George Zimmerman Trial

[Woneone]

Trevor Dooley sentenced to 8 years for manslaughter | Tampa Bay Times

70 Year old black man get's into an argument with a 40-year old white guy at a park.

Long story short, he shot the white guy. In front of his eight year old daughter. This after he flashed his gun as a sign of intimidation. White guy grabs him, they wrestle, black guy shoots him.

On the night of his jury conviction in November, Jamaican-born Dooley blamed racism for his prosecution. "Do you really think that if it was the other way around and the skin color would be different we would be here today?" he asked reporters. "We wouldn't."

Guess again. Man, the race card is like a wild card, you can play it no matter what the situation. Even when they're reversed.

 

[EddytoNow]

Would we feel the same if the situation were reversed? White Victim-Black Neighborhood Watch Coordinator Shoots him in self-defense? I, for one, would. If the Black Neighborhood Watch Coordinator was watching his neighborhood after a number of break-ins and burglaries by white teenagers, and if the white teenager struck him in the nose and then proceeded to pummel him while he was lying on his back on the ground, and if the Black Neighborhood Watch Coordinator had multiple head injuries to back up his claim of self-defense, and if the vast majority of the physical evidence backed up his story of the events I would feel exactly the same as I do about this situation.

Zimmerman had done nothing illegal prior to being struck by Martin. The decision to physically confront Zimmerman was made by Martin. He could have waited until the police arrived, explained his presence in the area, and the night would have ended without violence. Or he could have simply left the area and returned home. The evidence suggests that it was Martin that turned the meeting into a physical confrontation, not Zimmerman.

It's tragic that Martin was shot and killed, but prior to Martin's initial punch Zimmerman did nothing to harm him. He was only questioning Martin's reason for being in the neighborhood. Zimmerman's head injuries and the fact that there was no evidence that Martin had been punched, kicked, or struck in any manner prior to being shot, suggests very strongly that Martin was the initiator of the fight that resulted in his own death.

All the emotion based upon past injustices to blacks in America have no place in the Zimmerman decision. Zimmerman was not responsible for any of those past injustices.

 

[GoIrish41]

Would we feel the same if the situation were reversed? White Victim-Black Neighborhood Watch Coordinator Shoots him in self-defense? I, for one, would. If the Black Neighborhood Watch Coordinator was watching his neighborhood after a number of break-ins and burglaries by white teenagers, and if the white teenager struck him in the nose and then proceeded to pummel him while he was lying on his back on the ground, and if the Black Neighborhood Watch Coordinator had multiple head injuries to back up his claim of self-defense, and if the vast majority of the physical evidence backed up his story of the events I would feel exactly the same as I do about this situation.

Zimmerman had done nothing illegal prior to being struck by Martin. The decision to physically confront Zimmerman was made by Martin. He could have waited until the police arrived, explained his presence in the area, and the night would have ended without violence. Or he could have simply left the area and returned home. The evidence suggests that it was Martin that turned the meeting into a physical confrontation, not Zimmerman.

It's tragic that Martin was shot and killed, but prior to Martin's initial punch Zimmerman did nothing to harm him. He was only questioning Martin's reason for being in the neighborhood. Zimmerman's head injuries and the fact that there was no evidence that Martin had been punched, kicked, or struck in any manner prior to being shot, suggests very strongly that Martin was the initiator of the fight that resulted in his own death.

All the emotion based upon past injustices to blacks in America have no place in the Zimmerman decision. Zimmerman was not responsible for any of those past injustices.

Again, this has not been established as fact. If you are assuming it is fact, you are taking Zimmerman's word for it because he is the only one who said this. Martin also didn't know the police were coming. It seems clear that he thought a creepy dude was following him in the dark, maybe even assuminng the guy was up to no good (which, it turns out, he was)

 

[jmurphy75]

Here are the links, you can't think that this doesn't stink....it screams agenda

Link?

