2014 NBA Free Agency and Draft

[zelezo vlk]

What player in NY did he make better? There are a ton of "scorers" in the league. Melo is certainly that, but a guy you build your team around he is not.

As posted above, that team was a nightmare. Who would you rather have?

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[woolybug25]

Haha... Ok. So no player in Anthony's entire career was any good and that's why he couldn't make any of them better? Why he could never make a finals push? Seems to me that both the nuggets and the Knicks tried to get a supporting cast for him. Weird that other stars don't want to join him.

Listen, I never said he wasn't good, he is... But a champion caliber player he is not. He's a lazy player, "me first" guy. Look at the real super stars in the league (LBJ, Kobe, Durant, Dirk, etc), they all have shown that they can lead a team and make seamingly average players into acceptable supporting casts. LBJ in Cleveland is a good example of that. Swap Carmelo with LBJ on those Cav teams and they probably wouldn't have even been playoff teams.

I have watched him plenty in NY too, so it's not just a "you haven't watched him of late" issue. Again, he has talent for days, but I would bet my bottom dollar that he never leads a team to a championship. Maybe as a peice to a team with already in place leadership, but never as a star. There is nothing in his entire career that could be used as evidence that he is capable of leading a team to the promised land.

 

[SaltyND24]

Haha... Ok. So no player in Anthony's entire career was any good and that's why he couldn't make any of them better? Why he could never make a finals push? Seems to me that both the nuggets and the Knicks tried to get a supporting cast for him. Weird that other stars don't want to join him.

Listen, I never said he wasn't good, he is... But a champion caliber player he is not. He's a lazy player, "me first" guy. Look at the real super stars in the league (LBJ, Kobe, Durant, Dirk, etc), they all have shown that they can lead a team and make seamingly average players into acceptable supporting casts. LBJ in Cleveland is a good example of that. Swap Carmelo with LBJ on those Cav teams and they probably wouldn't have even been playoff teams.

I have watched him plenty in NY too, so it's not just a "you haven't watched him of late" issue. Again, he has talent for days, but I would bet my bottom dollar that he never leads a team to a championship. Maybe as a peice to a team with already in place leadership, but never as a star. There is nothing in his entire career that could be used as evidence that he is capable of leading a team to the promised land.

Huge Lakers fan...Love Kobe, but I don't think he makes many players around him better with his play. He pushes his guys with his toughness and hard work. I just wouldn't put him in LBJ's category on making his teammates better. I don't think Kobe makes it to the finals with that team LeBron had when they got curb stomped by the Spurs in 06-07.

 

[woolybug25]

Huge Lakers fan...Love Kobe, but I don't think he makes many players around him better with his play. He pushes his guys with his toughness and hard work. I just wouldn't put him in LBJ's category on making his teammates better. I don't think Kobe makes it to the finals with that team LeBron had when they got curb stomped by the Spurs in 06-07.

Agree to disagree. You said it yourself, "he pushes his guys with toughness in hard work". That's the definition of making players better. "Pushing them with leadership".

The funny thing is that lots of people have trouble realizing how a star makes others better. They instead give too much credit to the seamingly average player. Call guys like Derek Fisher "gritty" and Pippen a "top 50 player of all time".

 

[irishog77]

Grahambo- if you substitute Carmelo Anthony for Dirk Nowitzki in 2011, you think Dallas still wins the title?

What Wooly, myself, and others point is here is we don't think Anthony is a champion-caliber player. What team has he ever carried to a deep playoff run?

There's nothing wrong with being just a really good player. There's nothing wrong with being Dominique Wilkins or Tracy McGrady. We think Anthony is like this. And to date, there's nothing on his resume that says he isn't.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Melo is being signed as one piece of the puzzle. Rose (in whatever caliber of play he can muster) Noah and Taj are the three players Chicago is pitching Melo to play with. They want a Big Four and have told him as such.

I can't speak for the Suns though.

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[Grahambo]

Grahambo- if you substitute Carmelo Anthony for Dirk Nowitzki in 2011, you think Dallas still wins the title?

What Wooly, myself, and others point is here is we don't think Anthony is a champion-caliber player. What team has he ever carried to a deep playoff run?

There's nothing wrong with being just a really good player. There's nothing wrong with being Dominique Wilkins or Tracy McGrady. We think Anthony is like this. And to date, there's nothing on his resume that says he isn't.

It's all good my fam! Just something we will all disagree on. No biggie.

