Upshot for the Rest of the Class (2014 Edition)

[Cackalacky]

There is a 0 percent chance Lombard isn't asked back IMO.

So there is a 100% chance he is asked back?

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

How many 5th years spots are there if we taken 4 more recruits?

 

[IrishLax]

Does this mean only two 5th years were offered to return? Lombard and Moore?

No, 4 takes would mean 3 5th years asked back with the odd man out being Utupo (for all practical applications, it would mean all 5th years asked back with them banking on a transfer). My math might be off by 1 here, and 4 might mean all 4 come back. Will have to double check this later.

Niklas leaving really threw the numbers out of whack in a very bad way. Was not expected to leave as it made no sense for him to leave AND he indicated to everyone that he would be back. So now the '15 class gets constricted by another scholarship if you try to take another in this class... or Option B is to pass and play down a scholly this year. Heading into this stretch, the coaches assumed they would have one scholarship to hand out to an explosive skill position player and that would be it for the class.

Then Dickerson defected (huge loss of a player the staff LOVED at a position of need), GAIII left (not the worst things in the world), and Niklas left (close to the worst thing in the world). So the staff is probably looking at 1 explosive skill position player, 1 DB (Terrence Alexander), 1 DT, and then another DT (or best available). 1 DT is an absolute must get, and 1 explosive skill position player is a very big need but not the end of the world.

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Teamed up with <a href="https://twitter.com/SWiltfong247">@SWiltfong247</a> for another Tunnel Vision. All the <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23NotreDame&src=hash">#NotreDame</a> Recruiting Scoop you can handle! <a href="http://t.co/QYqQbIrqdG">http://t.co/QYqQbIrqdG</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23IRISH&src=hash">#IRISH</a></p>— Tom Loy (@TomLoy247) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomLoy247/statuses/423121938760732672">January 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Bogtrotter07]

There is a 0 percent chance Lombard isn't asked back IMO.

How is his knee? Better yet, how is everybody?

Thread to discuss health of players: http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/notre-dame-football/189400-focus-athletes-returing-injury.html

 

[Ironman8]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Irish CB target... RT <a href="https://twitter.com/MikeCoppage">@MikeCoppage</a> Stanford has an in-home visit with DB target Terrence Alexander set this week.</p>— Anna Hickey (@AnnaHScout) <a href="https://twitter.com/AnnaHScout/statuses/423123361019867137">January 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[Brooklyn]

We have 7 scholarships right now available. That means 3 5th year guys out of these options:

Christian Lombard
Austin Collinsworth
Kendall Moore
Justin Utupo
Luke Massa
Bruce Heggie

My guess the 1st three are asked back. Utupo might have a spot if there is a transfer that we don't know about yet.

 

[dublinirish]

daniel smith didnt redshirt i dont think

 

[Brooklyn]

daniel smith didnt redshirt i dont think

Fixed. Wasn't sure on him.

 

[dwshade]

We have 7 scholarships right now available. That means 3 5th year guys out of these options:

Christian Lombard
Austin Collinsworth
Kendall Moore
Justin Utupo
Luke Massa
Bruce Heggie

My guess the 1st three are asked back. Utupo might have a spot if there is a transfer that we don't know about yet.

Kelly said today on Bill King's show that 4 5th years have been asked back and we are looking to add 4 more recruits.

 

[Brooklyn]

Kelly said today on Bill King's show that 4 5th years have been asked back and we are looking to add 4 more recruits.

Then other Joe Schmidt isn't on scholarship this year or an unannounced transfer/medical scholarship is happening.

 

[Ironman8]

II has confirmed 3 of the 4 5th years are Lombard, Collinsworth and Moore. Believes Utupo is the 4th, but hasn't confirmed that one.

 

[IrishLax]

Kelly said today on Bill King's show that 4 5th years have been asked back and we are looking to add 4 more recruits.

Then other Joe Schmidt isn't on scholarship this year or an unannounced transfer/medical scholarship is happening.

The issue comes from "looking to add 4 more recruits." Yes, 4+4 puts us over by one. But looking add 4 and coming up one short would put us at 7. Coming in at 8 means you "oversign" by one and wait for the imminent transfer or as a last ditch effort push out a 5th year or take back a scholarship from Schmidt. This almost surely will not happen, but if it did the only two candidates would be Utupo and Collinsworth who could get potentially flexed out were Notre Dame to oversign and land premium players at their position (i.e. Holley + Juju). Moore and Lombard are stone cold locked in and there is not a player who could even hypothetically take their place.

 

[dwshade]

TJ from II says we would like to add 4 more recruits if they are the right guys. If we do Utupo would be the odd man out unless something else opened up.

