Christopher Columbus: The Pre-Modern Hitler

[ACamp1900]

Well, this is nuanced piece of scholarship.

Did you know that Brown University, a few years ago, changed "Columbus Day weekend" to "Fall Weekend" because of these slave allegations? Did you also know that the founder of Brown University was actually involved, and made his money, in the slave trade?

I'm not denying people, including Columbus, have committed wrongs, but it is amusing (sort of) that people who attack Western Civilization use Western Civilization standards of human rights, natural law, and due process to do it. The Native Americans were not believers in due process. Anyway, I think we need to look at the big picture -- the good and the bad -- that came from European expansion. That's really what's fair and intellectually honest.

reps

 

[TheMightyQuinn10]

"He discovered America is what he did. He was a brave Italian explorer. And in this house, Christopher Columbus is a hero. End of story."

This.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Well, this is nuanced piece of scholarship.

Did you know that Brown University, a few years ago, changed "Columbus Day weekend" to "Fall Weekend" because of these slave allegations? Did you also know that the founder of Brown University was actually involved, and made his money, in the slave trade?

I'm not denying people, including Columbus, have committed wrongs, but it is amusing (sort of) that people who attack Western Civilization use Western Civilization standards of human rights, natural law, and due process to do it. The Native Americans were not believers in due process. Anyway, I think we need to look at the big picture -- the good and the bad -- that came from European expansion. That's really what's fair and intellectually honest.

An intellectually honest person would say that European expansion has been for the most part good... for westerners.

Natives not so much.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

So you're Black, Irish and Italian?? Who says we ain't cultural???


sidenote: I wonder if anyone still has the name Hitler out there... or did every single last one of them change their name??

They changed their name... Augsberger I think.

 

[palinurus]

An intellectually honest person would say that European expansion has been for the most part good... for westerners.

Natives not so much.

I think you need to explore what life was like in North America before the Western Europeans got here. It was not paradise; there was plenty of expansion and cross raiding and terror going on everywhere among the Native American tribes. Moreover, North America was, in most ways, an undeveloped, and underdeveloped, world that was going to be subverted by someone. Someone would have come here, if not the Western Europeans. The mindsets of the Seven Samurai or the Cossacks did not contemplate due process, either.

Given the choices, and given the benefits of what followed for the world at large (resulting from a Western European settlement), the world -- not just the Europeans -- is immeasurably better off with the Europeans coming in. With respect, I think we have to think a little more broadly about the effects of European expansion.

 

[Domina Nostra]

An intellectually honest person would say that European expansion has been for the most part good... for westerners.

Natives not so much.

India is an interesting study. Is that county better off without the Birtish? Would it have been better off if Britain had never conquered it?

I don't think its always so cut and dry.

EDIT: What palinurus said.

 

[irishpat183]

So what?

1400's. Nuff said.


Yeah, he was a POS...but it's a day off from school.

 

[GowerND11]

I don't think that is what he is saying, but rather the things we obviously know in modern times to be horrendously wrong with people like Columbus weren't as commonly viewed the same during past eras - i.e. the wrongness of slavery, cruel punishments, etc. I personally don't have a problem with making judgement by modern standards on historical figures, but you should keep in mind as well that moral and ethical standards do change over time. For that reason, it's probably not a bad idea for the government to consider modifying or even eliminating that national holiday, which would be easy to do. That does also spark an interesting debate on where do you stop with "righting the wrongs" of history too.

Modifying, IMO, could be the best alternative. We know now that if we talk about Europeans discovering America Amerigo Vespucci discovered these lands before Columbus. We could go a step further back the the Viking Explorations, and possible inhabitants. Therefore, a modification to something like Explorers Day, or Founders Day, or something along those lines would make the day more PC (Which I know Pat would love haha) and much more historically accurate.

 

[Cackalacky]

palinrus raises a general and very broad point that can't really be simplified (it is very complex). Sure the human race benefited from European expansion. The point about India is also interesting. Is Africa better off from being dissected and split up amongst various European powers? Is Central and South America better off from US and European colonialism? The US definitely benefited from colonialism but the host countries have suffered and continue to be exploited up until present day because of it.

Its the price of us being able to buy Nike shoes and get raw materials. Viva la revolucion!

 

[BGIF]

An intellectually honest person would say that European expansion has been for the most part good... for westerners.

Natives not so much.

Since we're being intellectually honest ... how did the Expansions by Sargon, Cyrus The Great, Alexander, Napoleon, Qin, Han, the Aztecs, Incas, Zulus, Tojo, Mao, Stalin, Hannibal, Saladin, Charlemagne, the Vikings, or the Sioux turn out ... for the Natives?

