'15 CA QB Blake Barnett (Arizona State Transfer)

[Irish Insanity]

So from ND commit to...Bama, LSU, UGA, Ole Miss, Oregon...interesting...

couldn't qualify for ND

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I've said this before: the hero worship that occurs in the South with college football players can help any somewhat motivated student there land a sweet job just because he played for (insert school name). Lots of good old boys who own companies are willing to hire "former x player" over "pencil neck unknown honor student." Is it good for their business? Probably not. Does it still happen all the time? Hell yes.


Let's not pretend even marginal talents don't have a huge advantage in the job market based on their name recognition in the South. Hell, I'd rather tell people my insurance agent is Connor Shaw than "Joe Snuffy."

 

[ThePiombino]

I've said this before: the hero worship that occurs in the South with college football players can help any somewhat motivated student there land a sweet job just because he played for (insert school name). Lots of good old boys who own companies are willing to hire "former x player" over "pencil neck unknown honor student." Is it good for their business? Probably not. Does it still happen all the time? Hell yes.


Let's not pretend even marginal talents don't have a huge advantage in the job market based on their name recognition in the South. Hell, I'd rather tell people my insurance agent is Connor Shaw than "Joe Snuffy."

And that's awesome if you're happy never leaving the south.

 

[Irish#1]

I've said this before: the hero worship that occurs in the South with college football players can help any somewhat motivated student there land a sweet job just because he played for (insert school name). Lots of good old boys who own companies are willing to hire "former x player" over "pencil neck unknown honor student." Is it good for their business? Probably not. Does it still happen all the time? Hell yes.


Let's not pretend even marginal talents don't have a huge advantage in the job market based on their name recognition in the South. Hell, I'd rather tell people my insurance agent is Connor Shaw than "Joe Snuffy."

Excellent point. Let a booster get you a great paying job after your playing days are over.

 

[irishog77]

I've said this before: the hero worship that occurs in the South with college football players can help any somewhat motivated student there land a sweet job just because he played for (insert school name). Lots of good old boys who own companies are willing to hire "former x player" over "pencil neck unknown honor student." Is it good for their business? Probably not. Does it still happen all the time? Hell yes.


Let's not pretend even marginal talents don't have a huge advantage in the job market based on their name recognition in the South. Hell, I'd rather tell people my insurance agent is Connor Shaw than "Joe Snuffy."

Very true. I don't think this is localized in the south though.

I think the same could be said for Washington, Nebraska, West Virginia, Minnesota, Indiana, Michigan, Massachusetts, Alaska, etc.

 

[IrishLax]

I've said this before: the hero worship that occurs in the South with college football players can help any somewhat motivated student there land a sweet job just because he played for (insert school name). Lots of good old boys who own companies are willing to hire "former x player" over "pencil neck unknown honor student." Is it good for their business? Probably not. Does it still happen all the time? Hell yes.


Let's not pretend even marginal talents don't have a huge advantage in the job market based on their name recognition in the South. Hell, I'd rather tell people my insurance agent is Connor Shaw than "Joe Snuffy."

See what's weird is that I've heard this mantra before... the "degree doesn't matter, we take care of our own" sort of thing. It's a big selling point for schools outside of the SEC too like Michigan and Ohio State.

What I'm wondering is if anyone (T Town? anyone here living in the deep south?) can actually provide examples of guys who "didn't make it" (got hurt, never played, etc.) and still have a great non-football career.

I can provide tons of examples for ND (Cwynar, Anello, Abro, etc.) of guys who went on to great non-sport related careers. I'd love to take a look at LSU or Alabama and do a "where are they now?" for guys who signed LOIs from, say, 2008-2010 and aren't in the NFL.

 

[IrishLax]

Also, just two examples of guys who come to mind who were STARS in college and then burned out are Marcus Dupree and Muarice Clarrett. If the "we take care of our own" mantra was actually legit, why weren't people bending over backwards to give these two good jobs? Clarrett ended up robbing people and going to jail, Dupree is a truck driver and had to make a call to a high school connection to even get that job.

I don't buy the notion that boosters take care of guys once they're washed up, because I've never seen this happen as the "norm." Maybe it does and I just haven't seen it. The reason bag men, etc. front money in the first place is because they're paying the money to get a good product on the field. It's a self-serving thing, and I don't think there is any motivation for them to keep paying the $$ after the fact. It's on to the next one.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What I'm wondering is if anyone (T Town? anyone here living in the deep south?) can actually provide examples of guys who "didn't make it" (got hurt, never played, etc.) and still have a great non-football career.

