Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

BobD

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Folks should worry about the corporation's that have a scary amount of info on you, more than the NSA. Well, unless you're a terrorist or criminal. I think it would surprise many to know just how much info is available on you to almost anyone.

Anyone see technology going in reverse? I don't. We've created a monster and its way to late to try and stop it. The best we can hope for is to leverage its power. Like it or not someone WILL and I'd rather it be our government holding the leash than China or India.

Hope for complete privacy online is way too late for most of us. There are some security and misinformation options. With the things we've learned hopefully future generations will learn from our mistakes and be way more conscious of the information entered into this big black hole.
 

BobD

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Oh and I forgot to say again: SNOWDEN IS A TRAITOR. :)
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Folks should worry about the corporation's that have a scary amount of info on you, more than the NSA. Well, unless you're a terrorist or criminal. I think it would surprise many to know just how much info is available on you to almost anyone.

Anyone see technology going in reverse? I don't. We've created a monster and its way to late to try and stop it. The best we can hope for is to leverage its power. Like it or not someone WILL and I'd rather it be our government holding the leash than China or India.

Hope for complete privacy online is way too late for most of us. There are some security and misinformation options. With the things we've learned hopefully future generations will learn from our mistakes and be way more conscious of the information entered into this big black hole.

Bob, it is one pool of data. The NSA is culling it and making it available. No one is saying, "This is wrong, we should stop!" So the keep dipping the beak. And you are right. Read about Chaos theory, wisdom of the crowd, and the algorithms developed by Google to take advantage of this information. It is clear that they need Big Brother to get them enough of what they need. No one has said, "What you're doing is illegal!" But it is. And now the NSA, which cooperated so nicely with its corporate partners, is turning on them.

On a different note, Bob, did you make it to the AFA game? How was it?
 

BobD

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On a different note, Bob, did you make it to the AFA game? How was it?

Unfortunately, no I didn't because of work. I'm going to see Danny at the Stanford game here in a few weeks. His last game.....where does time go? Praying for a miraculous win in Palo Alto.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Me to! Give him our best. Tell him that my seven year old, when he grew to understand Danny's story, named him his favorite ND linebacker this year. (Since four he has had a favorite ND linebacker. I don't ever remember how that started.) Te'o ~ Te'o ~ Fox ~ Spond (so far!)
 

phgreek

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Folks should worry about the corporation's that have a scary amount of info on you, more than the NSA. Well, unless you're a terrorist or criminal. I think it would surprise many to know just how much info is available on you to almost anyone.

Anyone see technology going in reverse? I don't. We've created a monster and its way to late to try and stop it. The best we can hope for is to leverage its power. Like it or not someone WILL and I'd rather it be our government holding the leash than China or India.

Hope for complete privacy online is way too late for most of us. There are some security and misinformation options. With the things we've learned hopefully future generations will learn from our mistakes and be way more conscious of the information entered into this big black hole.

...I don't know

When the neighbor's dog gets in my garbage and drags it around...I can shoot his a$$ with a paintball...when its my dogs, I actually have to be decent about it and discipline them, and reinforce training and crap...they gotta trust me because they are my hunting buddies...so the process is a bit more involved...and not really helpful to my anger in the moment of gathering up garbage...I don't feel so bad picking up garbage when I know my neighbor is steam cleaning her couch to get the blaze orange paint out...:)
 

Mr. McGibblets

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Some more news from the Washington Post:

The National Security Agency is gathering nearly 5 billion records a day on the whereabouts of cellphones around the world, according to top-secret documents and interviews with U.S. intelligence officials, enabling the agency to track the movements of individuals — and map their relationships — in ways that would have been previously unimaginable.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The records feed a vast database that stores information about the locations of at least hundreds of millions of devices, according to the officials and the documents, which were provided by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden. New projects created to analyze that data have provided the intelligence community with what amounts to a mass surveillance tool.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The NSA does not target Americans’ location data by design, but the agency acquires a substantial amount of information on the whereabouts of domestic cellphones “incidentally,” a legal term that connotes a foreseeable but not deliberate result. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
In scale, scope and potential impact on privacy, the efforts to collect and analyze location data may be unsurpassed among the NSA surveillance programs that have been disclosed since June. Analysts can find cellphones anywhere in the world, retrace their movements and expose hidden relationships among individuals using them. <o:p></o:p>

The rest of the story:

NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show - The Washington Post
 

phgreek

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hmmm...that again seems excessive, and has the potential to be abused...and if we are counting on folks in DC to exercise some restraint....WHATEVER. It won't be long now before these records are used by edict from a federal judge for a domestic case. The reasoning will seem compelling, but once the bubble is burst...look out. It will eventually be used to "create" associations for political purposes...or worse.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Spies Infiltrate a Fantasy Realm of Online Games

Not limiting their activities to the earthly realm, American and British spies have infiltrated the fantasy worlds of World of Warcraft and Second Life, conducting surveillance and scooping up data in the online games played by millions of people across the globe, according to newly disclosed classified documents.

