Police State USA

[kmoose]

No.

Where do they start, in your mind?

 

[IrishinSyria]

Good article. The first thing one should know about Baltimore is that they essentially turned the inner harbor into a white fortress. They've invested a ton of money in the nicest parts of the city while utterly neglecting areas just a few blocks away. I get the impression that a lot of posters on this site have never really been to west Baltimore.

e. tangentially related:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/30lKGIdOzQY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Irish YJ]

No.

So BB where does personal accountability, and community/family rank in your mind. Not a factor at all?

 

[IrishinSyria]

So BB where does personal accountability, and community/family rank in your mind. Not a factor at all?

Personal accountability is not a political policy. As the article made clear, most of the people protesting were born into a "lord of the flies" type environment. It blows my mind that people have the gall to suggest that the problem with a young man raised in an environment like that is that he just is not sufficiently responsible.

The fact is that blacks in rust belt cities have been hit harder than anyone by macroeconomic and political forces over the past 50 years. The article talks about this: the inner harbor, for example, has been transformed from an engine for the growth of a black middle class to a tourist playground.

I don't think there are any easy solutions, and I certainly agree that the Black community has to be a part of the solution here, it can't all come from government. But it is 100% a cop-out for people to act like the only problem is that people are making bad choices at an individual and family level.

 

[GoIrish41]

No.

Hahahha! Sounds like he missed the point of the article.

 

[kmoose]

Personal accountability is not a political policy. As the article made clear, most of the people protesting were born into a "lord of the flies" type environment. It blows my mind that people have the gall to suggest that the problem with a young man raised in an environment like that is that he just is not sufficiently responsible.

The fact is that blacks in rust belt cities have been hit harder than anyone by macroeconomic and political forces over the past 50 years. The article talks about this: the inner harbor, for example, has been transformed from an engine for the growth of a black middle class to a tourist playground.

I don't think there are any easy solutions, and I certainly agree that the Black community has to be a part of the solution here, it can't all come from government. But it is 100% a cop-out for people to act like the only problem is that people are making bad choices at an individual and family level.

The politicians didn't shutter the businesses that provided a blue collar, middle class existence for blacks in the neighborhood, so what caused the jobs to leave? The City has a fiduciary responsibility to invest tax monies in the economic vehicles that have the greatest chance to succeed. Now, we all know that cities don't always get it right, but you cannot expect cities to invest in high risk low yield projects, just because "they always muck it up, anyway". So the investment in the inner harbor isn't necessarily a racist policy. One would have to look at the proposals that the city bought into, at the time that they invested in them. Plus, urban renewals are often a combination of public and private funds. So it could very well be that the inner harbor was dictated by the private investors? I do think it is a good idea for there to be a concerted effort to attract investment in the neglected neighborhoods just adjacent to the inner harbor area. Then, once those neighborhoods are improved, move on to the adjoining areas again. People are much more likely to invest in a neighborhood that directly borders a popular area. If people are going to have to transit through "the hood" to go from their neighborhood to the nice area, then they are not as likely to invest.

 

[Buster Bluth]

So BB where does personal accountability, and community/family rank in your mind. Not a factor at all?

It's a factor of the current situation, but in the "how they got there" it ranks below this:

From 1934-1968 the federal government refused to back mortgages and lending in black communities via the FHA, HOLC, FHLBB, and other programs in a process known as redlining.

Here's the Baltimore map from 1937. Note where the black people live:

My position is that it's awfully tough to get ahead in a capitalist society when you don't have access to capital.

Whereas not only did they back mortgages for white people, they subsidized 91% of the freeway costs thus creating artificially cheap development opportunities in the suburbs. So the white people and their tax base moved out of the cities and the inner cities crumbled. Note that the FHA refused to back mixed-race suburban developments because they thought it destabilized investments, it's sorta tough to move out of the ghetto when you...can't move out of the ghetto.

