Israeli ground invasion of Gaza-What a day!!

itchyBEAR

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It is not as rare as you think. Israel is a fascist regime. Did you know that Israel has put the people of Gaza "on a diet?" Have you ever heard of "mowing the grass?"

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Occupation Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a speech to Jewish squatters New York Times April 1, 1988.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party

In his speech, Netanyahu referred to the cuts in child pensions, saying that since they were implemented “two positive things happened: members of the Haredi public seriously joined the workforce. And on the national level, the unexpected result was the demographic effect on the non-Jewish public, where there was a dramatic drop in the birth rate.”

"If there is a demographic problem, and there is, it is with the Israeli Arabs who will remain Israeli citizens." Netanyahu

I'm sure you noticed that these quotes by Israel's leader are sequentially ordered by year showing that this is nothing new and not uncommon.

And here is a piece from an interview concerning those riots from Democracy Now since my sources aren't reputable enough.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Let’s start in Haifa. I want to start by asking you, Rann Bar-On, what happened in this peace demonstration?

RANN BAR-ON: Hi, Amy. We were about three or four hundred left-wing activists demonstrating against the war, for peace between Arabs and Jews, refusing to be enemies. As we arrived, my partner and I saw well over a thousand activists from—militant activists from the right, surrounded by police and others, screaming, "Death to Arabs! Death to leftists!" As we were protesting, they moved towards us. The police allowed them to move towards us. The police allowed them to attack us, to throw stones at us. Later on, as we were trying to leave, the police took—the police did not attempt to allow us to leave. They took over an hour to evacuate us while we were under heavy attack by stones and other missiles. Many were injured. We’ve had over 30 injured. Two women are still in hospital. There were gangs roaming the streets, beating up anyone they thought was an Arab or member of our demonstration. The police were—

AMY GOODMAN: Rann Bar-On, can you explain why you went out into the streets to protest?

RANN BAR-ON: Absolutely. I believe that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a racist attack. It is not self-defense in any way. And it is a continuation of Israeli policy that has always discriminated against the Arab population. What happened to us at the protest is not new. This is something that is a trend that has been continuing for many years. There has been much incitement from the political class that has allowed even so-called moderate right-wingers to join cries saying, "Death to Arabs! Death to leftists!" and attacking activists and Arabs in the street.

good pull on those quotes. given the inclination, could you not find equally offensive quotes from Palestinian/ hamas leaders?

I understand you are not a fan of the state of Israel (sounds like you rank their likability somewhere between USC and Satin himself), but what is your solution? what do you want to see happen other than for everyone who cares about ND football to despise Jews? seriously, what ends will satisfy you?
 

NDFAN420

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They blame the victims. This is what another infamous Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir had to say after another massacre in Palestine. “We cannot forgive the Arabs for forcing us to kill their children...”

This is an almost perfect, classic encyclopedic example of the characteristics of an Abuser to his/her victims.
 

AvesEvo

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good pull on those quotes. given the inclination, could you not find equally offensive quotes from Palestinian/ hamas leaders?

I understand you are not a fan of the state of Israel (sounds like you rank their likability somewhere between USC and Satin himself), but what is your solution? what do you want to see happen other than for everyone who cares about ND football to despise Jews? seriously, what ends will satisfy you?

You're right, but Hamas is not the 4th or 5th most powerful military in the world.
 

kmoose

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OK. I keep hearing about how Israel has to abandon its occupation of the West Bank, in order to provide peace in Gaza. So here is my question: If the occupation of the West Bank is such an issue, then why is all of the violence going on in Gaza? Why aren't the Palestinians in the West Bank lobbing rockets all over the place?
 

MJ12666

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They blame the victims. This is what another infamous Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir had to say after another massacre in Palestine. “We cannot forgive the Arabs for forcing us to kill their children...”

This is an almost perfect, classic encyclopedic example of the characteristics of an Abuser to his/her victims.