Pick a continent, pick an ethnicity, around the globe, throughout history and point out who lost their land, their culture, and control and believed it was better.

 

[palinurus]

palinrus raises a general and very broad point that can't really be simplified (it is very complex). Sure the human race benefited from European expansion. The point about India is also interesting. Is Africa better off from being dissected and split up amongst various European powers? Is Central and South America better off from US and European colonialism? The US definitely benefited from colonialism but the host countries have suffered and continue to be exploited up until present day because of it.

Its the price of us being able to buy Nike shoes and get raw materials. Viva la revolucion!

You are right: it is a complex subject. It's also an interesting subject, esp. to the extent people want to discuss it seriously and not just as a polemic. Aside from the assessment of wrongs and benefits, there's also the point that....well, we are where we are. Now what? We can't undo the past, even if that would be better (which, again, I am not at all sure it would be, on balance). But in any event, we are "here" -- to the extent a one-sided look at the past is used to gain leverage in political attacks or ideological battles, I lose interest, because it doesn't really serve much of practical end.

 

[Emcee77]

palinrus raises a general and very broad point that can't really be simplified (it is very complex). Sure the human race benefited from European expansion. The point about India is also interesting. Is Africa better off from being dissected and split up amongst various European powers? Is Central and South America better off from US and European colonialism? The US definitely benefited from colonialism but the host countries have suffered and continue to be exploited up until present day because of it.

Its the price of us being able to buy Nike shoes and get raw materials. Viva la revolucion!

Totally. Cackalacky, have you seen Louis C.K. on this? (Especially the last 2 minutes of this video)

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/bkjmzEEQUlE?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He's joking, but there's a serious point in there: a lot of great achievements have come about in terrible, horrible ways.

The Middle East is really the area of the world that, when I read the news, I wish the West had steered clear of. The western powers, particularly the British, split it up into different countries with basically no rhyme or reason, which is why you have countries like Iraq that are torn by internal strife among different ethnic groups (Kurds, Shi'ite Muslims and Sunni Muslims) who hate each other. If we had left the region well enough alone, maybe there would be an independent Kurdistan and the Sunnis and Shia would live in different countries where they didn't have to deal with each other. We (well, chiefly the Brits) effed everything up by drawing arbitrary borders and making them live in a country together.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

It's only a matter of time before we look back at Mother Theresa and demonize her for smoking cigarettes when they become illegal.

*Not comparing CC to MT, but with our society's propensity to focus on the negative nowadays, there will be no heroes left soon enough.

 

[Domina Nostra]

It's only a matter of time before we look back at Mother Theresa and demonize her for smoking cigarettes when they become illegal.

*Not comparing CC to MT, but with our society's propensity to focus on the negative nowadays, there will be no heroes left soon enough.

Mother Teresa has been heavily criticized for:
(1) taking money from rich people who may have earned their money dishonestly, and
(2) caring for poor people while they were dying rather than securing medical treatment for them.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

I think you need to explore what life was like in North America before the Western Europeans got here. It was not paradise; there was plenty of expansion and cross raiding and terror going on everywhere among the Native American tribes. Moreover, North America was, in most ways, an undeveloped, and underdeveloped, world that was going to be subverted by someone. Someone would have come here, if not the Western Europeans. The mindsets of the Seven Samurai or the Cossacks did not contemplate due process, either.

Given the choices, and given the benefits of what followed for the world at large (resulting from a Western European settlement), the world-- not just the Europeans -- is immeasurably better off with the Europeans coming in. With respect, I think we have to think a little more broadly about the effects of European expansion.

I'm familiar enough with American tribes to know that they were humans just like all others (stealing, killing, sacrifice etc).

For the bolded part, I'm pretty sure the majority of natives died and therefore didn't get to enjoy the benefits.

And just a guess I'm pretty sure they would rather have undeveloped land than no land...

Since we're being intellectually honest ... how did the Expansions by Sargon, Cyrus The Great, Alexander, Napoleon, Qin, Han, the Aztecs, Incas, Zulus, Tojo, Mao, Stalin, Hannibal, Saladin, Charlemagne, the Vikings, or the Sioux turn out ... for the Natives?

Pick a continent, pick an ethnicity, around the globe, throughout history and point out who lost their land, their culture, and control and believed it was better.

So are we agreeing? Winners tend to think what they did was for the best, while losers not so much.

By the way today is Nietzsche birthday lol

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Mother Teresa has been heavily criticized for:
(1) taking money from rich people who may have earned their money dishonestly, and
(2) caring for poor people while they were dying rather than securing medical treatment for them.

Guess it has already happened.....