It's also worth bringing up that not only were market forces used to isolate blacks in the ghettos, it's a fact that the government often circled these communities with highways to act as a moat, so that you couldn't walk out of the neighborhood is if you tried. They also divided functioning neighborhoods (albeit poor) like this:

Sort tough to have a functioning community when the federal government plops a six-lane freeway right through it. The Columbus examples of this are in Franklinton and Milo-Grogan.

Also please note that when you isolate poverty you make it worse. We learned that the hard way with failed public housing projects designed with ass-backwards modernist designs, check out some articles on Pruitt-Igoe. So we double-fucked school systems by removing the tax base and leaving them the poor kids. The government's response to the disastrous effects of suburbanism which were first-evident, known as Urban Renewal (which is an actual policy and not an overarching term for reinvestment into cities like many people want to scoff) was a disaster. It was mitigation attempt 1.0, and it sucked.

And oh yeah, when the racist housing policies ended in 1968, we started the War on Drugs in 1971. And let's not try to pretend that this isn't fucked up:

At this point I think the destruction of the black family is a chicken-and-the-egg situation. We absolutely crushed black communities before their families ever fell apart. I cringe when I see people speak about personal responsibility and end the discussion there. There is soooooo much more to it to explain how these neighborhoods got to that point.

As I've said on the thread, I don't understand why we don't have a funded outreach campaign with guys like Lebron saying "my number if 23, wait until you're that old to have kids" or shit like that. I am fully on board with realizing it's a huge problem, but my position is that it's the effect of the greater injustice.

 

[kmoose]

My position is that it's awfully tough to get ahead in a capitalist society when you don't have access to capital.

So for 34 years ('34-'68) they did not have access to mortgages in the inner city. But for the last almost 50 years ('68-'15), they have.

People need to stop blaming the war on drugs. The war on drugs has hit the black community particularly hard, but that is only because black gangs turned to dealing drugs as a way of generating quick and easy money. They defended their drug turf with increasingly violent means, using weapons largely financed by the drug profits. So people demanded that the government react, and react strongly. And that included people of color living in the affected areas. The drug sentences were disproportionate for blacks, compared to whites, largely based on aggravating factors such as gang affiliation, trafficking vs. possession, and repeat offenses. These things have certainly played a part in the modern day problems that exist in poor black communities. But I do think that the lack of cohesive family units is a bigger factor.

 

[Buster Bluth]

So for 34 years ('34-'68) they did not have access to mortgages in the inner city. But for the last almost 50 years ('68-'15), they have.

Definitely but the damage was already done. And it's not like after 1968 the school systems suddenly recovered. The '34-'68 FHA/HOLC policy is merely the policy that dropped the bomb on them.

People need to stop blaming the war on drugs.

To deny that it's not a factor is ignorant though. It's important to bring up if only because it's the easiest to fix.

The war on drugs has hit the black community particularly hard, but that is only because black gangs turned to dealing drugs as a way of generating quick and easy money. They defended their drug turf with increasingly violent means, using weapons largely financed by the drug profits.

And why did they turn to drugs to make money? Maybe because they were effectively barred from other economic pursuits... That's one of the main premises on The Wire.

Also to say that's it's "only because black gangs" is silly in light of the racist mandatory minimum sentencing on things like for crack cocaine vs cocaine. Five years mandatory minimum sentence for possession of five grams of crack cocaine. What in the fucking fuck.

80% of cocaine busts are white people, 75% of crack busts are black people. Crack busts gets you the draconian mandatory minimum.

So people demanded that the government react, and react strongly. And that included people of color living in the affected areas.

Yeah, and that government reaction made the problem worse. Now you have a drug problem and people in prison for nonviolent felonies for years and years so you've separated families and rendered the man unemployable for the rest of his life. Something something personal responsibility, I'm sure. But something something doing more harm than good would be my retort.

The drug sentences were disproportionate for blacks, compared to whites, largely based on aggravating factors such as gang affiliation, trafficking vs. possession, and repeat offenses. These things have certainly played a part in the modern day problems that exist in poor black communities.

The fact that you're 3.73x more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession as a black guy says something.

But I do think that the lack of cohesive family units is a bigger factor.