Actually they are not blaming the victims but rather Hamas for maintaining military equipment (rockets and other explosives) and personal intermingled with the civilian population. This action is obviously an attempt to dissuade Israel from attacking and for propaganda purposes. Needless to say, Hamas is quite an organization.
 

Whiskeyjack

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AmCon's Scott McConnell just published an article titled "What Gaza Has Revealed":

Throughout the 1950s and 1960s and continuing through the present, the central issue in the study of European history was the rise of Nazism. Not the documenting of the facts of the long descent to the Holocaust, though this was essential to the enterprise. But the trying to understand how a country that was in many ways the most advanced in Europe could descend so far so fast. Scholars examined German patterns of leadership and conformity, searched in the varied forms of cultural nationalism for the ideological and literary precursors of Nazism, analyzed the “wholeness hunger” that purportedly led young Germans to do everything from embracing nature to embracing a fuhrer, and studied the moral cowardice exhibited by German civic elites in nearly every profession.

In the memoirs of many German Jews who escaped Hitlerism when they still could, this descent was wrapped in enigma: Hitler and Nazis were so unexpected, so contrary to their internalized sense of Germany as a nation of law and science, and a place where there was considerable intermarriage between Jews and Christians, where Jews—as much or even more so than any other country in Europe, felt secure, self-confident, and patriotic. In countless tragic cases, this belief that Nazism was at odds with the “inner, real” Germany led people to wait too long and not emigrate when there was still opportunity to do so. (Of course, that the number of countries welcoming Jewish refugees in the 1930s was limited, in considerable part due to anti-Semitism.) What stands out was the time lag between a new reality—Germany becoming a murderous dictatorship, and the perception of that reality.

Of course one needs to avoid crude polemical comparisons of Nazi Germany, particularly Nazism during the Holocaust era, to anywhere, and such comparisons to Israel are often meant to be gratuitously offensive. Israel is not Nazi Germany.

Nevertheless, with its most recent Gaza war the country has turned a page, exposing Americans and the world to a new and far more fascist Israel than was evident in past decades. One could compile a lengthy list of indicators, few of which have been much explored in the American press but which are fairly widely reported in Israel and on the Internet.

The Israeli peace camp has nearly disappeared—gone for instance are the large mass demonstrations of the 1980s that pushed for an end to the Likud’s forays into Lebanon. Of equal significance is that it no longer safe in Israel to oppose government policy by peaceful demonstration. Several years ago Natan Sharansky, the former Soviet dissident who became an Israeli politician and celebrated neoconservative author posited what he called “the town square test”:

If a person cannot walk into the middle of the town square and express his or her views without fear of arrest, imprisonment, or physical harm, then that person is living in a fear society, not a free society. We cannot rest until every person living in a “fear society” has finally won their freedom.

If one credits the numerous first-person reports from Israeli peace demonstrators, to protest Israeli bombardment of Gaza now is to risk attack by right-wing thugs, while the police look on or sometimes help the pro-government attackers. Meanwhile, Israeli pro-government politicians look for new ways to punish dissenters, either by rendering human right organizations unable to function or by pressuring employers to fire dissenters from their jobs—tactics now described as “white fascism”. Israel hasn’t traversed the entire route of becoming a Sharansky “fear society,” but it is on that trajectory.

And then listen to Israel’s politicians. There is Ayelet Shaked, whose open call for genocide against Palestinians provoked one British-Israeli citizen to contemplate burning her Israeli passport. Shaked was giving political voice to the Israeli mobs that run around Jerusalem shouting “Death to the Arabs” and looking for Palestinians to beat up, though she is after all only one member of Israel’s Parliament. But what is one to make of Moshe Feiglin, not a marginal Israeli figure but deputy speaker of the Knesset, a top player in Israel’s ruling Likud Party? He recently called for Gazans to resettled in concentration camps, and all of Hamas and its supporters to be “annihilated.” All societies have their hate groups and extremists, but nowhere in the democratic world are they nearer to the center of power than Israel. In the 1980s Meir Kahane had a small following in Israel, but his pro-ethnic cleansing party was made illegal. Now Kahanists are in the center of the country’s ruling ideology.

