Israeli ground invasion of Gaza-What a day!!

JughedJones

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I remember when I first saw her video. Absolutely shocking.

No need to post the graphic stuff. I wasn't even going to say her name.

I guess I've always decided to use her memory as an example of 'what if it was your daughter?'

If you use pictures and video - even names - it takes away from that. The point is, it was real and it helps people to picture an American blonde girl getting mowed down instead of a dark skinned girl with no country.

It makes me ill.
 

Woneone

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No, what he is saying is that they have been so oppressed and beaten that death would be a relief.

Um. No.

In 2009, senior Hamas activist Abu Bilal al-Ja’abeer proudly recalled that when Israel wanted to target his house, Israeli soldiers first called and told he and his family to flee. Instead, al-Ja’abeer said, “I shut the phone, called some friends who called more people via louspeakers and they all gathered on the roof of the house…”

They're just pawns. I know it doesn't fit your narrative, but it's the truth.
 

ResLife Hero

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Israeli troops uncovered more than a dozen cross-border tunnels as they battle Hamas in 2nd day of ground offensive: <a href="http://t.co/7oFsA8XPYq">http://t.co/7oFsA8XPYq</a></p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/statuses/490496320093052928">July 19, 2014</a></blockquote>
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AvesEvo

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"Herzl's vision of a national solution for European Jews was not original."

"This quasi-national scholastic, but by no means political, revolution was part of an exciting period of unprecedented Jewish cultural revivalism and renaissance. Its practitioners abandoned centuries of religious dogmatism for reason and science in search of solutions for the particular problem of Jewish existence in Europe. These scholars had preceded Herzl in their reinvention of Judaism as the ideology of a nation rather than a religion..."

"Herzl's initial inclination was to recruit the Jewish elite in the West for the Zionist cause. In Poland, Russian and Romania he found wretched, persecuted and underprivileged Jewish communities eagerly awaiting the arrival of a savior..."

"These early immigrants saw themselves as haluzim (pioneers), emulating, or at least borrowing from the reservoir of images common among, the white settlers who drove into the west of North America."

"Their main difficulty was money, so they turned to the richest Jew in Europe, Baron Edmond de Rothschild..."

"The foreign presence in Palestine created island of introverted settlers who viewed the local population as one of the physical hardships they were forced to cope with."

"For the early Zionists, the indigenous people were cheap laborers or producers of cash crops. For the more ideological Zionists, Palestinians were an enigma. They were defined as the shell nee lama, the 'hidden question;, both invisible and a puzzle."

"Herzl believed that Zionism could not succeed without the blessing of a European power. ...he chose the right ally in Britain. It was a logical choice given the recent British interest in the Middle East. ...Herzl succeed in inflaming the British colonialist and evangelist imagination when he offered the British government the opportunity to turn the arid El-Arish, near Gaza, into a Zionist oasis."

"the headquarters of the Zionist movement was in Berlin until the First World War."

"Zionism on the eve of the First World War remained a colonialist project motivated by national emotions. The private land owners wanted a muted version of nationalism; they desired a large Jewish territory but were content with a measured flow of immigrants. This position stemmed from their wish to employ Palestinian, in the preference to Jewish workers, who were more conscious of their rights as laborers. The Palestinian workers did not demand high wages and were better qualified for plantation work."

"Although still fewer than 50,000 people at the time, the Zionists antagonized the population at large, a feeling that found expression in the physical resistance by Palestinians. The settlers defended themselves, and later discovered that military force could be employed to obtain important goals, including non-defensive ones."

"At the start of WWI, the Zionists leadership had quickly tried to persuade the British government that the establishment of a jewish colony in Palestine was a superior British interest."

"On 2 November 1917, Lord Balfour declared British commitment to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine."

"East Europeanism was also at the heart of the construction of a new culture for the settlers. The cultural elite expanded into meaningful proportions in the 1920s, formulating the cultural code, canons, ambitions and pretensions of the Jewish community in Palestine. This community aspired to be an integral part of Western culture and looked for ways of eliminating any Middle Eastern of Arab characteristics in their society."