When you take into account how easily government action can solve the problem, criticizing the War on Drugs trumps it any day of the week.

 

[IrishinSyria]

The politicians didn't shutter the businesses that provided a blue collar, middle class existence for blacks in the neighborhood, so what caused the jobs to leave? The City has a fiduciary responsibility to invest tax monies in the economic vehicles that have the greatest chance to succeed. Now, we all know that cities don't always get it right, but you cannot expect cities to invest in high risk low yield projects, just because "they always muck it up, anyway". So the investment in the inner harbor isn't necessarily a racist policy. One would have to look at the proposals that the city bought into, at the time that they invested in them. Plus, urban renewals are often a combination of public and private funds. So it could very well be that the inner harbor was dictated by the private investors? I do think it is a good idea for there to be a concerted effort to attract investment in the neglected neighborhoods just adjacent to the inner harbor area. Then, once those neighborhoods are improved, move on to the adjoining areas again. People are much more likely to invest in a neighborhood that directly borders a popular area. If people are going to have to transit through "the hood" to go from their neighborhood to the nice area, then they are not as likely to invest.

I agree that the policies themselves weren't passed by racists (at least, it's not a per se thing). But just like it would be disingenuous for liberals to claim that family structure isn't an issue, it's important to recognize the macroeconomic factors at play too.

I also agree that it makes sense to "invest out" from the inner harbor. That being said, as money comes in, it will only serve to exacerbate the economic disparities in the city, at least during the long transitional period.

My point is more that the personal responsibility theory doesn't take any of these forces into account. Buster's post was masterful, so I defer to him, just want to point out that blaming individuals is a recipe for maintaining and exacerbating the status quo.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Personal accountability is not a political policy. As the article made clear, most of the people protesting were born into a "lord of the flies" type environment. It blows my mind that people have the gall to suggest that the problem with a young man raised in an environment like that is that he just is not sufficiently responsible.

The CNN article mentions the city closing parks, libraries, recreation centers, etc. The main reason for this is that the population of Baltimore when Mr. Blake was growing up was about 900,000 and is today about 622,000. It is impossible to keep the same number of public facilities open when the tax base is much smaller. As to the claim that this has increased crime, the crime rate in Baltimore was increasing during the late 1970s, and then paused, before increasing again in the late 1980s. This is correlated with demographic changes in Baltimore during that time (mainly, whites leaving). The absolute number of crimes probably continued to increase from 1981-1987, even though the rate plateaued, because the population was decreasing.

Mr. Blake also mentions "lagging" public school spending. Baltimore spends over $15,000 per student per year in its schools. Catholic schools typically charge less than that and produce better results. So I don't think money is the problem.

Baltimore's unemployment rate is certainly higher than the country as a whole, but blacks are already more likely to be publicly employed than whites.

Finally, for those using the war on drugs argument: which drugs are you proposing we decriminalize/legalize? Just marijuana? Cocaine? Other drugs? A bunch of states have decriminalized marijuana, so presumably we would expect to see black incarceration decrease in states where it has been legal. Marijuana has been decriminalized in Massachusetts since 2009. Prior to 2009, 28-29% of Massachusetts prisoners were black. In 2013, it was 27.7%. Even if that is attributable to decriminalization, rather than random variation, it is hardly a dent in the overall numbers. Also, enough of this idea that the war on drugs was launched in order to imprison blacks. This claim is essentially ahistorical.

 

[GoIrish41]

It's a factor of the current situation, but in the "how they got there" it ranks below this:

From 1934-1968 the federal government refused to back mortgages and lending in black communities via the FHA, HOLC, FHLBB, and other programs in a process known as redlining.

Here's the Baltimore map from 1937. Note where the black people live:

My position is that it's awfully tough to get ahead in a capitalist society when you don't have access to capital.

Whereas not only did they back mortgages for white people, they subsidized 91% of the freeway costs thus creating artificially cheap development opportunities in the suburbs. So the white people and their tax base moved out of the cities and the inner cities crumbled. Note that the FHA refused to back mixed-race suburban developments because they thought it destabilized investments, it's sorta tough to move out of the ghetto when you...can't move out of the ghetto.