The Israeli turn towards fascism was explored in Max Blumenthal’s superbly reported book Goliath, which the Israel lobby loathed and tried to dismiss without ever answering effectively. Gaza has brought Blumenthal’s ideas to a point, releasing the pent-up animus and anti-democratic hatred for all the world to see.

This now is Israel, a country whose military relishes unfair fights against poorly armed militias, where imposing collective punishment of innocents is the main point, whose elected politicians pine openly for concentration camps and genocide. Because Israel (like the Germany of early last century) is a country of advanced science and medicine, a country containing hundreds of thousands of individuals who would be perceived as exemplary anywhere in the world, there is a kind of cognitive dissonance: we draw back from recognizing the polity before our eyes because it doesn’t match the image of Israel we grew up with (however idealized and unrealistic that may have been). But yes, Feiglin and Shaked represent the real Israel of today.

What are Americans to do about it? Here perception of the new reality lags but is beginning, ever so slowly, to catch up. Many have noted the polls in which older Americans and Republicans still support Israel in overwhelming numbers. The young, more open in their sources of news, do not. Nor do Democrats. Even in conversations with well-heeled members of the business establishment, one also can sense a sea change—one hears murmurs of disapproval, even outrage, expressed in places (an upscale golf club) where one would never before have heard it. Politicians are the last to reflect this: the Senate passed a unanimous vote of approval for Israel early in the conflict, and the House adjourned leaving all manner of pressing business undone, but making sure, by a 395 to 8 vote, that Israel received more funding for its Iron Dome. (Someday a profile in courage article will be written about this Heroic Eight, a surprisingly geographically mixed and bipartisan group.) As if to explain these votes, Vox published an illustrative real-life memo instructing a Senate candidate in how to fish for funds from the “pro-Israel community.” For his part Obama has so submerged himself in Israeli talking points that intelligence blogger Pat Lang felt compelled to ask whether the president had duly registered himself as a foreign agent.

In Europe, it’s much the same—a bit more tut-tutting than here about the killing of Palestinian children, but no government wants to do anything. (And it wouldn’t be so difficult—if Europe were to simply explore bureaucratic “impediments” to Israeli trade and tourism, in the absence of real progress towards a two-state solution, the Palestinians would likely have a state in a couple of years.) Britain is a possible exception: Labour Party chief Ed Miliband has denounced Israel’s conduct uncategorically, and a Muslim minister has resigned from Cameron’s cabinet—not much, but head and shoulders ahead of the United States.

The American polity will change, probably bit by bit for a while and then in a big rush—as a result of political leadership. The evolution of public opinion towards gay marriage seems a plausible template. But even a changed opinion will have to confront a terribly difficult problem: how to treat Israel, hyper-nationalistic, loaded with nuclear weapons, deeply racist, persuaded that any opposition to it is derived from anti-Semitism, feeling that the Holocaust gives it license to do whatever it wants and that the normal rules of international conduct will never apply to it. It won’t be an easy matter to solve.
 

MJ12666

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Public opinion can be fickle and can clearly be swayed by how the media decides to present an issue. For example if the media would emphasis the genocide being committed by Muslims against Christians and other non-Muslims in various parts of the world, or even if the current Administration would discuss this issue, my guess is public opinion would shift toward supporting Israel. Unfortunately for Israel the US media for the most part seems to be anti-Israel.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Public opinion can be fickle and can clearly be swayed by how the media decides to present an issue. For example if the media would emphasis the genocide being committed by Muslims against Christians and other non-Muslims in various parts of the world, or even if the current Administration would discuss this issue, my guess is public opinion would shift toward supporting Israel.

I've been frustrated with the lack of American concern for Iraqi Christians being persecuted by ISIS, but I don't see how Israel is relevant to that in any way. The last thing we need is for our blowhard politicians to start inciting violence against Muslims again.

