George Zimmerman Trial

[drayer54]

To be fair, the defendant here did *shoot* and *kill* the only person who could have provided testimony to refute the defendant's. Where are they going to get irrefutable evidence from? As a matter of public policy, it seems dangerous to send the message that as long as nobody else is around to see it you can kill someone and then make up a story about how you were defending yourself.

Is it not even more dangerous to tell people that they can't defend themselves if under attack? Castle doctrine has already been under attack in this country and I fear the inevitable acquittal will result in some kind of lash back on the stand your ground law, even though it did not apply here. Self defense should be protected and the actual evidence in this case supports this theory.

For the record, I don't hate any of the people you mentioned here. Ironically enough, I think it is specifically logic that dictates that his version of events be dismissed. What we know about this incident other than what came from Zimmerman is that you had this wannabe cop who was (wrongly) suspicious of a kid that was doing nothing wrong, and as a result of that suspicion, along with some hubris and ignorance and stupidity, he decided to follow the kid. And as a result of him following the kid, there was an altercation in which he shot the kid.

Him following the kid has not one thing to do with the result of this trial. If my neighborhood had crime issues, I may very well choose to walk around and keep an eye on pothead teenagers who are up to no good in the neighborhood as well. The texts and his past support that claim btw. George had a phone and called 911. Trayvon calls a friend and uses racial slurs. Yet, we jump to the defense of Trayvon.

Everything I know about life tells me that if there is an altercation between the type of person that is going to go follow a kid around a neighborhood armed with a gun despite zero evidence of the kid doing anything wrong and a kid who was walking through the neighborhood minding his own business and not bothering anyone, that the former is approximately 1000X more likely to be responsible for that altercation than the latter. And since in this case the latter died as a result of the altercation and the former's explanation both serves as the only possible scenario in which he could not be guilty of killing the kid and includes a series of events that defy every reasonable inference that a person could make about what happened, I don't think he deserves to be believed.

I have a CCW and carry a gun semi-regularly. That doesn't mean that I am looking to kill someone or an automatic aggressor. Lots of people do. People having a distrust of the evidence because of a preconceived notion about people who carry a gun is a scary thing. I hope the jury isn't as prejudiced as this. The only one who had commited a crime before the altercation was the pothead out to get his watermelon tea and skittles. Also, why do you always assume he was walking around innocent without throwing the punch? You disqualify GZ's testimony because he has a gun and assume the pothead had to be completely innocent?

It certainly isn't illegal to follow someone around your neighborhood. But Zimmerman isn't on trial for that. He is on trial for the shooting that took place as a result of his following someone around his neighborhood. First of all, the fact that he was armed and following a teenager around his neighborhood speaks to his character and credibility, and so it is relevant insofar as it allows me to dismiss his story about what happened. Second of all, I don't believe that Martin started the altercation and I do think that once Zimmerman approached Martin he had the right to defend himself (oh, the irony). I also believe the thing about Martin trying to grab Zimmerman's gun is laughably absurd and further undermines Zimmerman's credibility. I get why he is saying it, I just think it is too far fetched to be believable.

The officers testified that TM appeared to be in his twenties. GZ didn't know he was a teen or unarmed. No law was being violated by GZ having a gun in his holster. Why do you assume that anyone with a gun is automatically lying? Guns are only tools and whatever association you are making about them is laughable.

If Zimmerman was "not minding his own business" from inside his house and looking out the window, or standing in his driveway, then no it wouldn't warrant an ***-kicking. But following someone around could definitely make that person apprehensive about their safety and cause them to protect themselves. If Zimmerman had followed Martin around and made him nervous and Martin responding by punching him in the face, then Martin would be in the wrong and the justice system could deal with Martin. But not only do I not believe that happened, I don't believe people should have the right to take the law into their own hands and kill someone because they got beat up.

That's why Trayvon called 911! Ohhh wait....

If that all happened word for word and I saw videotape proving it, then I would not convict for manslaughter. I just find that whole scenario to be so utterly absurd and implausible that it is hard for me to take it seriously.

Well if you can't take an armed person seriously then it is no shocker.

I don't think they would ever let me on a jury because it would be hard for me to follow an instruction with which I disagreed. It is my understanding that this jury will be instructed that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not acting in self defense. I believe that if a defendant is using an affirmative defense, the burden should shift to the defendant to prove that defense beyond a reasonable doubt. In this case, that would mean that Zimmerman would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was acting in self defense. Having said that, and based on what I wrote above, I don't have any doubt in my mind that Zimmerman's story is horseshit and so I would vote to convict. This thread is terrific evidence that there is no way you're going to get 12 out of 12 people to feel that way, though. For whatever reason, people seem to desperately want to believe this guy's story. I can't understand why, but it is obviously the way it is.