It's also worth bringing up that not only were market forces used to isolate blacks in the ghettos, it's a fact that the government often circled these communities with highways to act as a moat, so that you couldn't walk out of the neighborhood is if you tried. They also divided functioning neighborhoods (albeit poor) like this:

Sort tough to have a functioning community when the federal government plops a six-lane freeway right through it. The Columbus examples of this are in Franklinton and Milo-Grogan.

Also please note that when you isolate poverty you make it worse. We learned that the hard way with failed public housing projects designed with ass-backwards modernist designs, check out some articles on Pruitt-Igoe. So we double-fucked school systems by removing the tax base and leaving them the poor kids. The government's response to the disastrous effects of suburbanism which were first-evident, known as Urban Renewal (which is an actual policy and not an overarching term for reinvestment into cities like many people want to scoff) was a disaster. It was mitigation attempt 1.0, and it sucked.

And oh yeah, when the racist housing policies ended in 1968, we started the War on Drugs in 1971. And let's not try to pretend that this isn't fucked up:

At this point I think the destruction of the black family is a chicken-and-the-egg situation. We absolutely crushed black communities before their families ever fell apart. I cringe when I see people speak about personal responsibility and end the discussion there. There is soooooo much more to it to explain how these neighborhoods got to that point.

As I've said on the thread, I don't understand why we don't have a funded outreach campaign with guys like Lebron saying "my number if 23, wait until you're that old to have kids" or shit like that. I am fully on board with realizing it's a huge problem, but my position is that it's the effect of the greater injustice.

Amazing post!!!!

 

[Irish YJ]

bolded below. BB I agree on impact, history, but disagree with limiting accountability, or the impact of diminished family unit (it's hurting everyone, regardless of color)..

It's a factor of the current situation, but in the "how they got there" it ranks below this:

OK, so you agree it's a factor. So where does personal accountability stop/start, and historical disadvantage stop/start?

BTW, I agree this explains lot, but I don't give folks a pass for doing bad when they know it's bad.

From 1934-1968 the federal government refused to back mortgages and lending in black communities via the FHA, HOLC, FHLBB, and other programs in a process known as redlining.

Has this improved since 1968?
Here's the Baltimore map from 1937. Note where the black people live:

My position is that it's awfully tough to get ahead in a capitalist society when you don't have access to capital.

Whereas not only did they back mortgages for white people, they subsidized 91% of the freeway costs thus creating artificially cheap development opportunities in the suburbs. So the white people and their tax base moved out of the cities and the inner cities crumbled. Note that the FHA refused to back mixed-race suburban developments because they thought it destabilized investments, it's sorta tough to move out of the ghetto when you...can't move out of the ghetto.

It's also worth bringing up that not only were market forces used to isolate blacks in the ghettos, it's a fact that the government often circled these communities with highways to act as a moat, so that you couldn't walk out of the neighborhood is if you tried. They also divided functioning neighborhoods (albeit poor) like this:

I'm sure $$ had a lot to do with it (easier to build through poor neighborhoods), but not necessarily race. I grew up poor and twice had highways pop up through my hood.

Sort tough to have a functioning community when the federal government plops a six-lane freeway right through it.

Ours stayed functional

Also please note that when you isolate poverty you make it worse. We learned that the hard way with failed public housing projects designed with ass-backwards modernist designs, check out some articles on Pruitt-Igoe. So we double-fucked school systems by removing the tax base and leaving them the poor kids. The government's response to the disastrous effects of suburbanism which were first-evident, known as Urban Renewal (which is an actual policy and not an overarching term for reinvestment into cities like many people want to scoff) was a disaster. It was mitigation attempt 1.0, and it sucked.

I grew up down the street from the projects in south central indy. My grandparents raised 10 kids there. My parents, and several others struggled and sacrificed to keep me out of public schools that were horrible. They also worked hard to be able to move out of that neighborhood. Are my parents bad people because they wanted to escape to the burbs and put me in a private school because their parents neighborhood went to hell (both white and black violence). I'm sure you'll say no, but doesn't it perpetuate the removal of tax base?