Unfortunately for Israel the US media for the most part seems to be anti-Israel.

That's a hilariously ironic statement. Can you produce a single example to back this up? Or is merely covering the IDF's offensive in Gaza evidence of anti-Semitism?
 

T Town Tommy

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That's a hilariously ironic statement. Can you produce a single example to back this up? Or is merely covering the IDF's offensive in Gaza evidence of anti-Semitism?

I dunno Whisky. CNN was ridiculous at the start of the offensive but did balance out somewhat as it went along.

MSNBC ... well.

Our President's performance on Christians being persecuted is shameful. Not saying we have to send in the military to stop every crisis, but he could do more than give it the limited lip service he has at this point in his Admin.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Our President's performance on Christians being persecuted is shameful. Not saying we have to send in the military to stop every crisis, but he could do more than give it the limited lip service he has at this point in his Admin.

ISIS exists in large part due to the instability US military adventures in Iraq and Syria created. I assume our politicians and media are hesitant to scrutinize ISIS' handiwork because doing so would require admitting: (1) that the Iraq War was a massive mistake; and (2) that we're morally complicit in a lot of the suffering and death that's proliferated in our wake.
 

T Town Tommy

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ISIS exists in large part due to the instability US military adventures in Iraq and Syria created. I assume our politicians and media are hesitant to scrutinize ISIS' handiwork because doing so would require admitting: (1) that the Iraq War was a massive mistake; and (2) that we're morally complicit in a lot of the suffering and death that's proliferated in our wake.

Obama missed his chance on Syria when he sat on his hands early on. Much like he missed his chance in Iraq by pulling out of the country too soon - and by pulling out he just walked away. Much like Libya. Much like soon to be Afghanistan. His gross negligence on foreign affairs has basically eroded any influence we had in the region. I wish he would walk away - before we lose what little influence we have left in the world.
 
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Obama missed his chance on Syria when he sat on his hands early on. Much like he missed his chance in Iraq by pulling out of the country too soon - and by pulling out he just walked away. Much like Libya. Much like soon to be Afghanistan. His gross negligence on foreign affairs has basically eroded any influence we had in the region. I wish he would walk away - before we lose what little influence we have left in the world.

We sent over a million conscripted Americans into southeast Asia to influence the politics of the region. Where did that get us? To influence, as you suggest, the politics of nations such as Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, would require a presence of numbers far greater than our present voluntary Army can provide. It would be debilitating to their strength and morale. Are you suggesting a return to the system of military conscription, in order to provide the manpower to influence affairs in the middle east? I am with you there. We need , and could effectively use, far more sons(and daughters) of doctors, attorneys, Wall Street investment bankers, and politicians in the American military. And, who better to serve and to protect, as military conscripts, than graduates of Notre Dame University, itself! The progeny of suburban Catholics have it far too easy in this world! Why, many Irish Envy posters are avid gun enthusiasts. Where better to put that gun moxie to use than the Arab side streets of the Middle East!
 

T Town Tommy

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We sent over a million conscripted Americans into southeast Asia to influence the politics of the region. Where did that get us? To influence, as you suggest, the politics of nations such as Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, would require a presence of numbers far greater than our present voluntary Army can provide. It would be debilitating to their strength and morale. Are you suggesting a return to the system of military conscription, in order to provide the manpower to influence affairs in the middle east? I am with you there. We need , and could effectively use, far more sons(and daughters) of doctors, attorneys, Wall Street investment bankers, and politicians in the American military. And, who better to serve and to protect, as military conscripts, than graduates of Notre Dame University, itself! The progeny of suburban Catholics have it far too easy in this world! Why, many Irish Envy posters are avid gun enthusiasts. Where better to put that gun moxie to use than the Arab side streets of the Middle East!