I don't buy it either. The bag man SB Nation interviewed straight up admitted that they push football players into joke majors so they'll have few post-grad options other than coaching high school football (so they'll direct new recruits toward their alma mater). That's not "taking care of your own".

Edit: Found the relevant quote:

College majors like Exercise Science and General Education have long been assailed by critics as crip-course degrees, but shadow boosters see them as a vital way to perpetuate the cycle. If a player finishes out his eligibility and has no feasible future in the pros, he might return home and become a nearby high school coach. It doesn't matter if it's junior high or seven-on-seven camps; each means a new brand ambassador for the program.

"You win the gym teachers, and you can go a long way. That's why all those basket-weaving degrees are so important, because we need 'em on both ends. You need 'em to keep the kids qualified, and you need 'em to produce guys who can go back and coach and teach and help us."

I'd love to take a look at LSU or Alabama and do a "where are they now?" for guys who signed LOIs from, say, 2008-2010 and aren't in the NFL.

Absolutely. Football factories use this sort of bullshit to neutralize our overwhelming advantage in degree value. Would be nice to have something objective to counter it with. Though it would likely be hard to collect enough data to present it in a comprehensive fashion. Anecdotes about individual players can just as easily be countered by a few successful outliers.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Also, just two examples of guys who come to mind who were STARS in college and then burned out are Marcus Dupree and Muarice Clarrett. If the "we take care of our own" mantra was actually legit, why weren't people bending over backwards to give these two good jobs? Clarrett ended up robbing people and going to jail, Dupree is a truck driver and had to make a call to a high school connection to even get that job.

That's why I put "somewhat motivated" student. IIRC, Clarett and Dupree never finished college. If they stayed out of trouble and got a diploma, I could totally see the fanboys lining up with offers.

 

[irishog77]

See what's weird is that I've heard this mantra before... the "degree doesn't matter, we take care of our own" sort of thing. It's a big selling point for schools outside of the SEC too like Michigan and Ohio State.

What I'm wondering is if anyone (T Town? anyone here living in the deep south?) can actually provide examples of guys who "didn't make it" (got hurt, never played, etc.) and still have a great non-football career.

I can provide tons of examples for ND (Cwynar, Anello, Abro, etc.) of guys who went on to great non-sport related careers. I'd love to take a look at LSU or Alabama and do a "where are they now?" for guys who signed LOIs from, say, 2008-2010 and aren't in the NFL.

Yes, there are lots, Lax. I obviously can't provide a detailed list. But I know/know of/see lots of former Vanderbilt (I know, a stretch), Tennessee, and Titan football players doing well in life. A few others from other sec schools, or other schools in general, in Nashville as well, but predominantly those 3 here (for obvious reasons).

I'd also say going back a bit further from '08-'10 may give a better indicator (those guys are still pretty young and "making their way," so to speak).

Also, it's a bit tough to say what a great career somebody has due to a variety of factors-- personal goals, personal limitations, outsider views of success, etc. CJ Sanders dad (an osu alum), for instance, has done a lot of good things in Nashville and some in Denver too (where Chris is from) with his charitable organizations, but it's hard to quantify that, you know.

 

[irishog77]

That's why I put "somewhat motivated" student. IIRC, Clarett and Dupree never finished college. If they stayed out of trouble and got a diploma, I could totally see the fanboys lining up with offers.

This is a big difference too. Guys that finished school versus guys that didn't (and never were going to in the first place).

 

[IrishSteelhead]

I could totally see alot of guys who don't make it flung to the side too, like Lax is saying.

As the old saying goes, "Everybody loves a soldier until he comes home and stops fighting."

Connection: There was a guy from my hometown who was a standout defensive lineman at Notre Dame in the late 80's (member of 88 NC team). He was All-American caliber one season, but suffered an injury the next one and couldn't play anymore. Years later, I saw him at this bar all the time, clearly living a "civilian" life, and would get angry when people mentioned ND or praised his time there. Don't remember if he got his degree or not. IMO the ND experience wasn't as tightly knit during the Holtz era. It might have been a tad more football-factory esque.

You can PM me if you want to know the name, and hopefully let me know if he did finish or not as an ND student.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

“@NoahStanley247: June's most viewed #247Sports player pages:
1. T. Waller @traviswaller11
2. B. Barnett @BlakeBarnett_8

Lol good job Irish fans.