And oh yeah, when the racist housing policies ended in 1968, we started the War on Drugs in 1971. And let's not try to pretend that this isn't fucked up:

Are these numbers just USERS, or ones in jail due to selling, violence, etc.. Not being a smart @ss, honest question. It's two very different things.

At this point I think the destruction of the black family is a chicken-and-the-egg situation.

Agree on the chicken/egg thing. So is I say, yes, lets go all in with tax dollars to help this..... when does government aid and rationalization stop, and accountability begin? 10 years, 50 years, 100 years?

We absolutely crushed black communities before their families ever fell apart. I cringe when I see people speak about personal responsibility and end the discussion there.

I don't end the discussion their, but at some point, every thing is a choice. Doesn't matter what color you are. There is no magic wand or silver bullet to erase the last XX years. While it may be easier for some to follow the law, it's still the law. There is no degree to which the law is followed.

There is soooooo much more to it to explain how these neighborhoods got to that point.

As I've said on the thread, I don't understand why we don't have a funded outreach campaign with guys like Lebron saying "my number if 23, wait until you're that old to have kids" or shit like that.

I wish more successful folks would do more in clear view. So many bad role models, not enough good.

I am fully on board with realizing it's a huge problem, but my position is that it's the effect of the greater injustice.

 

[Redbar]

A really enlightening series of post here today.

 

[pkt77242]

It wouldn't. What good is a degree if there are no jobs to be had? The Middle Class has all but disappeared in the US because of the death of manufacturing. While technology jobs have helped bridge the gap, they have not been a satisfactory replacement. You only need so many cable/satellite installers. If a guy has an Electronics Engineering Degree, it isn't going to do him any good if there are only so many new cable/satellite installations to go around. But I'm sure these people will be able to find some camaraderie in their Occupy camp(s).



The Republicans are making proposals as well. The problem is that people vilify the GOP proposals as "corporate welfare", and accuse the GOP of trying to help the rich get richer. Strong companies build jobs. What is not a problem of either Party, but of both, is that government has to stop rewarding political donations with cash subsidies for businesses like Solyndra.



It's not, and it's a ridiculous stance. But I think that most who have voiced it were not really serious about it, and were just letting off some steam.



I absolutely agree with this. Obama has been in office for 7 years now. How come we aren't seeing results from this program? There *is* a program, isn't there? Wasn't one of his campaign promises to start to fix the infrastructure issues in the country?



That may be true of many, but we also know that many spend it on frivolous stuff like marijuana and meth.

define many. It is probably less than you think.

 

[irishff1014]

Hey goirish41 what's your take on the 3 MONORITY police officers charged in this case?

Since you made this a race debate!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Hey goirish41 what's your take on the 3 MONORITY police officers charged in this case?

Since you made this a race debate!

I take it you mean minority. It happens everywhere. In the pre-Civil War South, back through Roman times (Gladiators), to the Ancient Greeks. Those groups with power can turn those without against themselves every time!

In Ireland?

The Royal Ulster Constabulary had a leader Chief Herndon, who was Catholic, and the Ulster Defense Force had a leader, Tommy Herron, and its chief lobbyist in the US was the Catholic husband of the President of the Catholic, Immaculata University.

And Jews working with the SS?

A kapo or prisoner functionary (German: Funktionshäftling, see section Etymology) was a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp who was assigned by the SS guards to supervise forced labor or carry out administrative tasks in the camp. Also called "prisoner self-administration", the prisoner functionary system minimized costs by allowing camps to function with fewer SS personnel. The system was designed to turn victim against victim, as the prisoner functionaries were pitted against their fellow prisoners in order to maintain the favor of their SS guards.

The situation in Baltimore was clear. One was the driver of the van; and he has an interesting track record. Two others were officers that were brought in on the route to inspect the prisoner or provide support. Neither of these opened their mouths. I would like to know why; were they afraid of loosing their jobs or risking the ire of fellow officers?