"Zionist leaders, who regarded segregation as a prerequisite for the creation of an independent Jewish state in Palestine."

"The Jewish leadership in 1942 declared that it would not be satisfied with less than the whole Mandate Palestine as a Jewish state."

"The second, and far more important, objective of the plan was the cleanse the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible. The main military force was the Hagana, which had several brigades. Each brigade received a list of villages it was to occupy. Most of the villages were destined to be destroyed."

"Several massacres were committed near the mixed towns, sometimes in retaliation for Palestinian attacks on Jewish convoys, but quite often they were unmitigated acts of brutality. These atrocities were not randomly committed; they were part of a master plan to rid the future Jewish state of as many Palestinians as possible. Like many master plans throughout history, Plan D was general, and in parts vague. No less important than the plan as the atmosphere created, which paved the way for the ethnic cleansing operation in Palestine. Thus, while the actions of the Hagana were part of a master plan, it had no clear and specific local directives. The plan was executed because the soldiers in the battlefield were orientated by a general attitude from above and motivated by remarks made by the Yishuv's leaders on the need to 'clean' the country. These remarks were translated into acts of depopulation by enthusiastic commanders on the ground, who knew that their actions would be justified in retrospect by the political leadership. By the time the British left in the middle of May, one-third of the Palestinian population had already been evicted (August 31 to May 1940."

Between May 1948 and January 1949, approximately 300 Palestinian villages were destroyed.

"Armed Israeli soldiers surrounded each village on three sides, and put the villagers to flight through the fourth side. In some villages, there were Arab volunteers were resisted by force, and when these villages were conquered they were immediately blown up and destroyed."

Only two of these originally 300 villages remain today, Fureidis and Jisr al-Zarqa.

By May 1948, "Out of 850,000 Palestinians living in the territories designated by the UN as a Jewish state, only 160,000 remained"

"When the government had decided either to turn them (the destroyed villages) into cultivated land or to build new Jewish settlements on their remains. A naming committee granted the new settlements Hebraized versions of the original Arab names... David Ben-Gurion explained that this was done as part of an attempt to prevent future claim to the villages."

"It first created the legal foundations for it anti-repatriation policy, passing legislation in the Knesset in 1950 that allowed the government to go on confiscating Palestinian property and use it for Jewish public purposes. In 1953, the army too was authorized to make use of Palestinian villages and fields. This legislative campaign provided the constitutional basis for the continued depopulation of Palestinian villages in the name of security."

"The continued depopulation was closely connected to Israel's official absorption and settlement policy. The government wished to settle Jewish immigrants on deserted Palestinian land and property as quickly as possible, and as close as possible to the disputed borders. But despite these efforts, the population in some areas adjacent to the borders remained Palestinian, and Israeli security experts feared that this geographical proximity would encourage cross-border cooperation among Palestinians. Though such alliances never materialized, this proximity served as one of the principal justifications, or rather pretext, for the imposition of harsh military rule on these areas."

Ilan Pappe A History of Modern Palestine

I'm tired of typing, but I hope it is clear that what is happening in Palestine is a continuation of the murderous, fascists, fascist, and colonialist Zionist ideology.
 

AvesEvo

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Last night Israeli forces entered Al-Shujaiyya neighborhood of Gaza city and began a large scale killing operations. Residents in this area were trapped in the homes, as jets indiscriminately bombed houses, and IOF ground forces where firing into the neighborhood.

The Red Cross was not given permission to enter the area to collect the dead and wounded until many hours after the massacre started. Ambulances dared to defy Israeli orders to save those severely injured and were shot at by Israeli forces. 1 medic and 1 photographer lost their lives as Israeli forces destroyed their ambulance.

Al Shifa Hospita has become over whelmed with the injured and dead from Al-Shujaiyya. As of the most recent count, 17 children were murdered, over the 50 dead so far, only 10 are resistance fighters. Many more people are said to be laying beneath the rubble of these destroyed buildings. As the residents claimed the streets were flowing with blood last night.