He's made plenty of players better. I said he's not on LBJ's level..nobody is. Not even KD. Again, look at the rosters he's had, he carried them to 54 wins a year ago. Coaching has been a major issue. If you don't think he demands greatness from his teammates then you're wrong. He does. You can't win titles in this league without a superstar roster like the Heat had, Spurs have etc. he hasn't been supplied with a great roster. Again, he was able to get guys like Chris Copeland and Steve Novak big paydays. He helped JR to a payday plus a 6th Man award.

He averaged 27/8/3 last year and was the only consistent player on a nightly basis. He's Top 10 in the league.

Sure, LBJ took a bad Cleveland team to the finals but he didn't win until Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen etc. (not to mention the Spurs screwing up the last 30 seconds of G6.)

Even LBJ knows he can't do it alone which is why he's looking for a roster right now.

Love the debate about Melo just disagree on him.


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[Grahambo]

Melo is being signed as one piece of the puzzle. Rose (in whatever caliber of play he can muster) Noah and Taj are the three players Chicago is pitching Melo to play with. They want a Big Four and have told him as such.

I can't speak for the Suns though.

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What I read was that the problem with Chicago is they can only offer so much money..I think someone said $72 mil max?


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[Grahambo]

It's hard to keep up on Tapatalk and work but won't mind a healthy debate via text if some are so inclined.


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[zelezo vlk]

What I read was that the problem with Chicago is they can only offer so much money..I think someone said $72 mil max?


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This is unfortunately true, I think. He'll be leaving a lot of money on the table if he leaves.

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[gkIrish]

Grahambo- if you substitute Carmelo Anthony for Dirk Nowitzki in 2011, you think Dallas still wins the title?

What Wooly, myself, and others point is here is we don't think Anthony is a champion-caliber player. What team has he ever carried to a deep playoff run?

There's nothing wrong with being just a really good player. There's nothing wrong with being Dominique Wilkins or Tracy McGrady. We think Anthony is like this. And to date, there's nothing on his resume that says he isn't.

This is kind of a ridiculous argument to me because there have basically been 4 franchises that have won every championship since 1996. So does that mean 0 stars in the league besides anyone on those teams are championship-caliber players? The Celtics had a "big 3." Under your logic, Dirk is the only "championship caliber player" on a team besides the Spurs, Lakers, Bulls, and Heat because he was the only player to be the only star on a championship team...

Were Garnett or Pierce championship caliber players before they won? Under that logic, absolutely not, because they never made any deep playoff runs.

 

[woolybug25]

Grahambo - don't have your #, so we can pick up the debate once you get back. But one final thought.

It isn't the point that LBJ couldn't win it all until he went to Miami, it's that even when his team was less talented, they still competed on a high level. Again, no one questions Melo's talent, he's just not a champion. Look at Duncan. He isn't the dominant talent he once was, but he is a consumant winner and leader. He and Pop LED a team of relative rag tags over the most talent rich teams ever assembled. Talent alone doesn't make a championship caliber player. Otherwise Iverson, Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady would be sporting rings. In my opinion, Melo is that type of player.

 

[gkIrish]

Grahambo - don't have your #, so we can pick up the debate once you get back. But one final thought.

It isn't the point that LBJ couldn't win it all until he went to Miami, it's that even when his team was less talented, they still competed on a high level. Again, no one questions Melo's talent, he's just not a champion. Look at Duncan. He isn't the dominant talent he once was, but he is a consumant winner and leader. He and Pop LED a team of relative rag tags over the most talent rich teams ever assembled. Talent alone doesn't make a championship caliber player. Otherwise Iverson, Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady would be sporting rings. In my opinion, Melo is that type of player.

Basically the same thing I posted below but a player does not magically become a championship-caliber player overnight. Pierce, Garnett, Dirk, etc. were no different than Melo before they won. It takes time and it takes luck. Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and John Stockton were absolutely amazing players but they had to deal with Jordan. So they don't have a ring. Doesn't mean they weren't capable of winning a championship.

 

[woolybug25]

Basically the same thing I posted below but a player does not magically become a championship-caliber player overnight. Pierce, Garnett, Dirk, etc. were no different than Melo before they won. It takes time and it takes luck. Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, and John Stockton were absolutely amazing players but they had to deal with Jordan. So they don't have a ring. Doesn't mean they weren't capable of winning a championship.

But all of those players reached much higher levels, many playing for championships, than Melo ever has. That would be relevant if Melo wasn't "getting over the hump" because of players like LBJ. But he isn't even playing in those games. All of those players you listed led their teams into consistent, high level, championship chasing basketball. When has Melo ever put his teams on his back and carried them into playoff pushes?