A coherent foreign policy from our President would be the start. As always, military intervention anywhere should be considered a last resort. I would simply be satisfied if Obama acted Presidential instead of apologetic. But it has become painfully obvious that one can not be a community organizer and be expected to know how to develop anything that resembles foreign policy.
 

MJ12666

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I've been frustrated with the lack of American concern for Iraqi Christians being persecuted by ISIS, but I don't see how Israel is relevant to that in any way. The last thing we need is for our blowhard politicians to start inciting violence against Muslims again.



That's a hilariously ironic statement. Can you produce a single example to back this up? Or is merely covering the IDF's offensive in Gaza evidence of anti-Semitism?

Sorry for not responding sooner but I needed to eat dinner.

First I was not making a direct correlation between ISIS and the conflict initiated by Hamas against Israel. I only used this as an example hope public opinion could shift relatively quickly if the situation in Iraq and other Middle East and African countries are covered with a little more vigor.

Regarding point two, how is this for an example. How many pictures of the conflict show Israeli military operations versus Hamas military operations. I have seen virtually no Hamas fighters and fleeting glimpses of Hamas rockets in the air. Yet all we see is injured children without any context that the injured children are the result of Hamas conducting military operations in civilian areas. Then we had the issue of missiles found in a UN school by the UN that the UN gave back to Hamas. This got little or no coverage, almost like it was a non-event.

You know what is really hillareous? How about someone using articles written in Slate and The New Republic as evidence of anything. These are probably the two most liberal publications in America. Your are really going to get accurate unbiased information from them.
 
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A coherent foreign policy from our President would be the start. As always, military intervention anywhere should be considered a last resort. I would simply be satisfied if Obama acted Presidential instead of apologetic. But it has become painfully obvious that one can not be a community organizer and be expected to know how to develop anything that resembles foreign policy.
Be as specific as possible, what should he have done, and when?
 
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Sorry for not responding sooner but I needed to eat dinner.

First I was not making a direct correlation between ISIS and the conflict initiated by Hamas against Israel. I only used this as an example hope public opinion could shift relatively quickly if the situation in Iraq and other Middle East and African countries are covered with a little more vigor.

Regarding point two, how is this for an example. How many pictures of the conflict show Israeli military operations versus Hamas military operations. I have seen virtually no Hamas fighters and fleeting glimpses of Hamas rockets in the air. Yet all we see is injured children without any context that the injured children are the result of Hamas conducting military operations in civilian areas. Then we had the issue of missiles found in a UN school by the UN that the UN gave back to Hamas. This got little or no coverage, almost like it was a non-event.

You know what is really hillareous? How about someone using articles written in Slate and The New Republic as evidence of anything. These are probably the two most liberal publications in America. Your are really going to get accurate unbiased information from them.

Not familiar with Slate, but I have read articles in the New Republic since high school in the sixties. Articles in the New Republic do have there short comings, and I prefer the English publication The Economist - a much better look at America without her makeup on!
 

T Town Tommy

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Be as specific as possible, what should he have done, and when?

Are you suggesting that his foreign policy has been successful? The narratives of Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, Syria, Libya, and to a lesser extent, our allies in Western Europe are well documented. Of course, if you feel he has been effective and has displayed the type of leadership that should be expected of the leader of our country, then why discuss further?
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Are you suggesting that his foreign policy has been successful? The narratives of Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, Syria, Libya, and to a lesser extent, our allies in Western Europe are well documented. Of course, if you feel he has been effective and has displayed the type of leadership that should be expected of the leader of our country, then why discuss further?

Well what would define success? Should we be occupying all of those countries? Why does it count against Obama every time something happens in another country that doesn't favor us? What the hell should we have done in Egypt and Libya? Did you want him to invade Syria?

I loathe Obama. But if there is one aspect of his time as President where I hold off on criticism for the most part, it's foreign policy. Why? Because he's getting the same options from the same guys that briefed the Presidents before him. It's not like he's doing all of this himself. He gets, with quality of intelligence being the variable, the best options before him and the Pentagon walks him through it. Emphasis on the Pentagon walking him, not the other way around.