Fearing that terrorist or criminal networks could use the games to communicate secretly, move money or plot attacks, the documents show, intelligence operatives have entered terrain populated by digital avatars that include elves, gnomes and supermodels.

The spies have created make-believe characters to snoop and to try to recruit informers, while also collecting data and contents of communications between players, according to the documents, disclosed by the former National Security Agency contractor Edward J. Snowden. Because militants often rely on features common to video games — fake identities, voice and text chats, a way to conduct financial transactions — American and British intelligence agencies worried that they might be operating there, according to the papers.

Online games might seem innocuous, a top-secret 2008 N.S.A. document warned, but they had the potential to be a “target-rich communication network” allowing intelligence suspects “a way to hide in plain sight.” Virtual games “are an opportunity!” another 2008 N.S.A. document declared.

But for all their enthusiasm — so many C.I.A., F.B.I. and Pentagon spies were hunting around in Second Life, the document noted, that a “deconfliction” group was needed to avoid collisions — the intelligence agencies may have inflated the threat. . . .

The NY Times and the Guardian have collaborated on a piece that just puts the spy game in perspective. Turns out fantasy movies are more realistic that the gritty spy thrillers.
 

phgreek

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The NY Times and the Guardian have collaborated on a piece that just puts the spy game in perspective. Turns out fantasy movies are more realistic that the gritty spy thrillers.

geez, and I was worried about my 30 something thoughts being foisted on me when I'm 60. This brings to light the fact that folks may get hung by their thoughts and activities as a 14 year old....NICE!
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Here is a different angle that blends nicely.

Stealing J. Edgar Hoover’s Secrets - Video - NYTimes.com

January 7, 2014
Burglars Who Took On F.B.I. Abandon Shadows

By MARK MAZZETTI

PHILADELPHIA — The perfect crime is far easier to pull off when nobody is watching.

So on a night nearly 43 years ago, while Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier bludgeoned each other over 15 rounds in a televised title bout viewed by millions around the world, burglars took a lock pick and a crowbar and broke into a Federal Bureau of Investigation office in a suburb of Philadelphia, making off with nearly every document inside.

They were never caught, and the stolen documents that they mailed anonymously to newspaper reporters were the first trickle of what would become a flood of revelations about extensive spying and dirty-tricks operations by the F.B.I. against dissident groups.

The burglary in Media, Pa., on March 8, 1971, is a historical echo today, as disclosures by the former National Security Agency contractor Edward J. Snowden have cast another unflattering light on government spying and opened a national debate about the proper limits of government surveillance. The burglars had, until now, maintained a vow of silence about their roles in the operation. They were content in knowing that their actions had dealt the first significant blow to an institution that had amassed enormous power and prestige during J. Edgar Hoover’s lengthy tenure as director.

“When you talked to people outside the movement about what the F.B.I. was doing, nobody wanted to believe it,” said one of the burglars, Keith Forsyth, who is finally going public about his involvement. “There was only one way to convince people that it was true, and that was to get it in their handwriting.”

Mr. Forsyth, now 63, and other members of the group can no longer be prosecuted for what happened that night, and they agreed to be interviewed before the release this week of a book written by one of the first journalists to receive the stolen documents. The author, Betty Medsger, a former reporter for The Washington Post, spent years sifting through the F.B.I.’s voluminous case file on the episode and persuaded five of the eight men and women who participated in the break-in to end their silence.

Unlike Mr. Snowden, who downloaded hundreds of thousands of digital N.S.A. files onto computer hard drives, the Media burglars did their work the 20th-century way: they cased the F.B.I. office for months, wore gloves as they packed the papers into suitcases, and loaded the suitcases into getaway cars. When the operation was over, they dispersed. Some remained committed to antiwar causes, while others, like John and Bonnie Raines, decided that the risky burglary would be their final act of protest against the Vietnam War and other government actions before they moved on with their lives.