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Fbolt

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This thread has gone beyond my working knowledge and there seems to be an agenda here by AvesEvo.

The whole thing is a crappy.
 

EddytoNow

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This thread has gone beyond my working knowledge and there seems to be an agenda here by AvesEvo.

The whole thing is a crappy.

AvesEvo is just attempting to give us the other side of the story. There are two sides to this conflict and many are content to believe that one side is all good and the other side is all evil. AvesEvo is putting a more complete picture before us, a picture the Israeli lobby would prefer no one knew.
 

BobbyMac

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Hard to feel bad for Muslims when this is the only place on the planet where they aren't the ones dishing it out.

Palestinians need a homeland like I suggested earlier. Hopefully it would shut the local Arabs up for 10 years. It wouldn't, they will never be happy until Israel doesn't exist... and that will be never.

And yes.... Israel definitely has some fascist tendencies. But it amazes me that with the world against them, day to day life there remains somewhat what we would recognize as Americans as normal.

I'm just not willing to throw the Jews under the bus to appease an international coalition of murderers who are terrorizing every other religion (and those inside their own religion who disagree with the local powers) around the world.

.
 
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calvegas04

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Last night Israeli forces entered Al-Shujaiyya neighborhood of Gaza city and began a large scale killing operations. Residents in this area were trapped in the homes, as jets indiscriminately bombed houses, and IOF ground forces where firing into the neighborhood.

The Red Cross was not given permission to enter the area to collect the dead and wounded until many hours after the massacre started. Ambulances dared to defy Israeli orders to save those severely injured and were shot at by Israeli forces. 1 medic and 1 photographer lost their lives as Israeli forces destroyed their ambulance.

Al Shifa Hospita has become over whelmed with the injured and dead from Al-Shujaiyya. As of the most recent count, 17 children were murdered, over the 50 dead so far, only 10 are resistance fighters. Many more people are said to be laying beneath the rubble of these destroyed buildings. As the residents claimed the streets were flowing with blood last night.


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<div class="fb-post" data-href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=699327340144170" data-width="466"><div class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=699327340144170">Post</a> by ‎<a href="https://www.facebook.com/QudsN">شبكة قدس الإخبارية</a>‎.</div></div>

Why would these civilians not leave the war zone? Or are they being kept as human shields?
 

Rizzophil

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Hamas uses women and children as cover. Then, when there is collateral damage, they cry victim.
 

nlroma1o

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K. I won't worry about it then.

So you're too good to go back and read through the thread? You're a disrespectful troll man. You're refusing to answer questions that have been asked of you, and you're just spewing random propaganda. You're not accomishing anything, but confirming to others on the forum that you have zero credibility.
 

Corry

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Why would these civilians not leave the war zone?

I read somewhere, that they can't leave. The countries that surround them won't accept their passports. So you either fly to a country that will accept you, or like Chuck and you be stuck.
 

AvesEvo

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Why would these civilians not leave the war zone? Or are they being kept as human shields?

There is no way to leave. Gaza is literally an open air prison. It isn't uncommon for people in Gaza to be shot, children included, if they get too close to the wall.
 

fightingirish26

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So you're too good to go back and read through the thread? You're a disrespectful troll man. You're refusing to answer questions that have been asked of you, and you're just spewing random propaganda. You're not accomishing anything, but confirming to others on the forum that you have zero credibility.

Dude, relax. He's giving a credible argument, no need to throw a hissy fit.
 

AvesEvo

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So you're too good to go back and read through the thread? You're a disrespectful troll man. You're refusing to answer questions that have been asked of you, and you're just spewing random propaganda. You're not accomishing anything, but confirming to others on the forum that you have zero credibility.

Man, if you want me to address something just tell me what it is. Don't make me reread through the thread.
 

BobbyMac

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Funny how there are more Palestinians living in the US and other western countries than in neighboring Arab states. Their own "brothers" don't want them either.

How come Syria, Jordan or Egypt don't set aside land for their ""brothers"?

