ND MBB 2013-14 season

[irishfan]

How can someone justify that he keep his job when he is the ONLY coach in the country to never win any meaningful tourney game?

I justify it, because I honestly don't think there are many coaches who would come here who would do a better job (apart from maybe someone using this job as a springboard), and I think there are many that would do a much worse job.

I think we're the Vandy of SEC football in terms of ACC basketball. I posted earlier that I think this is the 12th best job in the ACC. We make the tourney pretty much every year. We're not going to this year, but we also lost our best player halfway through the year (Grant was putting up Hansbrough numbers!) and we're in a brand new conference. I really think with Brey we're going to be a pretty consistent (#5-#8 seed) and a team that can pretty much beat or lose to anyone on any given night. I don't think its realistic to expect more than that, this isn't a basketball school.

 

[gkIrish]

Also, Pitt pays Dixon ~$1.6M per season. Brey gets under $600k from ND and about $500k from endorsements. Other posters have referenced pay, and we won't win with anyone else without pumping more money into a program that probably loses money for the university.

I'm not debating you on the administration. I think we agree that the administration doesn't support the program enough.

I care because I don't want a bunch of grass-is-greener fans running off a great coach and turning the program into a pile of crap. I remember BC fans lamenting Skinner, which led to the hiring of Donahue. Donahue has BC in the bottom of the ACC while Skinner regularly took BC to the tourney. I could give you more examples if you wish.

If you're suggesting I'm a grass-is-greener fan then you couldn't be more wrong. He's not a great coach by any standard. He's never won a Big East tournament. He's never won a Big East regular season title. In the last decade, he's played to his seed ONCE in the tournament. Skinner went 14-17 and 15-16 in two of his last three seasons at BC. His lack of postseason success almost mirrors Brey perfectly. Just because Steve Donahue isn't a good coach, doesn't mean Brey's replacement will also suck. John Groce has been great at Illinois, for example.

Compared to other schools, we spend a decent amount on those programs. That's why they succeed.

And how many schools truly are hockey, soccer, or lacrosse schools? Not many. It's pretty easy to become competitive in that sort of environment, especially when there's a lack of spending escalation in these non-money programs. I.e., you're comparing apples to oranges with this comparison.

My point is that you don't have to be a basketball school in order to have high expectations for your non-football sports programs. Your expectations for basketball are the same expectations schools like Seton Hall and Xavier have for their programs and they don't have football teams. Mediocrity.

I agree Marshall would succeed here, but that's not a sure thing. He's doing well at a mid-major. That doesn't guarantee success at as a HC in a major conference. Just look at his predecessor Mark Turgeon. He couldn't get TA&M out of the second round and can't get Maryland into the tourney. Most would claim it's far easier to succeed at Maryland too.

Mark Fox produced winners every year at Nevada, yet only made one tourney at Georgia in four years and likely won't make the tourney this year either.

Brian Gregory isn't exactly a flash in the pan. He also worked as an assistant for Izzo. BUT he's struggling at GT, which has better resources and a location to succeed in bball than ND.

Iowa's McCaffery had three solid years of success at Siena, and year 4 at Iowa is the first year of any true success.

If I could guarantee you that X coach would do well than I should go play the lottery. You can't be afraid to change your coach just because some other coaches haven't succeeded. You know what you're going to get with Brey. And I have higher aspirations for this team than what I know Brey will give us. You have to take some risks. If the next coach fails, we'll make another change. It doesn't matter because neither Brey or the potential bad next coach will win any postseason games.

I meant that in respect to coaches. I don't view Cronin as an upgrade, which means we'd waste money on hiring him at a higher rate.

Mick Cronin overachieves. His players play with energy and heart. He's young. All reasons to think he would do better here than Brey.

He has a history of winning CoY. He won it in 1998 for the America East Conf. He won CoY 3 times for the BE. And Nat'l COY in 2011 from a bunch of different publications. One publication named him nat'l CoY in 2012 too.

Completely unresponsive to my post. I told you why he won COY. It's because we were criminally underrated by other coaches/media. The season he won National COY we lost in the second round of the tournament as a #2 seed with the most talent/experience ND has had in the last 20 years. He got outcoached badly. How many road games against seeded teams has he won? Not many (Pitt in 2011 comes to mind). Winning home games against high seeds is nice, but a lot of teams do that. The mark of a great coach IMO is by how many road games he wins and how he does in the tournament. These are the games where coaching/strategy come into play the most.