“We didn’t need attention, because we had done what needed to be done,” said Mr. Raines, 80, who had, with his wife, arranged for family members to raise the couple’s three children if they were sent to prison. “The ’60s were over. We didn’t have to hold on to what we did back then.”

A Meticulous Plan

The burglary was the idea of William C. Davidon, a professor of physics at Haverford College and a fixture of antiwar protests in Philadelphia, a city that by the early 1970s had become a white-hot center of the peace movement. Mr. Davidon was frustrated that years of organized demonstrations seemed to have had little impact.

In the summer of 1970, months after President Richard M. Nixon announced the United States’ invasion of Cambodia, Mr. Davidon began assembling a team from a group of activists whose commitment and discretion he had come to trust.

The group — originally nine, before one member dropped out — concluded that it would be too risky to try to break into the F.B.I. office in downtown Philadelphia, where security was tight. They soon settled on the bureau’s satellite office in Media, in an apartment building across the street from the county courthouse.

That decision carried its own risks: Nobody could be certain whether the satellite office would have any documents about the F.B.I.’s surveillance of war protesters, or whether a security alarm would trip as soon as the burglars opened the door.

The group spent months casing the building, driving past it at all times of the night and memorizing the routines of its residents.

“We knew when people came home from work, when their lights went out, when they went to bed, when they woke up in the morning,” said Mr. Raines, who was a professor of religion at Temple University at the time. “We were quite certain that we understood the nightly activities in and around that building.”

But it wasn’t until Ms. Raines got inside the office that the group grew confident that it did not have a security system. Weeks before the burglary, she visited the office posing as a Swarthmore College student researching job opportunities for women at the F.B.I.

The burglary itself went off largely without a hitch, except for when Mr. Forsyth, the designated lock-picker, had to break into a different entrance than planned when he discovered that the F.B.I. had installed a lock on the main door that he could not pick. He used a crowbar to break the second lock, a deadbolt above the doorknob.

After packing the documents into suitcases, the burglars piled into getaway cars and rendezvoused at a farmhouse to sort through what they had stolen. To their relief, they soon discovered that the bulk of it was hard evidence of the F.B.I.’s spying on political groups. Identifying themselves as the Citizens’ Commission to Investigate the F.B.I., the burglars sent select documents to several newspaper reporters. Two weeks after the burglary, Ms. Medsger wrote the first article based on the files, after the Nixon administration tried unsuccessfully to get The Post to return the documents.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Other news organizations that had received the documents, including The New York Times, followed with their own reports.

Ms. Medsger’s article cited what was perhaps the most damning document from the cache, a 1970 memorandum that offered a glimpse into Hoover’s obsession with snuffing out dissent. The document urged agents to step up their interviews of antiwar activists and members of dissident student groups.
“It will enhance the paranoia endemic in these circles and will further serve to get the point across there is an F.B.I. agent behind every mailbox,” the message from F.B.I. headquarters said. Another document, signed by Hoover himself, revealed widespread F.B.I. surveillance of black student groups on college campuses.

But the document that would have the biggest impact on reining in the F.B.I.’s domestic spying activities was an internal routing slip, dated 1968, bearing a mysterious word: Cointelpro.

And that is the rest of the story . . .

Neither the Media burglars nor the reporters who received the documents understood the meaning of the term, and it was not until several years later, when the NBC News reporter Carl Stern obtained more files from the F.B.I. under the Freedom of Information Act, that the contours of Cointelpro — shorthand for Counterintelligence Program — were revealed.

Since 1956, the F.B.I. had carried out an expansive campaign to spy on civil rights leaders, political organizers and suspected Communists, and had tried to sow distrust among protest groups. Among the grim litany of revelations was a blackmail letter F.B.I. agents had sent anonymously to the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., threatening to expose his extramarital affairs if he did not commit suicide.

“It wasn’t just spying on Americans,” said Loch K. Johnson, a professor of public and international affairs at the University of Georgia who was an aide to Senator Frank Church, Democrat of Idaho. “The intent of Cointelpro was to destroy lives and ruin reputations.”

Senator Church’s investigation in the mid-1970s revealed still more about the extent of decades of F.B.I. abuses, and led to greater congressional oversight of the F.B.I. and other American intelligence agencies. The Church Committee’s final report about the domestic surveillance was blunt. “Too many people have been spied upon by too many government agencies, and too much information has been collected,” it read.