And Cornell was third

 

[irishog77]

Who was 13th?

 

[koonja]

You could never get exact salary or wage info, but using LinkedIn and all of the salary estimators out there, you could get a really good idea of what life is like with no NFL for ND vs. others.

Stanford, ND and such should look into this as a recruiting tool.

And also break down the number of 3/4/5 stars that aren't working in the NFL because 100% of 5-stars think they're going to the league, most 4 stars, and a lot of 3-stars too.

 

[Irish8248]

You could never get exact salary or wage info, but using LinkedIn and all of the salary estimators out there, you could get a really good idea of what life is like with no NFL for ND vs. others.

Stanford, ND and such should look into this as a recruiting tool.

And also break down the number of 3/4/5 stars that aren't working in the NFL because 100% of 5-stars think they're going to the league, most 4 stars, and a lot of 3-stars too.

Selling a kid on the likelihood of him not going to the nfl is prob not the strongest argument one can make

 

[connect the dots]

See what's weird is that I've heard this mantra before... the "degree doesn't matter, we take care of our own" sort of thing. It's a big selling point for schools outside of the SEC too like Michigan and Ohio State.

What I'm wondering is if anyone (T Town? anyone here living in the deep south?) can actually provide examples of guys who "didn't make it" (got hurt, never played, etc.) and still have a great non-football career.

I can provide tons of examples for ND (Cwynar, Anello, Abro, etc.) of guys who went on to great non-sport related careers. I'd love to take a look at LSU or Alabama and do a "where are they now?" for guys who signed LOIs from, say, 2008-2010 and aren't in the NFL.

ESPN, in their 30 for 30 program, dealt with just this issue in their documentary film - THE BEST THAT NEVER WAS - high school, college, and pro career of running back Marcus Dupree. All I can say, this film will stay with you.

 

[md_bennett]

ESPN, in their 30 for 30 program, dealt with just this issue in their documentary film - THE BEST THAT NEVER WAS - high school, college, and pro career of running back Marcus Dupree. All I can say, this film will stay with you.

It should be a warning to all athletes out there to make sure they have a future. You cannot rely on others to give you hand outs. You cannot rely on your name recognition. Set yourself up for success academically and hope for the best athletically.

 

[koonja]

Selling a kid on the likelihood of him not going to the nfl is prob not the strongest argument one can make

I don't think ND would sell him on you're not making it, lol.

But ND prides its recruiting on its honesty.

If they can lay out how many actually make a career in the NFL, and a 'here's what happens when you don't at ND vs. here's what happens when you don't at Alabama',

IDK how it could do anything but help ND's recruiting.

 

[Irish8248]

Because it doesn't matter if a kid is 1* or 5*, if they're playing D1 then the dream of playing in the nfl is still alive

You're going to say well you might not make it to the nfl but here's a degree compared to a school who says we're going to do everything we can to get you into the nfl and a degree which you make what you want our odd it

Which pitch you think works

 

[md_bennett]

Selling a kid on the likelihood of him not going to the nfl is prob not the strongest argument one can make

It doesn't even have to be solely on performance. Show these kids that injuries can cut enough time out of your career to not get the attention they should probably deserve, and they are going to face an up-hill battle to make it in the league if that happens. Show them that injuries can permanently take you out of the game - a single broken ankle that never heals correctly. Sell them on the fact that we can set them up for the NFL if they work hard, but also sell them on setting them up for life with an actual direction in life.

EDIT: Sell them on the fact that if they are able to read and comprehend at a high level that they may not have to pay their agents nearly as much.

 

[koonja]

Because it doesn't matter if a kid is 1* or 5*, if they're paying D1 then the dream of playing in the nfl is still alive

You're going to say we'll you might not make it to the nfl but here's a degree compared to a school who says we're going to do everything we can to get you into the nfl

Which pitch you think works

And ND could add data point that says 'when said-school says you're more likely to get to the NFL by going with them, here's the reality'.

Doesn't ND have a high success rate of getting people drafted and/or in the NFL compared to even the biggest programs? I know this last draft we killed it, but beyond that?

I don't think it's as hard as you're making it seem. And if the kids can't understand the information and what it's saying, they're probably not ND material anyways.

 

[Irish8248]

And ND could add data point that says 'when said-school says you're more likely to get to the NFL by going with them, here's the reality'.

Doesn't ND have a high success rate of getting people drafted and/or in the NFL compared to even the biggest programs? I know this last draft we killed it, but beyond that?

