners by someone like Rubio or Paul who really wants it. That would be fine by me. Policy aside, I don't want someone coasting into the White House. I want someone in there who really wants to do something for this country, not just check off a box of life accomplishments.

I can see that, but Rubio is a paper tiger IMO.

I want someone who agrees that the biggest issue we have in this country isn't the deficit, or terrorism, or entitlements gone awry, etc, but agrees that the biggest issue we have in this country is that Congress cannot pass a bill without the consent of their corporate/union donor daddies.

 

[phgreek]

I can see that, but Rubio is a paper tiger IMO.

I want someone who agrees that the biggest issue we have in this country isn't the deficit, or terrorism, or entitlements gone awry, etc, but agrees that the biggest issue we have in this country is that Congress cannot pass a bill without the consent of their corporate/union donor daddies.

Yea... I fear what it will take to accomplish a clean government...because the type of people we are dealing with here are soulless and entitled, on both sides of the deal.

It really is no longer an issue of a couple bad apples...but rather what do you do when the orchard is bad?

I don't think one POTUS can address this...but I agree it'd be nice for someone to start shining a light on that shit and the POTUS has visibility and press to make some hay...In the end, it will take an angry, outraged, united people standing behind such a POTUS.

 

[Irish YJ]

Yea... I fear what it will take to accomplish a clean government...because the type of people we are dealing with here are soulless and entitled, on both sides of the deal.

It really is no longer an issue of a couple bad apples...but rather what do you do when the orchard is bad?

I don't think one POTUS can address this...but I agree it'd be nice for someone to start shining a light on that shit and the POTUS has visibility and press to make some hay...In the end, it will take an angry, outraged, united people standing behind such a POTUS.

Burn it