 

[woolybug25]

The issue comes from "looking to add 4 more recruits." Yes, 4+4 puts us over by one. But looking add 4 and coming up one short would put us at 7. Coming in at 8 means you "oversign" by one and wait for the imminent transfer or as a last ditch effort push out a 5th year or take back a scholarship from Schmidt. This almost surely will not happen, but if it did the only two candidates would be Utupo and Collinsworth who could get potentially flexed out were Notre Dame to oversign and land premium players at their position (i.e. Holley + Juju). Moore and Lombard are stone cold locked in and there is not a player who could even hypothetically take their place.

I'm hoping this is the "oversigning to attrition" BK talked about before. We technically have until they enroll to figure out the numbers. In years past, this has always worked itself out. I would rather have them gamble with a 5th year then ending up not having a full roster.

I think you're right though. That "4th recruit" would probably have to be Holly or JuJu to make it worth the risk.

 

[koonja]

Scout $ for new 'big board for DL'

http://notredame.scout.com/a.z?s=10...URL=http://notredame.scout.com/2/1365801.html

 

[jmurphy75]

Scout $ for new 'big board for DL'

Scout.com: Irish in hot pursuit to add interior linemen

nothing we don't already know

 

[IrishLax]

Interesting quote from Mike Frank, really echos what some have been saying on here:

I think Brian Kelly needs to learn that you have to over-recruit at ND. Especially with how entitled today's youth is, and how instant gratification always seems to be chosen over the hard road anymore. You can't continue to get caught with surprises.

Anyone wish Payton Hendrix was accepted? I do.

This is two years in a row without an elite recruit at NG. I realize that VanGorder may not run a 3-4, and we may see more of a 4-3 moving forward, but you still need to sign some elite talent, regardless of scheme.

I, personally, don't think any of those on the board have near the talent of Dickerson. Holley has potential, but does he want to play hard like Dickerson?

I really think BK needs to recruit as he's going to oversign by 3 players. At least one always falls out in January. At least one other gets a medical in spring or fall camp. Then there are the surprise declarations to the draft. If the program continues to rise, there will certainly be more of this stuff coming in the future.

The problem is, as I see it, is ND is tough place to commit to. It's the "hard road." And if things don't go well during the season, more commits are going to be less likely to take the hard road when all is said and done.

It's the last month when the stress is high, the negative recruiting comes out in full force, poaching season arrives and coaches start casting doubt into decisions.

BK and his staff seem to be able to hold onto almost all of them, but even losing one hurts, especially if it's at a need position like NG.

Dickerson shouldn't have been the only NG prospect to sign, in my opinion, because you lost your guy last year. Needed to sign two and recruit as such. When you have a big need, you need to oversign in case someone falls off at the end.

For my money though, I'm not sure this is a Brian Kelly problem. I think it might've been a Diaco problem. Numbers have always been fine on offense, yet on defense some years Diaco has been so incredibly picky at interior DL and inside linebacker that we come up empty handed. I think part of the problem was recruiting to his 3-4... high school kids really don't want to play on the inside there on the DL. They just really, really don't. Another problem was that he was so set on finding Raekwon McMillan or Alex Anlazone style gigantic + athletic inside linebackers that he simply didn't offer "good" players who could be contingency plans.

I definitely agree with Frank that none of these guys on the board have the upside of Dickerson. But isn't that kind of the point? Don't recruit just to your "need"... recruit past that. If you're showing interest to these guys all along and saying things like "we really want you, and we're going to keep recruiting you, but we're full right now so we have to wait for a spot to open up" then you have a MUCH better chance of a late add.

I disagree with him on Hendrix. He was passed on because the staff feels fine with their safeties and didn't think he was good enough to be a must take. Safety is not a depth concern. You don't just take people to take people... and if they did, then they'd be in a real numbers bind right now looking for actual needs like DT and explosive skill player. So telling him that he could commit later if there was room was the right way to play it.

 

[IrishLax]

Updated OP to reflect developments. Not adding any DTs until someone schedules a visit.

 

[Wild Bill]

Interesting quote from Mike Frank, really echos what some have been saying on here:

For my money though, I'm not sure this is a Brian Kelly problem. I think it might've been a Diaco problem. Numbers have always been fine on offense, yet on defense some years Diaco has been so incredibly picky at interior DL and inside linebacker that we come up empty handed. I think part of the problem was recruiting to his 3-4... high school kids really don't want to play on the inside there on the DL. They just really, really don't. Another problem was that he was so set on finding Raekwon McMillan or Alex Anlazone style gigantic + athletic inside linebackers that he simply didn't offer "good" players who could be contingency plans.

Even if high school kids loved playing inside, it's extremely difficult to find a high school kid with the build required to play a two gap nose or, like you said, a linebacker the size of McMillan. And if they have the build, it's difficult to project how their bodies will develop and are typically high ceiling/low floor type of guys, i.e., Elam. Quick, one-gap lineman and smaller stature linebackers that can scrape and pursue are just easier to find.