Jews haven't been "fair" in how they have treated the Palestinians but they have been no more barbaric than how others have treated them over the centuries.

Bottom line, The Jews won the game and got a nation thanks to the western world.... just like the Arabs won freedom from the Turks in the newly formed Jordan and the rest of the Levant.
It is what it is. Don't think for a second if Arabs would have been given control of present day Israel that they would have been any more tolerant of Jews than Jews are of them. Judging by the actions of other Muslims from western Africa east to the Philippines and their treatment of other religions, The Jews would been an endangered people in the Levant.

.
 

AvesEvo

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Hard to feel bad for Muslims when this is the only place on the planet where they aren't the ones dishing it out.

Palestinians need a homeland like I suggested earlier. Hopefully it would shut the local Arabs up for 10 years. It wouldn't, they will never be happy until Israel doesn't exist... and that will be never.

And yes.... Israel definitely has some fascist tendencies. But it amazes me that with the world against them, day to day life there remains somewhat what we would recognize as Americans as normal.

I'm just not willing to throw the Jews under the bus to appease an international coalition of murderers who are terrorizing every other religion (and those inside their own religion who disagree with the local powers) around the world.

.

It is a mistake to equate Palestinians to Muslims. Now a large percentage of Palestinians may be Muslim, but they are Christian, secular, etc. My ex fiance is Palestinian, her father's family is muslim and her mother's is Christian.

It is also a mistake to say "throw Jews under the bus." It isn't Jews, it is Zionists. There are many Jews that think Israel is an apartheid state.
 

MJ12666

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It is a mistake to equate Palestinians to Muslims. Now a large percentage of Palestinians may be Muslim, but they are Christian, secular, etc. My ex fiance is Palestinian, her father's family is muslim and her mother's is Christian.

It is also a mistake to say "throw Jews under the bus." It isn't Jews, it is Zionists. There are many Jews that think Israel is an apartheid state.

There are also many who believe that Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan and Yemen are apartheid states.
 

Redbar

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Funny how there are more Palestinians living in the US and other western countries than in neighboring Arab states. Their own "brothers" don't want them either.

So they must not be worth anyone's empathy or concern, right?

How come Syria, Jordan or Egypt don't set aside land for their ""brothers"?

So the Good Samaratin rule should only apply within ones own race? religion? culture? region?

Jews haven't been "fair" in how they have treated the Palestinians but they have been no more barbaric than how others have treated them over the centuries.

This is the crux of my disenchantment, they are treating the Palestinians in many of the same ways that they were treated in the Polish ghettos and in Nazi occupied Europe. I thought that type of behavior was bad and should not be tolerated. If anyone should know better it should be them.

Bottom line, The Jews won the game and got a nation thanks to the western world.... just like the Arabs won freedom from the Turks in the newly formed Jordan and the rest of the Levant.
It is what it is. Don't think for a second if Arabs would have been given control of present day Israel that they would have been any more tolerant of Jews than Jews are of them. Judging by the actions of other Muslims from western Africa east to the Philippines and their treatment of other religions, The Jews would been an endangered people in the Levant.

If that is what this is, a game, then the Jews were given the victory, they were given the land, the weaponry, and the training to hold it. They are given millions in aid, we have bankrupted ourselves taking out their enemy in Iraq and they want us to do the same in Iran. What they weren't given they stole from their allies like the US. They have spies and lobbyist that permeate and influence American policy with alarming effectiveness.

Following your logic, Muslims have been brutal everywhere in the world so who cares that they are getting the short end in Palestine. I am not anti any group, I am just opposed to inhumanity whether it is from west Africa, east to the Phillipines, or in Palestine., doesn't matter who is doing it. You don't get a pass because of who you are.
I am in no way anti-Israel, I understand that they are doing what they can to achieve their goals, I am just tired, as an American, of being made to think that their goals are mine.

.

My responses in bold.
 
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MJ12666

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We're talking about Israel .