By the time the committee released its report, Hoover was dead and the empire he had built at the F.B.I. was being steadily dismantled. The roughly 200 agents he had assigned to investigate the Media burglary came back empty-handed, and the F.B.I. closed the case on March 11, 1976 — three days after the statute of limitations for burglary charges had expired.

Michael P. Kortan, a spokesman for the F.B.I., said that “a number of events during that era, including the Media burglary, contributed to changes to how the F.B.I. identified and addressed domestic security threats, leading to reform of the F.B.I.’s intelligence policies and practices and the creation of investigative guidelines by the Department of Justice.”

According to Ms. Medsger’s book, “The Burglary: The Discovery of J. Edgar Hoover’s Secret F.B.I.,” only one of the burglars was on the F.B.I.’s final list of possible suspects before the case was closed.

A Retreat Into Silence

The eight burglars rarely spoke to one another while the F.B.I. investigation was proceeding and never again met as a group.

Mr. Davidon died late last year from complications of Parkinson’s disease. He had planned to speak publicly about his role in the break-in, but three of the burglars have chosen to remain anonymous.
Among those who have come forward — Mr. Forsyth, the Raineses and a man named Bob Williamson — there is some wariness of how their decision will be viewed.

The passage of years has worn some of the edges off the once radical political views of John and Bonnie Raines. But they said they felt a kinship toward Mr. Snowden, whose revelations about N.S.A. spying they see as a bookend to their own disclosures so long ago.

They know some people will criticize them for having taken part in something that, if they had been caught and convicted, might have separated them from their children for years. But they insist they would never have joined the team of burglars had they not been convinced they would get away with it.

“It looks like we’re terribly reckless people,” Mr. Raines said. “But there was absolutely no one in Washington — senators, congressmen, even the president — who dared hold J. Edgar Hoover to accountability.”

“It became pretty obvious to us,” he said, “that if we don’t do it, nobody will.”

And that is the rest of the story . . .
 
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NDFan4Life

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Independent review board says NSA phone data program is illegal and should end
By Ellen Nakashima, Updated: Thursday, January 23, 12:28 PM

An independent executive branch board has concluded that the National Security Agency’s long-running program to collect billions of Americans’ phone records is illegal and should end.

In a strongly worded report to be issued Thursday, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB) said that the statute upon which the program was based, Section 215 of the USA Patriot Act, “does not provide an adequate basis to support this program.”

The board’s conclusion goes further than President Obama, who said in a speech Friday that he thought the NSA’s database of records should be moved out of government hands but did not call for an outright halt to the program. The board had shared its conclusions with Obama in the days leading up to his speech.

The divided panel also concluded that the program raises serious threats to civil liberties, has shown limited value in countering terrorism and is not sustainable from a policy perspective.

“We have not identified a single instance involving a threat to the United States in which the telephone records program made a concrete difference in the outcome of a counterterrorism investigation,” said the report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post. “Moreover, we are aware of no instance in which the program directly contributed to the discovery of a previously unknown terrorist plot or the disruption of a terrorist attack.”

The report is bound to spur further debate in an already charged environment in which many lawmakers are divided about the program’s value and legality. Two federal judges have issued conflicting opinions on the program’s constitutionality.

The 238-page report is arguably the most extensive analysis to date of the program’s statutory and constitutional underpinnings, as well as of its practical value.

It rejects the reasoning of at least 15 federal surveillance court judges and the Justice Department in saying that the program cannot be grounded in Section 215. That statute requires that records sought by the government — in this case phone numbers dialed, call times and durations, but not call content — be relevant to an authorized investigation.

But the board found that it is impossible that all the records collected — billions daily — could be relevant to a single investigation “without redefining that word in a manner that is circular, unlimited in scope.” Moreover, instead of compelling phone companies to turn over records already in their possession, the program requires them to furnish newly generated call data on a daily basis. “This is an approach lacking foundation in the statute,” the report said.

“At its core, the approach boils down to the proposition that essentially all telephone records are relevant to essentially all international terrorism investigations,” the report said. This approach, it said, “at minimum, is in deep tension with the statutory requirement that items obtained through a Section 215 order be sought for ‘an investigation,’ not for the purpose of enhancing the government’s counterterrorism capabilities generally.”