Here's another thing, we're striking out with defensive tackles in Cali. I know you have been a huge proponent of avoiding certain types of west coast recruits. While I tend to disagree, I think the staff should have taken distance into account in this cycle. I think Dickerson will be great, assuming he gets healthy, and I don't question the offer. I do, however, question why we didn't pursue local talent a little harder. The midwest didn't have much interior defensive line talent but there were some names out there that fell off quick, namely Enoch Smith and Malik McDowell (not a DT but still a big body).

 

[Irish8248]

i posted somewhere a list of about 13 names that we offered and recruited this cycle at the DT position -- you cant force people to come here. If anything, I think our recruiting pitch should be examined. There has to be a reason why DTs do not want to come to ND, simply suggesting 'we dont offer enough prospects' isnt the right answer

 

[IrishLax]

i posted somewhere a list of about 13 names that we offered and recruited this cycle at the DT position -- you cant force people to come here. If anything, I think our recruiting pitch should be examined. There has to be a reason why DTs do not want to come to ND, simply suggesting 'we dont offer enough prospects' isnt the right answer

Can you post said list? How many of those have been very late offers? How many of those were guys we actually pushed for? How many of those guys did we keep contact with throughout the cycle?

 

[IrishLax]

Only prospects not rated a 4 by at least one service:
Bonner, Williams, Hill.

 

[koonja]

Only prospects not rated a 4 by at least one service:
Bonner, Williams, Hill.

I thought Bonner's film is pretty non-special to say the least, but I don't understand Hill's. Either I'm crazy, that film is sped up, or he's a high 4-star, low 5-star player.

 

[IrishLax]

I thought Bonner's film is pretty non-special to say the least, but I don't understand Hill's. Either I'm crazy, that film is sped up, or he's a high 4-star, low 5-star player.

Hill is undersized for a DE, and it's hard to really know how he is as a true linebacker. At the same time, I totally agree with you. Would be a top 200 prospect at minimum in my book. Similarly, Williams is also penalized as a late bloomer. Guy has freak upside if he backs on the weight.

Dickerson and Hill would've been the two prospects in our class I would've called legitimately "underrated." Then again, we'll see if Hill's size holds him back from being something special.

 

[koonja]

Hill is undersized for a DE, and it's hard to really know how he is as a true linebacker. At the same time, I totally agree with you. Would be a top 200 prospect at minimum in my book. Similarly, Williams is also penalized as a late bloomer. Guy has freak upside if he backs on the weight.

Dickerson and Hill would've been the two prospects in our class I would've called legitimately "underrated." Then again, we'll see if Hill's size holds him back from being something special.

I'll go ahead and say it because no one thinks jack about my 'evaluations', lol. If Hill ends up at LB, I'm not saying he will be for sure, but I could see him becoming a freak and ending up getting drafted really high to the NFL one day. Again, all about how he'd handle a position he probably hasn't played much, but the viciousness, speed, and hitting is insane to me for a 3-star player. If you blindly showed me his film next to Nyles Morgan's, I honestly wouldn't be able so pick and I'd have to re-watch, but I'd lean towards Hill's.

 

[IrishLax]

I'll go ahead and say it because no one thinks jack about my 'evaluations', lol. If Hill ends up at LB, I'm not saying he will be for sure, but I could see him becoming a freak and ending up getting drafted really high to the NFL one day. Again, all about how he'd handle a position he probably hasn't played much, but the viciousness, speed, and hitting is insane to me for a 3-star player. If you blindly showed me his film next to Nyles Morgan's, I honestly wouldn't be able so pick and I'd have to re-watch, but I'd lean towards Hill's.

The thing about Hill that is so awesome is how he uses his hands. For a LB, that can mean defeating blocks. And when you can take on and defeat blocks instead of trying to run under or over them... well, then you're a rare commodity. I totally agree that he could end up being the gem of this class when all is said and done. Especially in a SAM role for a 4-3.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I'll go ahead and say it because no one thinks jack about my 'evaluations', lol. If Hill ends up at LB, I'm not saying he will be for sure, but I could see him becoming a freak and ending up getting drafted really high to the NFL one day. Again, all about how he'd handle a position he probably hasn't played much, but the viciousness, speed, and hitting is insane to me for a 3-star player. If you blindly showed me his film next to Nyles Morgan's, I honestly wouldn't be able so pick and I'd have to re-watch, but I'd lean towards Hill's.

 

[Irish#1]

Hill is undersized for a DE, and it's hard to really know how he is as a true linebacker. At the same time, I totally agree with you. Would be a top 200 prospect at minimum in my book. Similarly, Williams is also penalized as a late bloomer. Guy has freak upside if he backs on the weight.

Dickerson and Hill would've been the two prospects in our class I would've called legitimately "underrated." Then again, we'll see if Hill's size holds him back from being something special.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

 

[Ironman8]

Looks like ND is back on the board for Malik McDowell. Sounds like ND is his Dad's preferred landing spot. Look to be in solid shape for a visit after he talked with Elston per 24/7.