I thought we were discussing the conflict started by the Palestinians torturing and executing three Jewish youths and firing thousands of missiles into Israel. This conflict includes both Jews and Arabs, correct?
 
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AvesEvo

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I thought we were discussing the conflict started by the Palestinians torturing and executing three Jewish youths and firing thousands of missiles into Israel. This conflict includes both Jews and Arabs, correct?

Again, neither Hamas nor any other Palestinian has claimed ownership of their murders. Netanhayu says Hamas did it, but won't supply the evidence. And yeah, we're talking about the 4th most powerful military in the world vs. some millitants with homemade explosives. They aren't missiles.
 

IrishLax

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It is a mistake to equate Palestinians to Muslims. Now a large percentage of Palestinians may be Muslim, but they are Christian, secular, etc. My ex fiance is Palestinian, her father's family is muslim and her mother's is Christian.

It is also a mistake to say "throw Jews under the bus." It isn't Jews, it is Zionists. There are many Jews that think Israel is an apartheid state.

And there we go. I was wondering what dog you had in this fight.

You've introduced a lot of good facts and information in this thread. At the same time, there is a flip side to the coin that is largely being ignored.

Regardless of how anyone here feels about Israel as a nation and how it was birthed into existence incrementally following WWI to resemble its current state here are some things to consider:
1. After a whole bunch of back and forth and such during and following the world wars you had the Six-Day War where Israel captured Gaza from Egypt.
2. Almost all of the issues today stem from the fact that from 1967 towards the present Israel treated Gaza as an occupied territory. People have introduced "this would be like Mexico..." and that's a poor comparison. It would be like something happening with Puerto Rico or Guam. Egypt and Jordan and a lot of other players have had a disastrous impact on how the Palestinians have been treated in this territorial tug-of-war.
3. There have been many, many efforts to develop a true sovereign Palestinian states and they have all broken down for one reason or another. Most of them center on Palestinian leadership being unrelenting on their demands relative to Jerusalem/land rights.
4. Israel demolished all Israeli settlements in 2005 and moved out giving the Palestinians free reign to establish self-governance. What happened? Hamas took full control by 2007.
5. Hamas is a terrorist organization. How we got to this point is a direct result of Hamas. If starting in 2007 they kept the peace and kept Gaza demilitarized, etc. none of this would be happening. But they didn't.
6. Remember, Israel withdrew from Gaza of their own volition in the 2000s. So Israel as bloodthirsty conquerors doesn't jive with facts.

The legitimate concerns over how Israel operates directly relate to their acceptance of collateral damage. The amount of civilians that perish in their military operations would be intolerable to people in this country and deserves serious revue. But they have the most legitimate claim to the territory of any existing nation stemming from 1967, they left of their own volition and destroyed their settlements (evicting 9000+ Israelis) in 2005, and have been dealing with a petulant group of terrorists in control since 2007.

It's convenient to paint Israel as a nation full of Europeans bulldozing schools full of innocent children as part of a diabolical land grab. That's bullshit. The situation is much more nuanced than that. Last decade, Israel tried to get the hell out of dodge and leave them alone. They fucked it up and it's been heading progressively towards this boiling point since then.
 

BobbyMac

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It is a mistake to equate Palestinians to Muslims. Now a large percentage of Palestinians may be Muslim, but they are Christian, secular, etc. My ex fiance is Palestinian, her father's family is muslim and her mother's is Christian.

It is also a mistake to say "throw Jews under the bus." It isn't Jews, it is Zionists. There are many Jews that think Israel is an apartheid state.


It's not a mistake to associate Palestinians with Islam. @ 95% of all peoples claiming to be Palestinian are Muslim. The ultra minority Christian Palestinians are more likely to have left the Levant or if still in Israel, are obviously less likely to be at odds with Jewish Israelis.

I was obviously referring to Israeli Jews when I mentioned throwing them under the bus. Though there is a sizable left leaning Jewish demographic here in the States that would agree with your assessment that Israel is an apartheid state, I doubt you'd find much agreement regarding your views with those that matter in this conversation... Israeli Jews.

.
 
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