You're a bit inconsistent. Enfield is a flash in the pan his first year, yet Graves gets a pass because it's South Alabama. They managed to make the the post season last year.

Inconsistent? Enfield is the definition of a flash in the pan because he had ONE good season. He had absolutely no success prior to that. My support of Graves has nothing to do with his head coaching resume because he literally just started coaching this season. It has to do with his experience at Butler. USC's hiring of Enfield was moronic because he has only had one good season. I'm not advocating we hire a head coach at a mid-major with one good season. I want a proven mid-major coach or a proven assistant at a great basketball program.

 

[gkIrish]

I justify it, because I honestly don't think there are many coaches who would come here who would do a better job (apart from maybe someone using this job as a springboard), and I think there are many that would do a much worse job.

I think we're the Vandy of SEC football in terms of ACC basketball. I posted earlier that I think this is the 12th best job in the ACC. We make the tourney pretty much every year. We're not going to this year, but we also lost our best player halfway through the year (Grant was putting up Hansbrough numbers!) and we're in a brand new conference. I really think with Brey we're going to be a pretty consistent (#5-#8 seed) and a team that can pretty much beat or lose to anyone on any given night. I don't think its realistic to expect more than that, this isn't a basketball school.

We lost to North Dakota St. (at home), Indiana St. (at home), and a few other games with Grant. We almost certainly weren't going to make the tournament this year anyway.

Why is everyone afraid to make a coaching change because we MIGHT be worse with a new coach? That's not a winner's mentality. Ohio St. would have fired Thad Motta 5 years ago with Brey's resume. What do we have to lose? Maybe a few more regular season games? So what...

 

[NCDomer]

Third time you're ignoring the question.

"Name me one other coach for any major conference team who has been with that same team the last ten seasons and has not made a sweet sixteen OR won more than two total games in the NCAA tournament in those ten years."

I'll answer it for you. Zero. None. Zilch. Nada. Mike Brey is literally in a class of his own in terms of postseason futility. How can someone justify that he keep his job when he is the ONLY coach in the country to never win any meaningful tourney game?

That's not really a question. It's more of a demand, which is probably why you didn't use a question mark.

Additionally, it's a rather peculiar demand at that. Here's a list of all the coaches with at least 10 years at their current schools:

Rick Barnes
Bill Self
Scott Drew - 2 Elight 8s, but only 3 tourney appearances in the last decade. He has built the program at Baylor, so this isn't really a knock on him.
Boeheim
Pitino
Jay Wright
Dixon
Thompson III - will hit the mark this year.
Izzo
Bo Ryan
Matta - will hit the mark this year
Painter - isn't far off 10 years.
Lorenzo Romar - 3 Sweet 16s, 2 were from 9 and 10 years ago. 6 tourney appearances over last 10 years.
Billy D
Kevin Stallings - 2 Sweet 16s, one of which is from 10 years ago. He's only made the tourney 5 times in the last decade.
Coach K
Leonard Hamilton - he only has 1 Sweet 16 and only made the NCAA tourney 4 times in the last decade
Roy Williams

You say Brey is in a class of his own. I'd say he's in some pretty good company. He consistently gets ND into the NCAA tourney. That gives his team a shot. That's what consistently winning does.

 

[gkIrish]

That's not really a question. It's more of a demand, which is probably why you didn't use a question mark.

Additionally, it's a rather peculiar demand at that. Here's a list of all the coaches with at least 10 years at their current schools:

Rick Barnes
Bill Self
Scott Drew - 2 Elight 8s, but only 3 tourney appearances in the last decade. He has built the program at Baylor, so this isn't really a knock on him.
Boeheim
Pitino
Jay Wright
Dixon
Thompson III - will hit the mark this year.
Izzo
Bo Ryan
Matta - will hit the mark this year
Painter - isn't far off 10 years.
Lorenzo Romar - 3 Sweet 16s, 2 were from 9 and 10 years ago. 6 tourney appearances over last 10 years.
Billy D
Kevin Stallings - 2 Sweet 16s, one of which is from 10 years ago. He's only made the tourney 5 times in the last decade.
Coach K
Leonard Hamilton - he only has 1 Sweet 16 and only made the NCAA tourney 4 times in the last decade
Roy Williams

You say Brey is in a class of his own. I'd say he's in some pretty good company. He consistently gets ND into the NCAA tourney. That gives his team a shot. That's what consistently winning does.