Of the other three involved, two were newer officers. The other "white" officer was a lieutenant who has had a disturbing history of mental illness that has resulted in his forced hospitalization within the last three years.

So let's all try to deconstruct this! Maybe we can score points for our agenda, based upon a very complex cluster-fuck of a situation!

Or maybe we can just sit back and agree that everything on every side of this situation screams of a lack of structure, control, supervision, or support.

define many. It is probably less than you think.

I agree! This is a numbers game (presenting any agenda as a simplistic solution to a complex problem)!

From the statistics thrown around like rice at a wedding, to the numbers of black men, (dozens, in a population of 622,000!) Read what you want into it. But the problem will not go away until it is addressed honestly, and great effort is put in to enacting a meaningful solution.

 

[kmoose]

... the problem will not go away until it is addressed honestly, and great effort is put in to enacting a meaningful solution.

So what's the solution? It sure sounds like, according to some, if we just exterminate all of the white people then things will be downright Utopian?

 

[GoIrish41]

Hey goirish41 what's your take on the 3 MONORITY police officers charged in this case?

Since you made this a race debate!

You flatter me with the immense amount of power and influence you must think I have to transform this into a race debate. What percentage of the protestors do you think were African Americans? 95? 98%? Virtually all of them were black. It makes no difference that individuals who were involved in this incident were black. The system is stacked against blacks and always has been. Go back and read Buster's post on the historic treatment of the black community in Baltimore and let me know how I, personally, affected events that happened before I was born. Whether you want this to be about race or not, it is.

But to answer your question. EVERYONE who participated in the mistreatment of Freddy Gray ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Period.

 

[irishff1014]

NYPD officer, 25, shot in Queens dies from his injuries | New York's PIX11 / WPIX-TV

R.I.P

 

[goldandblue]

I take it you mean minority. It happens everywhere. In the pre-Civil War South, back through Roman times (Gladiators), to the Ancient Greeks. Those groups with power can turn those without against themselves every time!

So you are really going to compare the current social environment of black people in the United States today with that of the pre Civil War South and the Roman empire that fell around 600 AD?

Jews working in the SS??? During the control of one of the most infamous tyrants ever?? During a war??

Last time I checked, we have a black or at least partially black man as the President of the United States... But this is such a racist and hate filled country.

Give me a f'ing break man....

 

[Bishop2b5]

» Race, Politics and Lies » Commentary -- GOPUSA

Race, Politics and Lies

Among the many painful ironies in the current racial turmoil is that communities scattered across the country were disrupted by riots and looting because of the demonstrable lie that Michael Brown was shot in the back by a white policeman in Missouri -- but there was not nearly as much turmoil created by the demonstrable fact that a fleeing black man was shot dead by a white policeman in South Carolina.

Totally ignored was the fact that a black policeman in Alabama fatally shot an unarmed white teenager, and was cleared of any charges, at about the same time that a white policeman was cleared of charges in the fatal shooting of Michael Brown.

In a world where the truth means so little, and headstrong preconceptions seem to be all that matter, what hope is there for rational words or rational behavior, much less mutual understanding across racial lines?

When the recorded fatal shooting of a fleeing man in South Carolina brought instant condemnation by whites and blacks alike, and by the most conservative as well as the most liberal commentators, that moment of mutual understanding was very fleeting, as if mutual understanding were something to be avoided, as a threat to a vision of "us against them" that was more popular.

That vision is nowhere more clearly expressed than in attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a "legacy of slavery" in particular. Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.

The "legacy of slavery" argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.

Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.

You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.

We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact -- for those who still have some respect for facts -- black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.

Murder rates among black males were going down -- repeat, DOWN -- during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before. Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families.

Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States. The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period. Just read "Life at the Bottom," by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.

You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization -- including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain -- without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.

Non-judgmental subsidies of counterproductive lifestyles are treating people as if they were livestock, to be fed and tended by others in a welfare state -- and yet expecting them to develop as human beings have developed when facing the challenges of life themselves.

One key fact that keeps getting ignored is that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits every year since 1994. Behavior matters and facts matter, more than the prevailing social visions or political empires built on those visions.