 

[Luckylucci]

From an offensive perspective Melo is very fun to watch. Like Iverson he's an exceptional scorer. However he hates playing defense or doing anything else that contributes to winning. GREAT players play defense and do other things to make people better, he just scores. Absolutely great attribute but not something that makes him a winner. I'm a fan but it's pretty obvious.

 

[irishog77]

This is kind of a ridiculous argument to me because there have basically been 4 franchises that have won every championship since 1996. So does that mean 0 stars in the league besides anyone on those teams are championship-caliber players? The Celtics had a "big 3." Under your logic, Dirk is the only "championship caliber player" on a team besides the Spurs, Lakers, Bulls, and Heat because he was the only player to be the only star on a championship team...

Were Garnett or Pierce championship caliber players before they won? Under that logic, absolutely not, because they never made any deep playoff runs.

Or 7 teams have won championships since '96. And the repeaters on that list (SA, LA, Miami, and even Chicago if you go back to 91-93) have done so with huge roster overhauls. It's not like they had some core group of 8-10 guys there for all their titles. They were reinvented, keeping 1, 2, or 3 pieces.

But I also said (and you bolded) deep playoff run. Hell, Anthony doesn't even have a run like Iverson where he was MVP and lead his team to the Finals. Or even like a young Derek Rose literally carrying his team to the conference finals.

If I'm going to offer a player a max contract, have to give in his to his trade demand, or be the sole team a player demands to play for, he better give more and produce more than Anthony has.

Robert Horry was probably never better than the 3rd best player on any team he ever played for. He won 8 titles on 3 different teams though by being a key piece. He wasn't a superstar (didn't demand money, the ball, or certain circumstances to go play), but was obviously a championship caliber player. Miami doesn't win 3 titles without Udonis Haslem. So no, you don't have to be Dirk or Wade and carry your team to a title to be championship caliber. But any player I give as much money and attention to as Anthony, I would want more for my team than what he has thus far provided.

 

[gkIrish]

But all of those players reached much higher levels, many playing for championships, than Melo ever has. That would be relevant if Melo wasn't "getting over the hump" because of players like LBJ. But he isn't even playing in those games. All of those players you listed led their teams into consistent, high level, championship chasing basketball. When has Melo ever put his teams on his back and carried them into playoff pushes?

I don't think that's accurate at all. Paul Pierce was on some of the worst Celtics teams in history. Melo has only missed the playoffs once by compairson.

Garnett made it out of the first round of the playoffs twice until he got to Boston.

Dirk made the playoffs every year but only made the finals once before winning it. But honestly don't see how Dirk "made players better." Is also probably a worse defender than Melo. I actually think Dirk is a good example of how you can go from a playoff underachiever to a champion with some luck and a better team.

 

[gkIrish]

Or 7 teams have won championships since '96. And the repeaters on that list (SA, LA, Miami, and even Chicago if you go back to 91-93) have done so with huge roster overhauls. It's not like they had some core group of 8-10 guys there for all their titles. They were reinvented, keeping 1, 2, or 3 pieces.

But I also said (and you bolded) deep playoff run. Hell, Anthony doesn't even have a run like Iverson where he was MVP and lead his team to the Finals. Or even like a young Derek Rose literally carrying his team to the conference finals.

If I'm going to offer a player a max contract, have to give in his to his trade demand, or be the sole team a player demands to play for, he better give more and produce more than Anthony has.

Robert Horry was probably never better than the 3rd best player on any team he ever played for. He won 8 titles on 3 different teams though by being a key piece. He wasn't a superstar (didn't demand money, the ball, or certain circumstances to go play), but was obviously a championship caliber player. Miami doesn't win 3 titles without Udonis Haslem. So no, you don't have to be Dirk or Wade and carry your team to a title to be championship caliber. But any player I give as much money and attention to as Anthony, I would want more for my team than what he has thus far provided.

I just don't think it's fair to judge a player by the success of their team unless you are trying to evaluate the greatest players of all-time. So it's fair IMO to debate Jordan v. Lebron in terms of championships because otherwise there isn't a lot to debate. But if you are just trying to figure out whether someone is a superstar/max player, you got to look at their talent and statistics rather than team success.

 

[irishog77]

Anthony has been in the league 11 years. When is he going to make an appearance in the finals, gk? Particularly leading a team?

 

[irishog77]

I just don't think it's fair to judge a player by the success of their team unless you are trying to evaluate the greatest players of all-time. So it's fair IMO to debate Jordan v. Lebron in terms of championships because otherwise there isn't a lot to debate. But if you are just trying to figure out whether someone is a superstar/max player, you got to look at their talent and statistics rather than team success.