The board, which was established at the urging of the 9/11 commission, was not unanimous on the issue of ending bulk collection. Two members concluded that the program, if modified to include additional privacy protections, should continue. The two were Rachel L. Brand and Elisebeth Collins Cook, who served in the Justice Department in the George W. Bush administration. The three members who urged an end to the program are Chairman David Medine, a former Federal Trade Commission official in the Clinton administration; James X. Dempsey, a public policy expert with the privacy group, the Center for Democracy & Technology; and Patricia M. Wald, a retired federal appeals court judge named to the bench by President Jimmy Carter.

Defenders of the program reacted sharply to the report’s findings on Thursday. Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, said he agreed with the two dissenters “that the board should ... not partake in unwarranted legal analysis.”

He also criticized the board’s effort to evaluate the program’s effectiveness. “As those of us with law enforcement experience know, successful investigations use all available tools--there often is ‘no silver bullet’ that alone thwarts a plot.”

But the report garnered approval from lawmakers opposed to the collection program, reflecting how the report’s findings are likely to intensify the legislative debate. “The recommendations … add to the growing chorus calling for an end to the government’s dragnet collection of Americans’ phone records,” said Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. “The report reaffirms the conclusion of many that the Section 215 bulk phone records program has not been critical to our national security, is not worth the intrusion on Americans’ privacy and should be shut down immediately.”

The report concluded that the NSA collection raises “constitutional concerns’’ with regard to U.S. citizens’ rights of speech, association and privacy. “The connections revealed by the extensive database of telephone records gathered under the program will necessarily include relationships established among individuals and groups for political, religious, and other expressive purposes,’’ it said. “Compelled disclosure to the government of information revealing these associations can have a chilling effect on the exercise of First Amendment rights.”

The board’s recommendation to end the program goes further than that of a presidentially appointed review panel, which last month urged that the NSA database be shifted out of government hands but that the government find some way to preserve the NSA’s capabilities. That report left open the possibility that a third party or the phone companies could be asked to hold the data.

The PCLOB, by contrast, clearly opposed any legal mandate on the companies to hold data for longer than they do now. And it opposed having a third party hold the data. But both boards concluded that even without the current NSA program, the government would still be able to seek phone records directly from the companies through traditional court orders. The PCLOB said the government could use national security letters in counterterrorism probes.

In its assessment of the program’s value, the board scrutinized 12 terrorism cases cited by the intelligence community that involved information obtained through the Section 215 program. Even in cases where the data related to contacts of a known terrorism suspect, in nearly all of them the benefits were minimal--”generally limited to corroborating information that was obtained independently by the FBI,” the report said.

The board rejected the contention made by officials from Obama on down that the program was necessary to address a gap arising from a failure to detect an al Qaeda terrorist in the United States, Khalid al-Mihdhar, prior to the 2001 attacks. Mihdhar was in phone contact with a safehouse in Yemen, and though the NSA had intercepted the calls, it did not realize at the time that Mihdhar was calling from San Diego.

“The failure to identify Mihdhar’s presence in the United States stemmed primarily from a lack of information sharing among federal agencies, not of a lack of surveillance capabilities,” the report said, noting that in early 2000 the CIA knew Mihdhar had a visa enabling him to enter the United States but did not advise the FBI or watchlist him. “...This was a failure to connect the dots, not a failure to connect enough dots.”

Second, the report said, the government need not have collected the entire nation’s calling records to identify the San Diego number from which Mihdhar made his calls. It asserted that the government could have used existing legal authorities to request from U.S. phone companies the records of any calls made to or from the Yemen number. “Doing so could have identified the San Diego number on the other end of the calls,” though, it noted, the speed of the carriers’ responses likely would vary.

The board also stated that the program played no role in disrupting the 2009 plot to bomb the New York City subway. That case is often cited in discussions of the program’s utility.

“The Board believes that the Section 215 program has contributed only minimal value in combating terrorism beyond what the government already achieves through these and other alternative means,” the report said. “Cessation of the program would eliminate the privacy and civil liberties concerns associated with bulk collection without unduly hampering the government’s efforts, while ensuring that any governmental requests for telephone calling records are tailored to the needs of specific investigations.”

Independent review board says NSA phone data program is illegal and should end - The Washington Post
 

phgreek

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Independent review board says NSA phone data program is illegal and should end
By Ellen Nakashima, Updated: Thursday, January 23, 12:28 PM



Independent review board says NSA phone data program is illegal and should end - The Washington Post

should end as it is...