Angela Corey Fires Ben Kruidbos – The “Whistleblower” in The Trayvon Phone Data Cover-up in The Zimmerman Case (We also Outline The Cover-up) | The Last Refuge

State Attorney Angela Corey fires information techonology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case | jacksonville.com

George Zimmerman Trial: Judge to weigh possible prosecutor sanctions post-trial - Crimesider - CBS News

IT director who raised questions about Zimmerman case is fired - CNN.com

 

[GoIrish41]

Trevor Dooley sentenced to 8 years for manslaughter | Tampa Bay Times

70 Year old black man get's into an argument with a 40-year old white guy at a park.

Long story short, he shot the white guy. In front of his eight year old daughter. This after he flashed his gun as a sign of intimidation. White guy grabs him, they wrestle, black guy shoots him.

On the night of his jury conviction in November, Jamaican-born Dooley blamed racism for his prosecution. "Do you really think that if it was the other way around and the skin color would be different we would be here today?" he asked reporters. "We wouldn't."

Guess again. Man, the race card is like a wild card, you can play it no matter what the situation. Even when they're reversed.

the only place where race is relavant in this case, IMO, is whether Zimmerman profiled Martin before any violence happened. He got it in his head that the kid was a thug, gangbanger theif and followed him. The real question to ask is if Martin was white, would Zimmerman have ever followed him in the first place.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Basically there are two camps of people. Camp #1 bascially takes this point of view: http://gawker.com/will-george-zimmerman-get-away-with-murder-757850043 The general premise is that the only irrefutable facts are that Zimmerman followed Martin with a gun, Zimmerman shot Martin, the end.

Then you have camp #2 says there is nothing illegal about just following someone, there is nothing illegal about carrying, there is plenty of corroborating evidence towards self-defense to make his story plausible, and there is not nearly enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt.

What it comes down to really is subjective weighting of the facts. If you don't value anything from when Zimmerman got off the phone to when he shot Martin because there is conflicting evidence then you would convict. If you start saying "the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt..." and weighing testimony/evidence for the confrontation then it's near impossible to make a case for murder as the "motive" is practically non-existent, and still difficult to make a case for manslaughter.

Everything else is window dressing and irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Martin had photos of himself with guns or taking drugs on his cell phone. It doesn't matter that he had THC in his system. It doesn't matter that he has a history of assault (assaulted his bus driver and video taped his friends beating up a homeless man). It doesn't matter what race each person is. It doesn't matter that Zimmerman wanting to be a cop == murderer to some people.

All that matters is whether or not you accept/reject the events in the middle. If you reject them completely, then you have to convict of manslaughter. If you accept them at all and get into a debate of "who was the aggressor?" "was Zimmerman getting his butt kicked 'bad enough' to warrant shooting?" etc. there is no way that the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense. Legally, it is really that cut and dry. Morally, it is not.

Basically agree.

 

[Woneone]

the only place where race is relavant in this case, IMO, is whether Zimmerman profiled Martin before any violence happened. He got it in his head that the kid was a thug, gangbanger theif and followed him. The real question to ask is if Martin was white, would Zimmerman have ever followed him in the first place.

Not really thinking about it, I agree with this (my post was more the "if the positions were reversed, things would be different" crowd).

It's a good point to raise, but what would it change in regards to the legalities surrounding the trial?

 

[NDWorld247]

This is lovely nonsense. Yes, the people that excuse the behavior of the white guy that shot the black kid are above race-related thinking, but anyone who raises the question of whether this case would play out the same if the racial dynamic were different are clear racists. This is not just dumb, it is intellectually dishonest.

You know what's intellectually dishonest? You still think George Zimmerman is white. The Martin family and liberal media have done a number on you.

Reading this actually makes me feel better. If you vehemently disagree with someone and it turns out that that someone is a reasonable, educated person with a sophisticated and nuanced worldview, it might cause you to step back and reevaluate your position. Fortunately for me, I know that is not my situation here based on this quoted paragraph.