 

[connor_in]

Police charges in Freddie Gray case are incompetent at best
by Page Croyder

In the long run, Ms. Mosby may be undermining the cause of justice rather than promoting it. She has created an expectation of guilt and conviction. If that does not happen, many will blame the system as unfair or unjust, when it may have been Ms. Mosby's own lack of competence and/or arrogance in bringing charges so quickly.

And she has created a new expectation in the city: that police officers who arrest without what she considers to be probable cause (a subjective standard) are subject not just to civil action (the current norm) but criminal action. Mere mistakes, or judgments exercised under duress, can land them in the pokey.

If I were a Baltimore police officer, I'd be looking for another job immediately. And as a Baltimore citizen, I may start looking for someplace else to live. When the police cannot depend upon the state's attorney to be as thorough, competent, non-political and fair with them as she is supposed to be with all citizens, none of us will be safe.

Page Croyder spent 21 years in the Baltimore state's attorneys office, most recently as a deputy state's attorney.

 

[irishff1014]

NYPD officer who was shot in head dies - CNN.com

Good job New York Mets.

 

[Circa]

It's a factor of the current situation, but in the "how they got there" it ranks below this:

From 1934-1968 the federal government refused to back mortgages and lending in black communities via the FHA, HOLC, FHLBB, and other programs in a process known as redlining.

Here's the Baltimore map from 1937. Note where the black people live:

My position is that it's awfully tough to get ahead in a capitalist society when you don't have access to capital.

Whereas not only did they back mortgages for white people, they subsidized 91% of the freeway costs thus creating artificially cheap development opportunities in the suburbs. So the white people and their tax base moved out of the cities and the inner cities crumbled. Note that the FHA refused to back mixed-race suburban developments because they thought it destabilized investments, it's sorta tough to move out of the ghetto when you...can't move out of the ghetto.

It's also worth bringing up that not only were market forces used to isolate blacks in the ghettos, it's a fact that the government often circled these communities with highways to act as a moat, so that you couldn't walk out of the neighborhood is if you tried. They also divided functioning neighborhoods (albeit poor) like this:

Sort tough to have a functioning community when the federal government plops a six-lane freeway right through it. The Columbus examples of this are in Franklinton and Milo-Grogan.

Also please note that when you isolate poverty you make it worse. We learned that the hard way with failed public housing projects designed with ass-backwards modernist designs, check out some articles on Pruitt-Igoe. So we double-fucked school systems by removing the tax base and leaving them the poor kids. The government's response to the disastrous effects of suburbanism which were first-evident, known as Urban Renewal (which is an actual policy and not an overarching term for reinvestment into cities like many people want to scoff) was a disaster. It was mitigation attempt 1.0, and it sucked.

And oh yeah, when the racist housing policies ended in 1968, we started the War on Drugs in 1971. And let's not try to pretend that this isn't fucked up:

At this point I think the destruction of the black family is a chicken-and-the-egg situation. We absolutely crushed black communities before their families ever fell apart. I cringe when I see people speak about personal responsibility and end the discussion there. There is soooooo much more to it to explain how these neighborhoods got to that point.

As I've said on the thread, I don't understand why we don't have a funded outreach campaign with guys like Lebron saying "my number if 23, wait until you're that old to have kids" or shit like that. I am fully on board with realizing it's a huge problem, but my position is that it's the effect of the greater injustice.

'The Wire'

I moved them off the corners.
Goddamnit, don't be coy with me, Major.
I can see that.
What I want to know is how the fuck you managed to move them and where the fuck they are now.
Deputy I don't know quite how to put this, but we I mean, I I began by identifying those areas of my district where drug trafficking was least harmful I proceeded to push all street-level dealing towards those areas.
Now at first dealing with the juveniles on them corners, had little success.
But ultimately by rounding up all the mid-level dealers in my district and making an offer they couldn't refuse - I was able to - You made them an offer? Yes, sir.
Either they move their people to one of three designated areas where drug enforcement was not a district priority or they face the wrath of every able-bodied soul in my district.
Major, I don't understand.
The only time we can hold a drug corner is when we assign officers to stand there.
Your slides don't suggest any concerted deployment on any corners.
How were you able to Jesus christ, you nit, don't you see what he's done.
He's legalized drugs! Actually, I elected to ignore them.
You lost your fucking mind.
He's lost his fucking mind.
The Wire 310 Episode Script | SS