Finally, some clarity! Fortunately, we have a system where you are innocent until proven guilty. I know in the court of public perception and media deceit, it is the other way around. Not everyone is desperate to believe the guy. I have no vested interest in the case. It's just some people aren't using gun stereotypes to automatically disqualify the story of a man who called 911 and had severe head injury. The police were convinced too before the media outcry pushed the state into a case.

 

[drayer54]

I understand your feelings. So you can understand, for the same reason I hope we can get a felony conviction for a lesser charge this week. I don't think anything is going to finish today. Looking back at it, I don't think anyone was confident of a murder conviction.

Do you really think the media can falsify facts, or, can they do anything but that? (Depending on your point of view.) All reporting is a lie at worst or an approximation of the truth at best. Someone really smart said that.

And do you really want a clown like this continuing to carry a gun?

I think the media picks and chooses what information they present and were set on turning the story into a narrative of the racist vigilante vs the innocent minority teenager.

Trayvon Martin case exposes worst in media

Trayvon Tragedy: Manufactured Racism? How NBC Edited Racism Into the George Zimmerman 911 Call - YouTube

I am not fond of the GZ character in this story. I think he might need a gun if he gets an acquittal with the abundance of threats out there. We don't get to pick and choose which people carry a gun. It is a constitutional right and he has the right to defend himself. I personally think some of the people making public threats about GZ should have permits pulled too.....

 

[Rhode Irish]

drayer, you completely ignore the fact that there is zero independently sourced evidence that helps your friend, and that the only evidence supporting his version of events is his own self serving statements. You also call the victim of a shooting a "pothead" on multiple occasions, as if you think that is relevant somehow. I'm at a loss for how a person would choose to believe a killer's uncorroborated and credulity straining account over the simplest and most obvious explanation for what happened, especially since the defendant killed the only other witness.

Your last point about guilty until proven innocent is a little simplistic. When the defendant seeks to put the victim on trial by asserting an affirmative defense then logically the burden of proof should shift to him. If Zimmerman's defense was that he did not shoot Martin, then the burden to prove he did beyond a reasonable doubt would unquestionably lie with the state. You probably missed my post earlier in which I said that normally I'd be the hardest juror to get a conviction out of, but where an affirmative defense is raised I think the situation is different.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

. . .

I am not fond of the GZ character in this story. I think he might need a gun if he gets an acquittal with the abundance of threats out there. We don't get to pick and choose which people carry a gun. It is a constitutional right and he has the right to defend himself. I personally think some of the people making public threats about GZ should have permits pulled too.....

See that is exactly half of my point.

I have a CCP. In Ohio. It says right on it if I have alcohol related incarceration, domestic violence charges, etc., my CCP can be revoked under the Ohio Revised Code. And that is the way it should be!

Last I checked, I have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; not to be an @sshole, particularly at someone else's expense.

Does any law enforcement official think that this guy would be adjudged justified with this shooting? Cleared and allowed to return to work?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

drayer, you completely ignore the fact that there is zero independently sourced evidence that helps your friend, and that the only evidence supporting his version of events is his own self serving statements. You also call the victim of a shooting a "pothead" on multiple occasions, as if you think that is relevant somehow. I'm at a loss for how a person would choose to believe a killer's uncorroborated and credulity straining account over the simplest and most obvious explanation for what happened, especially since the defendant killed the only other witness.

Did you see the amount of THC he had present in his system? People ought watch their characterizations. What do you think random testing right now of IE posters and family members would find?

 

[drayer54]

drayer, you completely ignore the fact that there is zero independently sourced evidence that helps your friend, and that the only evidence supporting his version of events is his own self serving statements. You also call the victim of a shooting a "pothead" on multiple occasions, as if you think that is relevant somehow. I'm at a loss for how a person would choose to believe a killer's uncorroborated and credulity straining account over the simplest and most obvious explanation for what happened, especially since the defendant killed the only other witness.

The neighbors testimony corroborated the Zimmerman story. The injuries on the back of his head are consistent with the story. The bullet entry is consistent with his story. The toxicology report indicated THC in Martins system. Not to mention, the state never presented evidence that this was a cold blooded murder. When you evaluate a case, you don't assume that one side is a cold blooded killer, just like we don't assume TM was the initial aggressor. We have evidence for that.

The simplest explanation from the evidence is that Trayvon was on top and George pulled the gun and shot him.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The prosecution failed to prove that GZ committed any crime. It is readily apparent that the prosecution was either inept in their presentation of the "facts" or they were coerced by outside influences to try a case they had no business even trying. Sadly, I believe it was the media who picked up a local story and tried to push their liberal "race" agenda without really knowing anything about the facts of the case. Maybe in the futute the media will be more careful to pick their next cause.

 

[FLDomer]

The prosecution failed to prove that GZ committed any crime. It is readily apparent that the prosecution was either inept in their presentation of the "facts" or they were coerced by outside influences to try a case they had no business even trying. Sadly, I believe it was the media who picked up a local story and tried to push their liberal "race" agenda without really knowing anything about the facts of the case. Maybe in the futute they media will be more careful to pick their next cause.