Reading this made me step back and reevaluate my position. After doing so, the conclusion I've come to is I am neither reasonable nor educated. Zimmerman deserves to die!

 

[Golden_Domer]

Mag,

I am in an absolute position to question the results. Which is what I did! Especially posters like you.

If you would read you would see what "repeatedly" means. Continuity of actions. Drive car, stop car, get out of car, pursue on foot. Your response did meet the putz level of the Zimmerman statement and defense though!

Bogs

Why are you always so aggressive towards other users?

Anyways, to "repeatedly" follow means there must be separate and distinct acts of stalking. Also, the statute doesn't define "repeatedly", so I don't know where you read that repeatedly means "continuity of actions." Under Florida law, GZ's actions that night would have only constituted one act, therefore under the facts of this case, GZ would not be able to be prosecuted for stalking under Fla. law.

 

[gkIrish]

Basically there are two camps of people. Camp #1 bascially takes this point of view: Will George Zimmerman Get Away With Murder? The general premise is that the only irrefutable facts are that Zimmerman followed Martin with a gun, Zimmerman shot Martin, the end.

Then you have camp #2 says there is nothing illegal about just following someone, there is nothing illegal about carrying, there is plenty of corroborating evidence towards self-defense to make his story plausible, and there is not nearly enough evidence to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt.

What it comes down to really is subjective weighting of the facts. If you don't value anything from when Zimmerman got off the phone to when he shot Martin because there is conflicting evidence then you would convict. If you start saying "the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt..." and weighing testimony/evidence for the confrontation then it's near impossible to make a case for murder as the "motive" is practically non-existent, and still difficult to make a case for manslaughter.

Everything else is window dressing and irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Martin had photos of himself with guns or taking drugs on his cell phone. It doesn't matter that he had THC in his system. It doesn't matter that he has a history of assault (assaulted his bus driver and video taped his friends beating up a homeless man). It doesn't matter what race each person is. It doesn't matter that Zimmerman wanting to be a cop == murderer to some people.

All that matters is whether or not you accept/reject the events in the middle. If you reject them completely, then you have to convict of manslaughter. If you accept them at all and get into a debate of "who was the aggressor?" "was Zimmerman getting his butt kicked 'bad enough' to warrant shooting?" etc. there is no way that the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense. Legally, it is really that cut and dry. Morally, it is not.

Well put. Alternatively:

Camp 1: Ignore the law and burden of proof. Or, the law sucks so don't follow it.

Camp 2: Don't put away a man based on media outrage rather than hard evidence

 

[Golden_Domer]

Stand your ground was a phrase long before it was a statute in Florida law. When people ask if Martin had the right to stand his ground and you say no, you are wrong. If they ask if he would have been able to apply stand your ground law (if he wasn't dead) and you say no, you are correct. but you were getting frustrated over a distinction that others may not have been.

I understand. I think that's where a lot of frustrations come in with discussions like this. I'm arguing strictly from a legal perspective. Other users are arguing from a strictly moral perspective.

But it's also frustrating to hear people keep bringing up issues and laws that don't apply to this case (stalking, the "stand your ground" law, etc.) like they know better than the people handling the case.

 

[Woneone]

I understand. I think that's where a lot of frustrations come in with discussions like this. I'm arguing strictly from a legal perspective. Other users are arguing from a strictly moral perspective.

But it's also frustrating to hear people keep bringing up issues and laws that don't apply to this case (stalking, the "stand your ground" law, etc.) like they know better than the people handling the case.

It's the Internet.

We do know better.

 

[jmurphy75]

the only place where race is relavant in this case, IMO, is whether Zimmerman profiled Martin before any violence happened. He got it in his head that the kid was a thug, gangbanger theif and followed him. The real question to ask is if Martin was white, would Zimmerman have ever followed him in the first place.