I don't think it's as hard as you're making it seem. And if the kids can't understand the information and what it's saying, they're probably not ND material anyways.

most kids are not going to care about that because hte exception to that point is the kid who does make it to the NFL at that school and the current kid believes hes that exception until year 2 when hes stuck in depth chart battle

 

[Irish8248]

im not saying dont make the argument but its nothing thats going to jump out and be a game changer for the majority of kids

it might be enough to tip the scales in our favor
it might be enough for them to get on campus
it might be enough to keep us around in their "top 4 then 5 down to 3 up to 10" assortment list

but its not enough to outright say im choosing ND over school X because of the degree -- if that were even remotely close to happening then it wouldnt be as difficult for us to recruit. And the kids who do do this arent usually the game changers were chasing after

 

[Whiskeyjack]

but its not enough to outright say im choosing ND over school X because of the degree -- if that were even remotely close to happening then it wouldnt be as difficult for us to recruit. And the kids who do do this arent usually the game changers were chasing after

There's no "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to recruiting. A Mormon recruit from Utah might like ND's spirituality. A Midwestern OL might appreciate our superior tradition. Most academics-first kids are going to give us a serious look as long as they're offered.

The football-first kids are bit different. We can easily show them that ND puts kids in the League as well as any football factory. But the way we distinguish ourselves is by selling the degree as an insurance policy. Sort of "have your cake and eat it, too". You don't lead with the statistics overwhelmingly against any individual recruit becoming independently wealthy via professional football, but you work it into the insurance policy angle when discussing why they should care about the degree value.

We've always struggled to pull those kids, and that's not going to change. To be honest, ND probably isn't the best place for many of them.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

From 1992 to 2011 it was

OSU
SC
Tennessee
Florida
Nebraska
ND
Georgia
Penn State
Michigan
Alabama
Oklahoma
LSU
Va Tech
Colorado
Texas
Texas A&M
Auburn
Washington
Clemson
Pittsburg
Ga Tech
Syracuse
Arkansas
West Va
Miami of Ohio

Interesting no? These were mostly ND's weakest years!

Here are the top 25 teams all-time in producing NFL talent and Pro Football Hall of Famers:
1-Notre Dame - 513 NFL players all-time (11 Hall of Famers... Paul Hornung, Nick Bouniconti, Dave Casper)

2-USC - 438 ex. Trojans went to the NFL (11 made it to the Hall of Fame... Marcus Allen, Frank Gifford, Ronnie Lott, O.J. Simpson, Lynn Swann, Ron Yary)

3-Ohio State -378 players to the NFL (6 in Hall of Fame... Lou Groza, Dick LeBeau, Paul Warfield, Jim Parker, Bill Willis)

4-Michigan - 332 players to the NFL (6 in Hall of Fame)

5-Penn State - 325 in the NFL (5 in Hall of Fame... Jack Ham, Franco Harris, Lenny Moore)

6-Nebraska - 324 in NFL (3 in Hall of Fame)

7-Oklahoma - 296 NFLers (3 in Hall of Fame)

8-Tennessee - 290 to the NFL, tops in the SEC (2 Hall of Famers)

9-Pittsburgh - 287 in NFL (9 in the Hall... Mike Ditka, Tony Dorsett, Ricky Jackson, Dan Marino)

10-Miami - 284 players overall (5 in Hall of Fame)

11-LSU - 281 players (3 in Hall of Fame... Y.A. Tittle, Jimmy Taylor, Steve Van Buren)

12-UCLA - 278 players to the NFL (4 in Hall... Troy Aikman, Tom Fears, Bob Waterfield, Jimmy Johnson)

13-Wisconsin - 271 to the NFL (4 in the Hall of Fame) 14-Texas - 268 in the NFL (4 in Hall... Earl Campbell, Tom Landry, Bobby Layne, Tex Schramm )

15-Alabama - 267 in the NFL (7 Hall of Famers... Bart Starr, Derrick Thomas, John Hannah, Don Hutson, Joe Namath, Ozzie Newsome, Dwight Stephenson)

16-Michigan State - 263 went onto NFL (2 in Hall of Fame)

17-Purdue - 260 to NFL (4 in Hall... Len Dawson, Bob Griese, Hank Stram, Rod Woodson)

18-Georgia-259 to the NFL (2 in Hall of Fame... Fran Tarkenton, Charlie Trippi)

19-Florida - 255 in NFL (2 in Hall of Fame)