And since it's well documented, please list for me some truly large fuck ups for which Obama is responsible.
 

MJ12666

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Not familiar with Slate, but I have read articles in the New Republic since high school in the sixties. Articles in the New Republic do have there short comings, and I prefer the English publication The Economist - a much better look at America without her makeup on!

I read pretty much the Economist, Forbes, Fortune and Business Week. I would not waste my time or money regarding Slate or The New Republic after, over the years, hearing what some of their writers views were based on TV appearances.
 

T Town Tommy

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Well what would define success? Should we be occupying all of those countries? Why does it count against Obama every time something happens in another country that doesn't favor us? What the hell should we have done in Egypt and Libya? Did you want him to invade Syria?

I loathe Obama. But if there is one aspect of his time as President where I hold off on criticism for the most part, it's foreign policy. Why? Because he's getting the same options from the same guys that briefed the Presidents before him. It's not like he's doing all of this himself. He gets, with quality of intelligence being the variable, the best options before him and the Pentagon walks him through it. Emphasis on the Pentagon walking him, not the other way around.

And since it's well documented, please list for me some truly large fuck ups for which Obama is responsible.

Libya is a prime example. That's Obama's war. Can't blame that on the prior admin. Dispose of a dictator with not one ounce of planning for once he was gone. Libya is now a disaster area. Terrorists running wild, a governement that is disfunctional, serious weapons falling into the hands of those terrorists, which in turn destabalizes the region even more. We won't even get in to the whole Bengazi ordeal. That's on Obama.

Syria. Red lines? Chemical weapon dismanteling? Yeah... ok.

That's two. Add his inability to get Western Europe to come down hard on Russia, his horrendous leadership dealing with Israel and Hamas, leaving Iraq with no oversight whatsoever of the current regime, turning around and doing the same in Afghanistan, and on and on.

Nobody is suggesting any of these examples are easy fixes. They are not. And Obama inherited a lot of the mess to begin with. But outside of killing Bin Laden (which empowered even more terrorists ) Obama has whiffed on every move. And he has left our country in so big a mess, the next admin - no matter Dem or Repub - will have to try to clean it up. I am not an advocate of military style diplomacy - but Obama has given the meaning of "talk is cheap" a whole other meaning. He is the laughing stock of the international community and they know he is incapable of doing anything right in the foreign policy arena that he is dismissed as an utter failure. And with two more years left, one can only hope it doesn't get any worse. But even his own people are in denail. The most recent press briefing by his press secretary showed that when Josh Earnest claimed Obama was bringing tranquility to the globe. That's incoherent and shameful.
 

AvesEvo

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Israel's Most Liberal City Introduces Racially Segregated Kindergartens - The Daily Beast

Israel's Most Liberal City Introduces Racially Segregated Kindergartens
When the children of south Tel Aviv head back to school on Tuesday, kindergarteners will attend facilities that are segregated by race. The children of asylum seekers from sub-Saharan Africa will go to their kindergartens and all the other kids will go to their own. As of this year, the municipality of Israel's most liberal city decided that separate-but-equal for three-to-six year olds was the way to go—in 2013.

According to a report published by Ynet (Hebrew edition), the city built the new preschools for black children after Jewish-Israeli residents of the inner city area threatened to keep their children at home rather than allow them to learn how to count, fingerpaint and play on the swings alongside their peers from Eritrea and Sudan.
 

ulukinatme

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I've got an idea to solve our border problems and help support our allies/colonies in the Middle East. Any illegal aliens that are found in the country will be put into a military training program and conscripted for 4 years of mandatory military service. Send them over to the Middle East to pacify hostiles and then maintain watch. If a conscripted soldier serves his 4 years, he earns citizenship and can do whatever he wants at that point if he comes back.

Illegal aliens will either take the opportunity, or they may decide they're better off where they're at and they'll no longer want to jump the border.

What do you guys think? Anyone?....[crickets]
 
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