That is the only place race SHOULD be relevantin this case, and almost impossible to prove. Unfortunately the media circus has made this more about race than justice.

 

[GoIrish41]

That is the only place race SHOULD be relevantin this case, and almost impossible to prove. Unfortunately the media circus has made this more about race than justice.

jurors are sequestered and not allowed to watch, read or otherwise get outside information about this case. Further, they were presumably chosen to be on the jury because they had very limited knowledge about the case to begin with. Everyone keeps saying that the reporting of this case is going to be influenced by the media, but that seems unlikely to me. We are all on here discussing this because we can watch the case and develop opinions based on all the reporting, private study we've been able to do -- the jurors do not have that ability.

 

[GoIrish41]

That is the only place race SHOULD be relevantin this case, and almost impossible to prove. Unfortunately the media circus has made this more about race than justice.

There are the other 45 calls made to the police by Zimmerman. I've heard various reports on this and some say most and some say all of those previous calls were also because of suspicious black men walking through his neighborhood. That, to me, is not insignificant.

 

[jmurphy75]

There are the other 45 calls made to the police by Zimmerman. I've heard various reports on this and some say most and some say all of those previous calls were also because of suspicious black men walking through his neighborhood. That, to me, is not insignificant.

But now you have to differentiate between was he profiling or were there just alot of "black people" walking thru his neighborhood that shouldn't be there? "Racial profiling" is a bad term it is just profiling race is only one aspect. The whole profiling thing is used in every law enforcement agency around the world to them it is pretty much the law of probability. Heck profiling is used in every sales and business market there is. What needs to be proven for your argument to be proven is that there were the same amount of non black people walking around his neighborhood that he did not call the police for.

 

[GoIrish41]

But now you have to differentiate between was he profiling or were there just alot of "black people" walking thru his neighborhood that shouldn't be there? "Racial profiling" is a bad term it is just profiling race is only one aspect. The whole profiling thing is used in every law enforcement agency around the world to them it is pretty much the law of probability. Heck profiling is used in every sales and business market there is. What needs to be proven for your argument to be proven is that there were the same amount of non black people walking around his neighborhood that he did not call the police for.

It is a mixed neighborhood and the law of probability would tell you that there were at least some white people walking through the neighborhood over the years that he made those calls. Depending on which report you go by, that means that in 46 instances he found black people to be suspicious and in 0 cases he found white people not to be. That speaks to predjudice and the coupled with the hateful language he used in describing Martin to the police operator introduces anger/frustration into the equasion with predjudices, which is not a favorable combination for Zimmerman. The prosecution suggested that his anger and frustration had a direct impact on the events that followed. It is up to the jury to determine if that suggestion has any merit.

 

[jmurphy75]

It is a mixed neighborhood and the law of probability would tell you that there were at least some white people walking through the neighborhood over the years that he made those calls. Depending on which report you go by, that means that in 46 instances he found black people to be suspicious and in 0 cases he found white people not to be. That speaks to predjudice and the coupled with the hateful language he used in describing Martin to the police operator introduces anger/frustration into the equasion with predjudices, which is not a favorable combination for Zimmerman. The prosecution suggested that his anger and frustration had a direct impact on the events that followed. It is up to the jury to determine if that suggestion has any merit.

It is a mixed subdivision surrounded by a predominately black neighborhood, you assume prejudice it doesn't speak to it. Do you know the percentage of crime in the direct area and what race has the highest percentage of committing the crimes?

 

[NDWorld247]

It is a mixed neighborhood and the law of probability would tell you that there were at least some white people walking through the neighborhood over the years that he made those calls. Depending on which report you go by, that means that in 46 instances he found black people to be suspicious and in 0 cases he found white people not to be. That speaks to predjudice and the coupled with the hateful language he used in describing Martin to the police operator introduces anger/frustration into the equasion with predjudices, which is not a favorable combination for Zimmerman. The prosecution suggested that his anger and frustration had a direct impact on the events that followed. It is up to the jury to determine if that suggestion has any merit.