20-(tie) Texas A&M - 249 (1 in Hall of Fame) ---Illinois also with 249 (3 in Hall of Fame... Dick Butkus)

21-Washington - 241 to NFL (3 in Hall of Fame)

22-Iowa -235 NFL players (3 in NFL Hall of Fame)

23-Minnesota 234 in NFL (5 in Hall of Fame... Bobby Bell, Carl Eller, Bud Grant, Bronko Nagurski, Charlie Sanders, Leo Nomellini)

24-(tie) Syracuse with 228 (6 in Hall of Fame... Jim Brown) ---Auburn also with 228 in NFL (1 in Hall of Fame)

25-(tie) Arizona State 225 in NFL (4 in Hall of Fame) ---Florida State also with 225 (2 in Hall of Fame)

You may note that tiny Grambling State has four former greats in Canton, which is more than 13 schools from the above list and ties them with five other college football powers which also have four.

 

[ThePiombino]

There's no "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to recruiting. A Mormon recruit Utah might like ND's spirituality. A Midwestern OL might appreciate our superior tradition. Most academics-first kids are going to give us a serious look as long as they're offered.

The football-first kids are bit different. We can easily show them that ND puts kids in the League as well as any football factory. But the way we distinguish ourselves is by selling the degree as an insurance policy. Sort of "have your cake and eat it, too".

But we've always struggled to pull those kids, and that's not going to change.

I agree with all of this except for your last point. Right now, we struggle because of of the past 20 years of overall mediocrity on the field. However, if we start winning consistently, which I think we're on the right track to do, we'll turn more heads. Think USC now, how it benefits from the Carroll years. I just think it won't always be as much of an uphill battle so long as we continue the current program trajectory.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I agree with all of this except for your last point. Right now, we struggle because of of the past 20 years of overall mediocrity on the field. However, if we start winning consistently, which I think we're on the right track to do, we'll turn more heads.

People have short memories, especially now with the 24/7 news cycle. It's all about "what have you done lately?" And we played for a title 1.5 years ago. I'd argue that Kelly has won consistently. He hasn't won fewer than 8 games in any year he's been here.

Think USC now, how it benefits from the Carroll years.

I wonder if USC fans think the highs of the Carroll era were worth the recent 4-year hangover?

I just think it won't always be as much of an uphill battle so long as we continue the current program trajectory.

I don't think the mediocrity of Davie, Willingham and Weis are really hurting us anymore. A lot of our recent "struggles" are due to aspects of ND (academic standards, location, etc.) that simply aren't going to change.

 

[Irish8248]

There's no "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to recruiting. A Mormon recruit from Utah might like ND's spirituality. A Midwestern OL might appreciate our superior tradition. Most academics-first kids are going to give us a serious look as long as they're offered.

The football-first kids are bit different. We can easily show them that ND puts kids in the League as well as any football factory. But the way we distinguish ourselves is by selling the degree as an insurance policy. Sort of "have your cake and eat it, too". You don't lead with the statistics overwhelmingly against any individual recruit becoming independently wealthy via professional football, but you work it into the insurance policy angle when discussing why they should care about the degree value.

We've always struggled to pull those kids, and that's not going to change. To be honest, ND probably isn't the best place for many of them.

I get this and I agree but the way is being thrown around is similar to the mentality of "were ND thanks for inviting me I'll see you in the fall" 80s recruiting pitch.

It's more of marketing approach now a days and our target market has changed. How do we market the positives of ND with the interests of our audience. If our audience doesn't put that much weight in the difference of degrees [sure ND is better but how much better in my mind] then the ROI will hit them but not nearly as much as say producing 3 1st rounders or competitive post season play and success or how cool their uniforms are

Essentially the market for education first and foremost is small despite how every recruit starts out saying that

 

[Luckylucci]

People have short memories, especially now with the 24/7 news cycle. It's all about "what have you done lately?" And we played for a title 1.5 years ago. I'd argue that Kelly has won consistently. He hasn't won fewer than 8 games in any year he's been here.



I wonder if USC fans think the highs of the Carroll era were worth the recent 4-year hangover?



I don't think the mediocrity of Davie, Willingham and Weis are really hurting us anymore. A lot of our recent "struggles" are due to aspects of ND (academic standards, location, etc.) that simply aren't going to change.

Exactly, good post. Every cycle we can cross off a significant portion of the top 250 players because they have no interest in what ND has to offer. Its just the harsh truth. We'll still get our fair share of quality players but it may not look the same as other schools.