 

[Domina Nostra]

Is Africa better off from being dissected and split up amongst various European powers? Is Central and South America better off from US and European colonialism? The US definitely benefited from colonialism but the host countries have suffered and continue to be exploited up until present day because of it.volucion!

Granted some colonies were God awful.

What would Africa have been like without colonization? Would they be better off if they were left to, say, the Muslims? It seems like nature abhors a vacuum and where unorganized people are sitting on good real estate, they either end up sharing it or getting conquered by the bigger more powerful group. Whether it is other African tribes, or European colonists, does it matter?

Native American tribes often picked sides in colonial fights because they had long standing conflicts with other tribes. The Iraquios seemed like bad news.

I wonder what it would have been like in ancient S. America? Your village is conquered by the Aztecs and some are sacrificed to their gods. You become a slave, and a couple generations later you are considered an Aztec by European historians. Are you Aztec? Is life good? Certainly for the powerful in the Aztec world, but for you? Are you really worried about keeping the Aztec nation strong and pure? lets not fool ourselves. When the Spanish came (putting aside diseases), it was most likely what the Who said: "new boss, same as the old boss." Is that average Aztec now pissed because he is under the dominion of a greedy Christian explorer, rather than a drugged-out, demonic Aztec priest?

The Spanish conqur the Aztecs. They enslave a lot of people until the Church protests and Spain outlaws slavery. The Portugese ignore the Church and enslave a lot of people anyways (Brazil vs. everywhere else). Generations later there is a lot of intermarriage between Spanish settlers and natives.

Good? Bad? Are things worse than they would have been? Hard to say.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'm familiar enough with American tribes to know that they were humans just like all others (stealing, killing, sacrifice etc).

For the bolded part, I'm pretty sure the majority of natives died and therefore didn't get to enjoy the benefits.

And just a guess I'm pretty sure they would rather have undeveloped land than no land...

So are we agreeing? Winners tend to think what they did was for the best, while losers not so much.

By the way today is Nietzsche birthday lol

And in modern Western culture, the progressives benefit from a simplistic critique of history that makes everything in the past horrible, and everything in the future wonderful. (That is what close Nietzche called the slave revolt of Christianity. The slaves inverted virtues so that the strong and wise and powerful would feel guilty about their power. Stong bad, weak good. This is a good argument for student led revolts!)

Conservatives often are accused of the opposite: glory day syndrome.

 

[Cackalacky]

“Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.” -Carl Sagan

These topics make me think of this. Great quote. Perspective.

 

[ACamp1900]

These topics make me think of this. Great quote. Perspective.

If only we could rid of the damned, dirty, Italians and their token holidays... that dot would be more livable...

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Carl Sagan was a marijuana smoker and thus his thoughts on life are polluted with the devil's weed and can't be taken seriously. :smilewink

 

[ACamp1900]

word

 

[Cackalacky]

If only we could rid of the damn Italians and their token holidays... that dot would be more livable...

For years now, a growing number of my constituents have been of Italian descent and I've come to know them well. They have honored me with their support and with their friendship. Indeed I can proudly say that some of my very best friends are Italian Americans...These hearings on the Mafia are in no way whatsoever a slur upon the great Italian people. Because I can state from my own knowledge and experience that Italian Americans are among the most loyal, most law-abiding, patriotic, hard-working American citizens in this land. And it would be a shame, Mr. Chairman, if we allowed a few rotten apples to give a bad name to the whole barrel. Because from the time of the great Christopher Columbus up through the time of Enrico Fermi, right up until the present day, Italian Americans have been pioneers in building and defending our great nation. They are the salt of the earth, and they're one of the backbones of this country.

 

[alohagoirish]

I have some doubts about the accuracy of all the details in this oddly presented little article---nonetheless its general point is not particularly revelatory to anyone who has a non-mythological understanding of the history of CIVILIZATION---

The very word itself is misleading---since the shift to agriculture some 10 thousand years ago and the evolution to social hierarchy and what we call civilization---most every horror we can envision has not only flowered but become the imperative of social COMPETITION.

The Egyptions-- --the Babylonians-- the Persians--the Greeks-the Romans--all of feudalism--the British Empire--the American Empire--etc etc-- AS THE WEAK SHALL PERISH!

ALL OF CIVILIZATION was built on slavery--serfdom--genocide & conquest in a BEYOND RUTHLESS COMPETITION FOR RESOURCES & STATUS!

It is our global heritage and it is from the DARKSIDE----

Since the shift to agriculture--the shift from hunter gatherer social organization to the CHIEFDOM HIERARCHIES that would evolve into Cities--Countires & Empires often ruled by dysfunctional and psychologically unstable leaders the story has been loud ,often impressive and most all the time dehumanizing and grim.