5 of the 46 calls were regarding suspicious African-American people. Most of which came shortly after African-American males were seen breaking into a home in the neighborhood. At least 2 of the 46 calls were regarding suspicious or disturbing white or Hispanic people. The large majority of calls were reporting things that a Neighborhood Watch volunteer is expected to make calls about (alarms, animals, maintenance, etc).

These stats hardly paint Zimmerman as prejudiced or racist.

 

[Woneone]

5 of the 46 calls were regarding suspicious African-American people. Most of which came shortly after African-American males were seen breaking into a home in the neighborhood. At least 2 of the 46 calls were regarding suspicious or disturbing white or Hispanic people. The large majority of calls were reporting things that a Neighborhood Watch volunteer is expected to make calls about (alarms, animals, maintenance, etc).

These stats hardly paint Zimmerman as prejudiced or racist.

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from posting actual facts in this thread.

This is a place for unsubstantiated opinion, emotional outburst, and faulty conclusions.

If you need assistance with adhering to those rules, I direct you to nearly any major media outlet. They can provide examples.

Thanks.

(P.S. Do you have a link to this? I can't find it anywhere. Not saying it isn't true, but I heard the rate of black calls was much higher as well).

 

[Bluto]

People are going to wake up to this and be rightfully upset that I sat here and yaked away with no opposition but.... You guys started the thread!

It's amazing to me that this case is national news. That a grown *** man initiated aggressive contact with a minor, legally going about his business, then kills him isn't a crime.....

I hate to be this stark about it but, we all know that if a black teenager would have done the same thing, he would have (rightfully) been in jail this whole time and nobody would have heard of t his case.

The sickening part is the "color-blind" racism that is so loud coming out of this. It's even worse than overt racism,

Good post. Tried to rep you but couldn't.

 

[Bluto]

As far as profiling, of course Zimerrman did albeit maybe it was based on a combination of factors (race, clothing, age). Why else would be decide to play Dirty Harry and start following the kid? It seems pretty clear to me that allowing possession of a gun and being on the "neighborhood watch" at the same time is a recipe for disaster.

 

[GoIrish41]

It is a mixed subdivision surrounded by a predominately black neighborhood, you assume prejudice it doesn't speak to it. Do you know the percentage of crime in the direct area and what race has the highest percentage of committing the crimes?

I don't know any of those stats, and the thing is that neither does the jury because none of that was introduced into evidence. What was introduced into evidence is that 46 calls were made about suspicious black persons walking through the neighborhood and 0 calls were made on white people. That is what the jury will have in front of them when they consider what was in Zimmerman's mind just before he shot Martin. The ratio of calls about blacks and whites does indeed speak to prejudice, which is not to say it proves anything, but it certainly gives the jury something to think about. You can believe that I'm assuming predjudice, but I have consistently said race shouldn't be a part of this case. I simply don't believe Zimmerman's account of what happened because of the clear inconsistencies and questionable assertions he has made. If this was such a clear cut case of self defense, I think we would all agree that he should have just told the story straight and not embelished the facts. If you are going to lie about the fundamental elements of the 40 seconds or so in which the fight happened, you forfeit your credibility in my eyes. And, that has nothing at all to do with race.

 

[GoIrish41]

5 of the 46 calls were regarding suspicious African-American people. Most of which came shortly after African-American males were seen breaking into a home in the neighborhood. At least 2 of the 46 calls were regarding suspicious or disturbing white or Hispanic people. The large majority of calls were reporting things that a Neighborhood Watch volunteer is expected to make calls about (alarms, animals, maintenance, etc).

These stats hardly paint Zimmerman as prejudiced or racist.

I said that there were contradictory reports on the subject. I've not seen ANY that said 5 of the calls were regarding suspicious African American people. If you have a link to that I wouldn't mind seeing it. I've seen multiple reports that have said most and even all of the calls were about suspecious African American people.