I think Anthony is better than Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson (2 other max players), no question. But owners and GM's aren't trying to build teams around them either. They are pieces to the puzzle. If Anthony wants to be "the man" (like he has essentially acted and demanded for his entire career), then be "the man" and win a couple playoff series for crying out loud. Otherwise, you're just a piece to the puzzle.

 

[Grahambo]

Anthony has been in the league 11 years. When is he going to make an appearance in the finals, gk? Particularly leading a team?

I think the point GK and I are trying to make is that of all the examples presented, they had great TEAMS around them. Garnett, Pierce, etc were on Melo's level UNTIL they teamed up. Now all of a sudden they're championship players?

LBJ hooked up with Wade and Bosh. Perennial all-stars and with Wade, Top 3-5 SG in the game (when healthy).

Can anybody name who Melo got to play with yet still was able to accomplish the playoffs 9 times? He's made other guys better. I cited some examples.

Is Durant a championship player?


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[gkIrish]

Anthony has been in the league 11 years. When is he going to make an appearance in the finals, gk? Particularly leading a team?

I actually think if Melo signed with the Bulls and DRose was healthy they would be the favorites to win the East next year. I'll take Melo, Rose, and Noah over Lebron, Bosh, and deteriorating Wade every day of the week.

My point is that appearing in the finals doesn't make you a max player.

Is Chris Paul not a max player?

 

[gkIrish]

I think Anthony is better than Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson (2 other max players), no question. But owners and GM's aren't trying to build teams around them either. They are pieces to the puzzle. If Anthony wants to be "the man" (like he has essentially acted and demanded for his entire career), then be "the man" and win a couple playoff series for crying out loud. Otherwise, you're just a piece to the puzzle.

I've watched just about every game Melo has played for the Knicks and I think he is ridiculously good. Dude is "the man." Teams have triple teamed him before. He plays hurt all the time. My only complaint is that he takes too many final shots to win/tie games and has made very few of them as a Knick. But he did it all the time as a Nugget.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I'll be an NBA widow if Melo went to the Bulls, but if anybody can get the light bulb to turn on for him it would be Thibs and their mentality.

 

[Grahambo]

I'll be an NBA widow if Melo went to the Bulls, but if anybody can get the light bulb to turn on for him it would be Thibs and their mentality.

Money talks as we all know but I think the uncertainty of Roses' knee doesn't help.


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[IrishSteelhead]

Rock on Grahambo. I agree Melo makes the Bulls an instant contender, but I'm just skeptical how he would perform/react in an environment where there are no excuses and no one else to blame.

 

[Grahambo]

Rock on Grahambo. I agree Melo makes the Bulls an instant contender, but I'm just skeptical how he would perform/react in an environment where there are no excuses and no one else to blame.

In Phil We Trust!


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[SaltyND24]

Agree to disagree. You said it yourself, "he pushes his guys with toughness in hard work". That's the definition of making players better. "Pushing them with leadership".

The funny thing is that lots of people have trouble realizing how a star makes others better. They instead give too much credit to the seamingly average player. Call guys like Derek Fisher "gritty" and Pippen a "top 50 player of all time".

What I was trying to get at was that it would be difficult for me as a player playing with Kobe for me to sit out when I see him playing with all the injuries he has. He demands the same toughness he exhibits; however, I have watched more than enough games to say that LBJ is in another world when it comes to making his teammates better than Kobe. I honestly think that LeBron takes the 04-05 Lakers to a better record than they had (34-48) and that Kobe doesn't do what LeBron did with the 06-07 Cavs team (make the NBA Finals). I just think LeBron's style of play is better at involving his teammates and getting them into a rhythm and he shows the trust in them late in games to make the plays needed on the offensive end. It's just the mentality that he plays the game with that's my reason for what I said in my first post. I mean, it was discussed during the postseason about how Kobe treated Smush, who was 3rd in scoring and shot .003% lower than Kobe did from the field that year (05-06).

 

[KPENN]

Don't really buy it, but....
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Cleveland has replaced Miami as my frontrunner to land LeBron James...</p>— Chris Broussard (@Chris_Broussard) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chris_Broussard/statuses/485973472502218754">July 7, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[irishfan]

Ha I said the Big Three should all go to Cleveland when free agency started.

I don't think he's heading back to Miami cause they don't seem to have the ability to put together an improved roster. Cleveland makes sense although I think it would be cool if he headed to Phoenix.