Subpackages

[Cackalacky]

Nickel & diming: How subpackages have become the new base defense in the NFL - SBNation.com

Reading how BVG has mentioned sub packages several times already and how tweener LBs/S are taking plenty of reps in practice, can anyone expand on what we think we might see outside of the base? I read this article and it got me very curious. I think we could see lots of nickle and dimes.

 

[dshans]

Dang.

I thought this thread would be a fight over whether Subway, Quizno's, Jimmy John's or Davanni's was the best.



I like Davanni's.

 

[cody1smith]

Dang.

I thought this thread would be a fight over whether Subway, Quizno's, Jimmy John's or Davanni's was the best.



I like Davanni's.

I have never even herd of Davanni's.

Ever have Blimpies?

 

[Cackalacky]

The average amount of plays in subpackages in the NFL is over 50%. Maybe someone who has watched practices can comment on what is happening. Sounds like a lot of snaps were 3rd down situations. Also saw Turner is getting more snaps. Hearing less about LBs outside of Jaylon and Joe.

 

[GATTACA!]

I have never even herd of Davanni's.

Ever have Blimpies?

Anyone have What About Bob's? That's the shit

 

[BGIF]

Dang.

I thought this thread would be a fight over whether Subway, Quizno's, Jimmy John's or Davanni's was the best.



I like Davanni's.

Of course you do.

All 21 locations are in Minnesota

 

[dshans]

Of course you do.

All 21 locations are in Minnesota

I knew that Davanni's was of local origin (it was originally Pontillo's) but thought it might have made it at least as far as Madison, WI or even Chicago.

I've heard of Blimpie but the only one in MN is 55 miles from me in a city I've only driven through or around without stopping. What About Bob's has only one location, if I can trust a Google search. If I'm ever driving from MN to upstate NY I might consider a stop.

There was a (one and done?) sub shop near me I'd hit when driving by and in the mood but they closed after a few years. They had good meats, cheeses and condiments but it was their bread that had me hooked. Mike's, I miss you. I wish I'd had the wherewithal to keep you up and running. It was the bread for the most part.

I'm sure that many areas have local sub/hoagie/hero/grinder shops that beat the pants off of the bland national chains.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Nickel & diming: How subpackages have become the new base defense in the NFL - SBNation.com

Reading how BVG has mentioned sub packages several times already and how tweener LBs/S are taking plenty of reps in practice, can anyone expand on what we think we might see outside of the base? I read this article and it got me very curious. I think we could see lots of nickle and dimes.

The Seahawks - who were mentioned in the article - even employs a 3-1-7 formation at times on long passing downs. I don't know if we will see the 55-60 percentile range for subpackages in college football like a lot of NFL teams use but I do think the conferences that pass a tremendous amount will see it developed more and more. Depth will be the main concern in college - can you really afford to have a subpar player out there covering? Will be interesting to see just how much BVG reverts to it with his NFL background. Sounds like he is putting in some special packages during spring practice from some of the practice reports.

As far as the sub sandwich debate.... support your local diner. They will appreciate it.

 

[Cackalacky]

I wonder what type of sub the stache enjoys?

 

[Cackalacky]

The Seahawks - who were mentioned in the article - even employs a 3-1-7 formation at times on long passing downs. I don't know if we will see the 55-60 percentile range for subpackages in college football like a lot of NFL teams use but I do think the conferences that pass a tremendous amount will see it developed more and more. Depth will be the main concern in college - can you really afford to have a subpar player out there covering? Will be interesting to see just how much BVG reverts to it with his NFL background. Sounds like he is putting in some special packages during spring practice from some of the practice reports.

As far as the sub sandwich debate.... support your local diner. They will appreciate it.

I am sure down and distance will play a role, as well as our opponents, in how much or what will be dialed up. But our secondary is pretty deep this year so it's not a stretch for us to play a lot of DBs against pass happy teams. We will obviously have to go bigger against Stanford but I think we could see as many as 6 DBs against Michigan.

 

[dshans]

Sorry for the unexpected side trip, Cracker Lackey.

I thought it would be a one-and-done wise ass remark.

At least it didn't devolve into a

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/hu6XLMMT4oI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

with salami, roast beef, meatballs, lettuce, provolone and vinaigrette flying all over monitor and phone screens

 

[Cackalacky]

Defense takes center stage // The Observer

Sounds like Smith will be the LB in nickle and Dime packages with Turner getting a lot of looks as the other LB in Nickle packages (3rd Down at least).