I believe when you face national security issues you need to include the American people. When it is necessary to suspend liberty for security FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, the American folks need to know, at least in general terms what they are up against...

I understand the importance of secrecy and security within spy organizations...the problem is when they potentially impinge on our own liberties indiscriminately, we MUST be informed, and have the procedural path to end such invasions when WE decide the time for the tradeoff between liberty and security is over, and liberty should be restored. No matter the number of branches of government involved...if we the people are left out...the Govies will get it wrong...they ALWAYS error on the side of "cover their ass"...no fault of theirs in most cases...but it can't work w/o US.

Only a fool would consent to blindly letting the government do the kinds of things the NSA has done routinely, and under no particular real scrutiny for the long haul. The only oversight that has proven effective is OUR knowledge.
 
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Buster Bluth

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The fact that a Congressman tried to have SXSW shut it down only proves just how important Edward Snowden is to us.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Sorry! It took me a minute to figure out who the traitor we were speaking of is!

The fact that a Congressman tried to have SXSW shut it down only proves just how important Edward Snowden is to us.

This is America, where everyone has the right to speak, unless we disagree with what they have to say . . .
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Atlantic's Conor Friedersdorf just published a good article about the huge costs we're imposing on others in exchange for tiny (or nonexistent) gains in security:

America's most objectionable actions since the September 11 terrorist attacks have been rooted in a failure of courage: We were no longer brave enough to act as morally as before. The spectacle of the Twin Towers falling was terrifying, as were the anthrax scare and the Beltway sniper. Countermeasures were appropriate—actions as sweeping as the overthrow of the Taliban and the hunt for Osama bin Laden. A nation has a right to defend itself against attackers and their hosts.

But the War on Terrorism has extended far beyond that.

The U.S. tortured humans who were already disarmed and imprisoned. It swept innocents into indefinite detention, where they languished for years without charges or trial. It began intrusive spying not just on foreign political and military elites but on the innocent masses in democratic countries, including at home. It has killed hundreds of innocents with drones, many of them women and children.

The specter of terrorism was invoked by apologists for all those policies.

Let's say—though there is no persuasive evidence that it's so—that torturing prisoners gave us a nugget of useful intelligence; that spying on the masses in Europe makes us a bit safer; that the phone dragnet and PRISM marginally reduce the risk of terrorism; that killing thousands with drones in Pakistan and Yemen slightly reduces the risk of a future terror attack. Even if all those things were true (and again, no conclusive evidence exists for any of them) the policies wouldn't be just.

The cost to innocents is too high, especially when compared to the unlikelihood of a given American dying in a terrorist attack. We are imposing huge costs on people who've done nothing wrong, and at best we are gaining minuscule amounts of additional safety against a risk that almost certainly won't kill us anyway. To put things in perspective, take a risk that is orders of magnitude greater, the risk of dying in a car crash. Ask yourself if America would be justified in unintentionally but predictably killing women and children abroad, or spying on millions of innocents, if doing so would reduce fatal car crashes by 1 percent.

Of course not. It would be immoral to impose costs on foreign innocents to make ourselves a little bit safer. The lives saved, in my hypothetical, would be far greater than any plausible number of lives saved from the counterterrorism policies I noted.
 
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RDU Irish

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When I consider we spent a couple hundred million bucks for every person lost on 911....
 

BobD

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He's a traitor and will pay some day. I have faith that we'll get him somehow, some way.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Wow! His point in part two about the failure of information leading to the Iraq invasion was so well stated; he is right. It doesn't matter if it was purposeful or accidental, just bad intelligence. The value of computer data is overstated, simply because it is prone to misinterpretation. Just like thread postings here between members! Go figure!

P.S. I also believe after listening to him that he was far more than a low level data operator.
 

Fbolt

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For anyone to sit and watch/read media and eat this stuff up like it's Frosted Flakes in whole milk is disturbing.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Yeah, I understand.

But I bet he did what he did because he thought they were going to kill him!
 

Grahambo

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For anyone to sit and watch/read media and eat this stuff up like it's Frosted Flakes in whole milk is disturbing.


How dare you disrespect Frosted Flakes like that!


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Grahambo

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P.S. I also believe after listening to him that he was far more than a low level data operator.


It's not difficult for a low level data operator to sound like that, especially with the access he had. Not to mention all of this time and help he has had to prepare for such an interview.

He's trying to paint himself as 007 or Jason Bourne. He believes in his own myth.




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