Other than Leonard Hamilton (who should also be fired) and Rick Barnes (who is a notorious underachiever), and maybe Romar, do you honestly believe Mike Brey is anywhere near as good a coach as any of the guys on that list? If so, we have nothing more to discuss.

 

[irishfan]

Other than Leonard Hamilton (who should also be fired) and Rick Barnes (who is a notorious underachiever), and maybe Romar, do you honestly believe Mike Brey is anywhere near as good a coach as any of the guys on that list? If so, we have nothing more to discuss.

Do you honestly think we're going to get a coach to come here who is as good as these guys?

I love ND but why would you want to coach basketball here if you don't have any tie to the school? You're hamstrung from the start. Academics, football-first school, crappy location, even crappier location considering were a Midwest school players Atlantic coast teams.

 

[IrishLax]

I think I've said this before, but to me it's simple:
1. If you're going to invest a ton of money in the program, then you fire Brey and go all in with someone you think might win you a championship.
2. If you're going to keep the program at status quo, then you absolutely hang on to Brey and hope for the best.

 

[gkIrish]

Do you honestly think we're going to get a coach to come here who is as good as these guys?

Jesus Christ. I'm not advocating we hire Roy Williams. That's impossible. I'm advocating we hire someone with the potential to be a great coach for our school based on their exceptional performance at a mid-major or their experience as an associate head coach under a great coach.

Illinois is a good model. They hired John Groce from Ohio. All I'm asking is that we take a chance on someone like that. If it doesn't work out, not the big of a deal as it's not really different than the status quo. But hey, maybe they will make a sweet sixteen once every 3 years. Or maybe we make a nice run into the Elite Eight once every five.

I've also completed avoided talking about Mike Brey as a person, but that's a big part of my dislike. He's a womanizer and an asshole to everyone. I'll PM a couple people my source if you doubt me.

 

[Woneone]

Jesus Christ. I'm not advocating we hire Roy Williams. That's impossible. I'm advocating we hire someone with the potential to be a great coach for our school based on their exceptional performance at a mid-major or their experience as an associate head coach under a great coach.

Illinois is a good model. They hired John Groce from Ohio. All I'm asking is that we take a chance on someone like that. If it doesn't work out, not the big of a deal as it's not really different than the status quo. But hey, maybe they will make a sweet sixteen once every 3 years. Or maybe we make a nice run into the Elite Eight once every five.

I've also completed avoided talking about Mike Brey as a person, but that's a big part of my dislike. He's a womanizer and an asshole to everyone. I'll PM a couple people my source if you doubt me.

Anytime you make a coaching change, it isn't just about the coach you bring in. It's about the infrastructure and support group associated with the program. Notre Dame's infrastructure for their basketball programs flat out sucks.

Fire Brey. Go for it. I don't think anyone would fight you on it. Disagree? Some would. But no one would sit there and go, "Huh, that was out of left field...".

But, you won't get an accomplished coach here. They are accomplished for a reason. One look at what they have to work with just from a Facilities standpoint and they won't be able to leave fast enough.

Notre Dame's men's basketball position is not a Vertical Climb for most coaches. Hell, it's not Horizontal for most.

What do you end up with? A no name coach from a little school trying to sell a sport where the administration hasn't shown even an ounce of caring to potential recruits.

"Hey, come play for me. I know you don't know who I am, and we basically practice in a rec center. Our strength and conditioning coach is also an assistant on the Bowling team, but still. We have Under Armor!"

Also, Scott Drew is the worst coach in the country. But it's amazing what being able to sell a "program" can do.

Scott Drew Baylor Career:
2003–04 Baylor 8–21
2004–05 Baylor 9–19
2005–06 Baylor 4–13
2006–07 Baylor 15–16
2007–08 Baylor 21–11
2008–09 Baylor 24–15
2009–10 Baylor 28–8 1
2010–11 Baylor 18–13
2011–12 Baylor 30–8
2012–13 Baylor 22–14

Between 2006 and 2007?

"A 43,000 sq ft (4,000 m2) basketball practice facility was constructed in 2006 on the north west side of the building. It contains 2 full practice courts, a strength and conditioning center, and new offices for the men and women's basketball staff."

Blame Brey all you won't, but don't expect things to change in this climate.

 

[gkIrish]

Blame Brey all you won't, but don't expect things to change in this climate.

I completely agree that the infrastructure needs to change. But that doesn't mean that Brey should keep his job. The last thing you want is for your coaches to lack fear of being fired. That's how he coaches.