 

[Irish YJ]

'The Wire'

I moved them off the corners.
Goddamnit, don't be coy with me, Major.
I can see that.
What I want to know is how the fuck you managed to move them and where the fuck they are now.
Deputy I don't know quite how to put this, but we I mean, I I began by identifying those areas of my district where drug trafficking was least harmful I proceeded to push all street-level dealing towards those areas.
Now at first dealing with the juveniles on them corners, had little success.
But ultimately by rounding up all the mid-level dealers in my district and making an offer they couldn't refuse - I was able to - You made them an offer? Yes, sir.
Either they move their people to one of three designated areas where drug enforcement was not a district priority or they face the wrath of every able-bodied soul in my district.
Major, I don't understand.
The only time we can hold a drug corner is when we assign officers to stand there.
Your slides don't suggest any concerted deployment on any corners.
How were you able to Jesus christ, you nit, don't you see what he's done.
He's legalized drugs! Actually, I elected to ignore them.
You lost your fucking mind.
He's lost his fucking mind.
The Wire 310 Episode Script | SS

Morale of the story, cops on every corner?

 

[Circa]

Morale of the story, cops on every corner?

Funny stuuff here. Watch 'The Wire' take 2 aspirins annd get back to me.

 

[Irish YJ]

Funny stuuff here. Watch 'The Wire' take 2 aspirins annd get back to me.

One of my favorite shows

 

[IrishinSyria]

Illegal drugs: The wars don’t work | The Economist

 

[Bogtrotter07]

So you are really going to compare the current social environment of black people in the United States today with that of the pre Civil War South and the Roman empire that fell around 600 AD?

Jews working in the SS??? During the control of one of the most infamous tyrants ever?? During a war??

Last time I checked, we have a black or at least partially black man as the President of the United States... But this is such a racist and hate filled country.

Give me a f'ing break man....

Actually, I think you need a break.

Such a gross misinterpretation of my post, indicates rest and relaxation should be first on your schedule.

No, I am not making a comparison of the times! What a quaint thing to do! What I am trying to do is make a commentary on human behavior, (irrespective of the time and place.)

Like this : Here is an experiment that anyone with a bit of imagination can do, even if making up for a deficit in intelligence.

Picture yourself still as a white man. Only now there are many more black men than whites. And they have been in control for centuries. And more whites than blacks are in the ranks of the poverty locked and uneducated. Yesterday you couldn't apply for the minimum wage job that was your ticket out, because you didn't have the bus fare to get to the job location and apply. And that is the beginning of the problem. Chances are your reading and writing is a fraction of what your black counterparts is. Wouldn't you jump at the chance to put on a black face and separate yourself from the other poor whites? And wouldn't your desperation be the limit to how far you would go?

So what's the solution? It sure sounds like, according to some, if we just exterminate all of the white people then things will be downright Utopian?

I think this is as contrary to everything I have ever said as possible. If I didn't know you better Moose, I would say you were being a bit disingenuous. If it is a misunderstanding, then I think my point is that there is no easy answer. That the kind of transcendent thinking and action required to solve a problem like this once and for all requires a shift in human behavior. And unfortunately, genocide is not a shift in human behavior!

Postscript : In looking back at the sum total of recent posts, this thread has become all about defending positions, sometimes indefensible. And that would be a behavioral trait I would think need be changed first. So without anything new to add to this case, (so as to avoid conflation with another case, or illogic derived from swaying far enough off topic, I will stop posting until someone adds something new. As I see it many posters points still stand, and the reactionary element hasn't even scored. I learned a lot from some of you, thanks for the info. Others, that want to keep doing the same things over again, expecting the results to turn out differently, good luck!