Also I like the idea of what Kelly says they are doing with Smith by moving him around and doing a bunch of different things with him.

AlsoPer Eric Hansen:

Even though Ishaq Williams now calls himself a defensive end and practices primarily with the defensive linemen, he and fellow end Romeo Okwara still spend some practice time working with the linebackers.

Same with safety James Onwualu, who plays linebacker (backup for now) in some of ND’s sub packages.

The thought behind this is that if ND faces a fastbreak offense, like its own, the Irish can adjust defensively to playing different packages even if they can’t substitute the ideal personnel.

“That’s why we’re moving some guys around a lot right now,” Kelly said.

 

[irishfan]

One of my biggest concerns with Diaco's defense was with defending spread offenses, and I'm glad to see that we're putting such an emphasis on these sub packages for passing downs. I actually posted multiple times about how I could never comprehend the old Fox/Calabrese duo on the field on 3rd and long, as I thought our MLB play last year killed us in the pass game. I would have much rather seen any backup CB or S out there over those two. I think the only time that Diaco's D really held up against a strong spread IMO was the OU game in 2012 when Spond was great in coverage and we were generating a pass rush with 3 to 4 guys.

I forget if it was the Michigan or Pitt game (I think it was one of our crappy losses...maybe it was Purdue since that felt like a loss) where Ishaq let up a 21 yard pass on a 3rd and 20. Someone like Ishaq should only be rushing the passer in that situation, I wouldn't even want him in a shallow zone let alone in 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage.

 

[Cackalacky]

One of my biggest concerns with Diaco's defense was with defending spread offenses, and I'm glad to see that we're putting such an emphasis on these sub packages for passing downs. I actually posted multiple times about how I could never comprehend the old Fox/Calabrese duo on the field on 3rd and long, as I thought our MLB play last year killed us in the pass game. I would have much rather seen any backup CB or S out there over those two. I think the only time that Diaco's D really held up against a strong spread IMO was the OU game in 2012 when Spond was great in coverage and we were generating a pass rush with 3 to 4 guys.

I forget if it was the Michigan or Pitt game (I think it was one of our crappy losses...maybe it was Purdue since that felt like a loss) where Ishaq let up a 21 yard pass on a 3rd and 20. Someone like Ishaq should only be rushing the passer in that situation, I wouldn't even want him in a shallow zone let alone in 20 yards away from the line of scrimmage.

Agree on all points. Diaco's defense was a top 10 scoring defense from 2010-2013 but for the life of me I will never understand what Ishaq was doing 10 yards off the line of scrimmage defending a 3rd and 20 obvious passing play. I think it was the Pitt game because that was such a travesty of a game it had to be that one...lol.

I look for us to have more athletes on the field this year. I would think that with our current DB depth and adding Turner and Onwualu (tweeners) to a hybrid LB/S we should see a better ability to defend the spread.

 

[chicago51]

Sub packages is the name of the game if you want to be a high level defense.

Which is why Nick Saban hates the hurry up so damn much. He is the master of sub packages and he gets so pissed when he can't his desired group on the field.

Because of the hurry up I think we will see more teams go with hybrid defenses as their base defense as in the modern football world with no huddle offenses with rules that favor the offense you have to be able to defend multiple looks with your base personnel.

I think the best way to beat the sub packages is go with big versatile TEs that are a match up problem for LBs in coverage yet if you go with extra DBs they will be able to block and manhandle them in the run game.

Of course if Kam Chancellor is your safety then my last paragraph doesn't pan out.

I think in the future we will see more 4-2-5 looks, really more of a 4-2-1*-4 look where the 1*guy is about 6-2, 210 lbs with pretty decent speed. A 40/60 split LB to DB ration.

 

[IrishLion]

I think the great part about ND's roster in particular is that you can use so many safeties in so many different ways, which really helps the flexibility of what BVG can do against differing offenses.

You've got Collinsworth and Redfield deep, so you can use Hardy, Shumate, Farley or Barratti as a tweener/"star" type of player in the slot for help in the run game, but also a bump in coverage over a traditional LB.