Are the EGYPTION PYRAMIDS a testament to man's greatness?--a wonder of civilization we should all see in AWE ?--or are they MONUMENTS to slavery, conquest and death---the pointless and utter waste of human life to build tombs for psychotics---ITS ALL IN THE PERSPECTIVE!

Its not some small revelation about COLUMBUS that is so often missed and misled by our own view of ourselves--it is the entire human social experience since we stopped gathering nuts and hunting rodents--it has been DARK and EVIL in many real ways.

Social organizations that served our evolution for 100000 thousand years--were based on BAND society--its major features were SHARING of the food--Egalitarian treatment of all band members--collective raising of the children----there was a SEVERE resistance to authority--leadership rotated with objectives , the only hierarchies were the HUNTING hierarchies and limited to them--the ONLY STATUS were Age and Gender the natural human divisions.

When we shifted to agriculture the HIERARCHY became the dominant social form and with it DYSFUCTION of every kind and shape.

If we had little Hitlers in BAND society---dominant males that enslaved the rest of the band and kept all the food and women to themselves---IF that story, a story so common in civilization had been the social system of the band WE WOULD NOT HAVE SURIVED!

Sharing-Egalitarianism--Collectivity--these are the TRUE human needs & what we evolved from , thus it is no wonder we have a planet loaded with HUMAN DYSFUNCTION as modern society simply does not meet our deepest psychological needs. And grossly distorts human status under a social system fueled and driven by Competition for resources & status---with ONLY the family unit a place where sharing is even seen as a staple.

We all have had our INHERITED HUMANITY undermined by the shift to social hierarchies and the success encouraged by the most ruthless competition--it was not just COLUMBUS it was our history.

We now separate every INDIVIDUAL alive with status--arbitrary status--racial status--religious status--nationalism--- we have neatly divided the planet into colorful countries all in competition and with every individual within those countries separated again with MORE competition & more status--status for wealth--for family ties--for physical attributes--FOR EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE THING until every individual knows where they stand in the world----

We are a bunch of really sick cowboys.

Progress has come slowly as civilization grudgingly responds to the EGALITARIAN Imperatives of our evolution----

Roman law--the rise of Christianity--- the magna carta--the renaissance--the rise of capitalism----the fall of DIVINE right---the age of enlightenment--Democracy--the French revolution--the American revolution- the BILL OF RIGHTS---Marxism- the elimination of SLAVERY-- workers rights--womens sufferage--environmental awareness---etc etc etc


We are moving back slowly to where we came from---you can gage the progressivity of individual societies very easily by looking at the role and status of WOMEN within those societies----the difference between SWEEDEN and the TALIBAN clearly points to hundreds of years of social evolution and the egalitarian direction civilization is struggling to continue -working against powerful reactionary forces.


Civilization has brought us great technology--great art---great populations--great opportunities for those with resources to live in ways only dreamt of in past.----But is has done that with a high toll on our humanity----

Human instincts are to share--to save the drowning man---to live in many ways that Jesus himself pointed out so clearly as he encouraged us toward our own humanity.---All for one and one for all---our true human heritage or every man for himself the mantra of modern times.

If we plan to survive for another 100 thousand years we likely will need to find and embrace our humanity----that is clearly the direction social evolution is headed--do we make it--odds are sketchy---its your guess!--

 

[Cackalacky]

^I like this guy

 

[ACamp1900]

Good ole, GFII...

Easily one of my top three movies ever.... maybe my all-time fav.

Fredo goes from sleeping with two cocktail waitresses to sleeping with fish... and in between he stares at Superman...

True story: My last serious girlfriend before I met my wife was Mexican, she was over for dinner one night and GFII was on TBS or something like that… during one of those scenes that aren’t very flattering to the humanity of the Italian people and my dad says out of nowhere, with my GF sitting right next to him… “Fvking Italians man… they’re nothing but Mediterranean Mexicans”

….

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

Whatever you do don't show your dad Goodfellas...

 

[ACamp1900]

Whatever you do don't show your dad Goodfellas...

reps

In all honesty though, Goodfellas, GFII, Forrest Gump, Shawshank, GF I

Prob. my all time top five...

okay, now I'll step back from the thread highjack cliff... I promise.

 

[ACamp1900]

Did Cack just go Che on that quote?? Can I take my previous reps back??

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

reps

In all honesty though, Goodfellas, GFII, Forrest Gump, Shawshank, GF I

Prob. my all time top five...

okay, now I'll step back from the thread highjack cliff... I promise.

Lol this thread aint going anywhere anyways

I want to say it was Scorsese (about 55% sure it was him) that said Goodfellas showed the dirty, street side of the mob since the Godfather had romanticized it.

But yeah both are definitely top 10 for me.