 

[Woneone]

46 Calls - The Daily Beast

Complete police log apparently. Feel free to draw your own conclusions (but let me get my popcorn ready first).

Edit: In looking for this, I realized that, although there has been some "heated" discussions here, for the most part, it's kept pretty sane.

While looking, I came across a few other forums that were just, wow.

 

[GoIrish41]

46 Calls - The Daily Beast

Complete police log apparently. Feel free to draw your own conclusions (but let me get my popcorn ready first).

Edit: In looking for this, I realized that, although there has been some "heated" discussions here, for the most part, it's kept pretty sane.

While looking, I came across a few other forums that were just, wow.

Just read this and some of the others out there on the web, too. Obviously there is a lot of bad reporting and agenda pushing going on in the media over this. I withdraw my argument about the 46 calls to the police, and THAT is the evidence that the jury will consider. Not nearly as bad for Zimmerman as I was led to believe. Thanks.

 

[Woneone]

Just read this and some of the others out there on the web, too. Obviously there is a lot of bad reporting and agenda pushing going on in the media over this. I withdraw my argument about the 46 calls to the police, and THAT is the evidence that the jury will consider. Not nearly as bad for Zimmerman as I was led to believe. Thanks.

I'm with you. I had heard the rate was much higher.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Here are the links, you can't think that this doesn't stink....it screams agenda


Angela Corey Fires Ben Kruidbos – The “Whistleblower” in The Trayvon Phone Data Cover-up in The Zimmerman Case (We also Outline The Cover-up) | The Last Refuge

State Attorney Angela Corey fires information techonology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case | jacksonville.com

George Zimmerman Trial: Judge to weigh possible prosecutor sanctions post-trial - Crimesider - CBS News

IT director who raised questions about Zimmerman case is fired - CNN.com

So it turns out that this guy is a liar and a schmuck, and the reason he was fired and these photos weren't turned over is because he erased them! Good! Oh my, I have got to stop laughing so hard!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I'd appreciate it if you refrained from posting actual facts in this thread.

This is a place for unsubstantiated opinion, emotional outburst, and faulty conclusions.

If you need assistance with adhering to those rules, I direct you to nearly any major media outlet. They can provide examples.

Thanks.

(P.S. Do you have a link to this? I can't find it anywhere. Not saying it isn't true, but I heard the rate of black calls was much higher as well).

All this tall about Zimmerman's 9-1-1 calls. Maybe you all should have read them and the compendium of information including crime scene photos before you commented on this case. There are a few that took the time to read first. You can tell because their posts keep to the same stories and to the germane. The rest should read more first, especially before they criticize and insult.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Why are you always so aggressive towards other users?

Anyways, to "repeatedly" follow means there must be separate and distinct acts of stalking. Also, the statute doesn't define "repeatedly", so I don't know where you read that repeatedly means "continuity of actions." Under Florida law, GZ's actions that night would have only constituted one act, therefore under the facts of this case, GZ would not be able to be prosecuted for stalking under Fla. law.

Some times I had enough.

In testimony, GZ's camp and the prosecutor have succeded in portraying GZ as having done this before, in fact it was his sop. I asked someone in FLA jurisprudence. They could jump on this if they wanted. (As you kind if indicated you understood.) That would be like if some guy followed all brunettes around at the beach that wore polka-dot bikinis. Also, in certain cases one evening events could be divided into segments you follow me at the ball game, later at the bar, and then on the cab ride home (because by this time I am three sheets into the wind.) I was told that with the way GZ laid out the event, and the 9-1-1 record, that he lost contact, that could be considered "repeatedly" under the law. Followed him in the car. Lost him. Followed him on foot.

And Golden, please let me know if I have treated you like you describe me doing. I am not denying that I did that, and have done that. I just want to make sure that you don't think that I have ever done that to you.