If you just WATCH the games, how does anyone think he is a good coach. Terrible time management, terrible rotations/minutes allocation. Plays guys for two games then sits them for two games. Sticks to his gameplan no matter how poorly the team is performing, etc..

 

[Woneone]

I know someone earlier in this thread said something about Sherman being a good passer.

Just..just no.

 

[clashmore_mike]

He's not very strong with the ball at all. Also appears he has never played through a double team, sheesh.

 

[Woneone]

gK, I'll give you this, I just don't understand the rotation...

Auguste gets 2 boards, a hustle play and a bucket.

Sherman has 2 turnovers, gets blocked, and a foul.

They pull Auguste and put Knight in.

 

[clashmore_mike]

Auguste struggles offensively unless it's a wide open look underneath. The team is so offensively challenged its hard to leave him in there. Granted knight isn't a huge offensive force but he can hold on to the ball and knock down a jump shot occasionally.

 

[clashmore_mike]

Jackson playing really aggressive has ND on a 9-0 run.

 

[Woneone]

Auguste struggles offensively unless it's a wide open look underneath. The team is so offensively challenged its hard to leave him in there. Granted knight isn't a huge offensive force but he can hold on to the ball and knock down a jump shot occasionally.

I agree, but he was, early, the ony aggresive player (his drive to the hope was great, until, you know, he missed the lay-up. DUNK THE BALL!).

It's like watching Dusty Baker manage the Reds. Hot hand? Na, the other guy is due.

Anyway, great move by Brey at the end of the half (and I think an overdue one). When Atkins and DJ are on the court at the same time, put DJ at the point and let him be aggressive.

 

[Woneone]

And on the previous conversation about firing Brey, I found this post on NDNation (I know, I showered after. Actually, I find their basketball boards very good most the time, and their Political board at least makes me laugh).

A Quick Easy Guide to What We're Up Against Facilities Wise

That about sums up our comittment to basketball.

 

[anarin]

Notre Dame has become the Depaul of the ACC.

Great job guys...

 

[Ignats]

Sherman.. unreal. I've said it all year long but this guy is looking to shoot and not pass on 90% of his post touches. I'm frankly shocked teams haven't doubled him until now.

This team makes me sad. We've taken a program that was #4 in the country 3 years ago to a low-seeded NIT team.

 

[gkIrish]

Sherman.. unreal. I've said it all year long but this guy is looking to shoot and not pass on 90% of his post touches. I'm frankly shocked teams haven't doubled him until now.

This team makes me sad. We've taken a program that was #4 in the country 3 years ago to a low-seeded NIT team.

I'll bet you 10 million vbucks they don't make the NIT

Edit: you don't have that much money. So Gentleman's bet?

 

[NDPhilly]

Honestly the worst game I've ever watched.

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

I'll bet you 10 million vbucks they don't make the NIT

Edit: you don't have that much money. So Gentleman's bet?

Whats the likelihood Brey gets fired?

 

[anarin]

Whats the likelihood Brey gets fired?

This year? Not happening

 

[ShawneeIrish]

Just an awful offensive performance tonight. Tons of turnovers, few good shots. This has been the worst performance of the year from a team that has been very disappointing.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Whats the likelihood Brey gets fired?

Sadly, it probably requires a live boy/dead girl scenario.

Notre Dame Fighting Irish announce 10-year deal with Mike Brey - ESPN

 

[irishff1014]

HAHA 38 points wow that says it all folks!

 

[Ignats]

I'll bet you 10 million vbucks they don't make the NIT

Edit: you don't have that much money. So Gentleman's bet?

Haha I think I'll pass on the bet. When I thought about it, you actually need to have a decent conference record to make the NIT which at 2-6, we aren't on that pace. At this point it would take a lot to get there, which is pathetic, even with Grant out.

 

[gkIrish]

Open bet to anyone. Up to 100,000,000 vbucks. I bet we don't make the NIT. I'll give 2/1 odds

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Ugh. So, ND will probably be the favorite in 3(?) of their remaining 10 games?

Home Games:

BC (yes)
UNC (no)
Clemson (no)
GTEch (maybe)
Pitt (no)

Away Games:
Syracuse (no)
BC (yes)
Miami (maybe)
Virginia (no)
UNC (no)

Hooray for Boston College.

 

[NDPhilly]

Biedschied and Grant totally fucked us.