I'm really hoping that playing against spread teams, our base D will be a nickel package with Shumate in the slot (if Collinsworth sticks at safety). He was lights-out at nickel as a freshman.

 

[chicago51]

Some teams like TCU are big on this simplicity vs multipicility. Although TCU hasn't been super successful in the big 12 just yet their D is one of the better one's in the conference. Count me as one of those who believe in the concept.

Story from coaching jr. high that is relative to this topic.

Believe it or not more and more jr. high teams have been running the spread (well at least spread formations if not the actual spread).

We run what is essentially a 3-4 sometimes we call it a 5-2 but is pretty 3-4 at the end of the day. We have been running a nickel (4-2-5 or 2-4-5 depending on what you consider the stand up OLBs who almost always rush for us) for some time now as well.

The issue for us is we don't have a bunch of assistant coaches and GAs to tell us what package the offense is putting in and sometimes the teams are vesatile enough they don't have to. We tried to guess based on down and distance and other traditional indicators on what the offense might do. Sometimes though we'd be stuck in a base look against 4 WRs basically had to just play straight man.

So what we started doing in 2012 and really went full board on in 2013 is having versatile tweener type players on the field. We made sure we had 1-2 versatile kids on the field at all times like a quick LB that could play safety and quicker DT that could step out and be an outside rusher.

This approach has worked wonders for us as even though we don't get anywhere near the practice time higher levels of football get it is really easy for us to check to a different defense based on what formation the offense comes out in and we can do it with substituting.

So now insted of getting caught in base against a 4 wide look we can play a 4-2 type nickel package and if Jimmy or Johnny on the other team is a stud WR that we can't cover 1 on 1 we got options now instead of being basically stuck in straight man.

 

[Cackalacky]

OFD Films: Finding a Nickel Package Built Around Jaylon Smith - One Foot Down
Posted in th eSpring Practice thread as well but a very good discussion on the nickle package (or lack thereof) last year.

Maybe OFD could look at Dimes as well (wink wink nudge nudge).

With Smith as the Mike and a tweener as the Will and the extra DBs, I think we could have much better success on 3rd and longs. Smiths athleticism mixed with extra coverage ability should be tough.

 

[IrishLion]

Dang.

I thought this thread would be a fight over whether Subway, Quizno's, Jimmy John's or Davanni's was the best.



I like Davanni's.

None of the above. Jersey Mike's is where it's at.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

OFD Films: Finding a Nickel Package Built Around Jaylon Smith - One Foot Down
Posted in th eSpring Practice thread as well but a very good discussion on the nickle package (or lack thereof) last year.

Maybe OFD could look at Dimes as well (wink wink nudge nudge).

With Smith as the Mike and a tweener as the Will and the extra DBs, I think we could have much better success on 3rd and longs. Smiths athleticism mixed with extra coverage ability should be tough.

One Foot Down had a great article; I think the salient points as to what sub packages end up where, has to do with the offenses tendencies teams ND play, use. But for some reason, (the article points out) last year ND didn't even have a decent nickel.

 

[Cackalacky]

One Foot Down had a great article that was quoted in the spring thread. I think the salient point as to what the sub packages end up as, has to do with the offenses teams ND play, use. But for some reason, last year ND didn't even have a decent nickel.

OFD Films: Finding a Nickel Package Built Around Jaylon Smith - One Foot Down

Look 2 posts up big cat....

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Look 2 posts up big cat....

Man you were sitting on my post. No mas. I changed it! LOL

 

[chicago51]

Hopefully ND developes a much better nickel package. The star DB package works very well against option packages which unfortunately was a problem at times.

 

[dshans]

None of the above. Jersey Mike's is where it's at.

There was a sub shop in Minneapolis simply called Mike's some years back. It was, sadly, only open for two or three years. They didn't bat an eyelash when I asked for a sub with rare roast beef, provolone and a sprinkling of finely shredded lettuce along with an understated vinaigrette and a healthy smear of horseradish.

Unfortunately they were located on a corner in a part of town where parking is at a premium. No parking lot, no drive-thru and no delivery. I drove by without stopping many times because there was no place to park within four blocks. This can be a big downer in Minneapolis from November through April.

It was all in the bread. It was delectable. Whether they made it themselves or farmed it out to a nearby artisan bakery I don't know. It complemented and complimented the fillings with a soft and buttery flavor.



[Sorry, once again, for the diversion.]