Don't count on it!

 

[Bogtrotter07]

The neighbors testimony corroborated the Zimmerman story. The injuries on the back of his head are consistent with the story. The bullet entry is consistent with his story and several other alternatives. The toxicology report indicated a small amount of THC in Martins system. Not to mention, the state never presented evidence that this was a cold blooded murder. When you evaluate a case, you don't assume that one side is a cold blooded killer, just like we don't assume TM was the initial aggressor. We have evidence for that.

The simplest explanation from the evidence is that Trayvon was on top and George pulled the gun and shot him.

Actually, what I highlighted is you doing exactly what you just complained the media did. You actually were rather hard on them. Specifically.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Anyone that brings up the fact that the kid had weed in his system can automatically have his opinion about this situation ignored. Do you know what percentage of American teenagers have at least a "trace amount" of THC in their system? I'd bet most of them. Maybe if the kid was on bath salts or meth I would at least consider that maybe he could have acted erratically and attacked a guy for no reason. I just don't consider that to be plausible in this case. That just isn't how people act.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Anyone that brings up the fact that the kid had weed in his system can automatically have his opinion about this situation ignored. Do you know what percentage of American teenagers have at least a "trace amount" of THC in their system? I'd bet most of them. Maybe if the kid was on bath salts or meth I would at least consider that maybe he could have acted erratically and attacked a guy for no reason. I just don't consider that to be plausible in this case. That just isn't how people act.

This.

My idiot Glenn Beck loving sister came into the house the other day talking about how the THC was probably making him paranoid and thus attacked Zimmerman.

HUH??? That would take a ton of weed and I doubt he'd have done well in a fight at that point anyway. He'd want a bag of cheetos instead...

 

[ohara831]

I'm just sorry the whole thing went down like it did. The kid was not perfect, but he was just a kid. And now his life has ended. He did not deserve to die. And Zimmerman, while he may not have acted perfectly smart, was trying to protect his neighborhood. Maybe he should have just let the kid walk away and be satisfied with having run him off. But he cannot fix that now. Dont think he's guilty of murder. But I also know he's gonna live with this the rest of his life. He's gonna ask himself over and over what he could have done differently. Every night he goes to bed and closes his eyes, he's gonna see that young mans face as that bullet entered him. He's gonna pay for his error in judgment, not with his freedom, but with his conscience. Every day. For the rest of his life. The whole matter is just a sad thing. I remember the family of that young man in my prayers and hope they find peace. And I remember Zimmerman in my prayers and hope he finds peace also. It wont be easy for any of them.

 

[drayer54]

Anyone that brings up the fact that the kid had weed in his system can automatically have his opinion about this situation ignored. Do you know what percentage of American teenagers have at least a "trace amount" of THC in their system? I'd bet most of them. Maybe if the kid was on bath salts or meth I would at least consider that maybe he could have acted erratically and attacked a guy for no reason. I just don't consider that to be plausible in this case. That just isn't how people act.

Here we go again, ignoring that which we disagree with. The THC trace isn't indicative of an anger enhancing stimulant, it is purely an indication that he has no regard for the law and isn't the innocent little kid that was depicted in the baby pictures.

 

[BobD]

With the statistics below, It seems like this case is more about a divide in our country, than GZ or TM. How do we pick one shooting out of so many? I don't want to derail this thread with another discussion on gun control. What I'm asking is: is this case about TM and GZ ? Why such interest?

The big picture:
Every year in the U.S., an average of more than 100,000 people are shot, according to The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence.
Every day in the U.S., an average of 289 people are shot. Eighty-six of them die: 30 are murdered, 53 kill themselves, two die accidentally, and one is shot in a police intervention, the Brady Campaign reports.
Between 2000 and 2010, a total of 335,609 people died from guns -- more than the population of St. Louis, Mo. (318,069), Pittsburgh (307,484), Cincinnati, Ohio (296,223), Newark, N.J. (277,540), and Orlando, Fla. (243,195) (sources: CDF, U.S. Census; CDC)
One person is killed by a firearm every 17 minutes, 87 people are killed during an average day, and 609 are killed every week. (source: CDC)
Homicides by weapon:
Handguns comprised 72.5 percent of the firearms used in murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2011; 4.1 percent were with shotguns; 3.8 percent were with rifles; 18.5 percent were with unspecified firearms.
13.3 percent of homicides were done with knives or other cutting instruments.
5.8 percent of homicides were from the use of hands, fists, feet, etc. (source: FBI)
Guns and kids:
82 children under five years old died from firearms in 2010 compared with 58 law enforcement officers killed by firearms in the line of duty (sources: CDF, CDC, FBI)
More kids ages 0-19 died from firearms every three days in 2010 than died in the 2012 Newtown, Conn., massacre (source:CDF, CDC)
Nearly three times more kids (15,576) were injured by firearms in 2010 than the number of U.S. soldiers (5,247) wounded in action that year in the war in Afghanistan (source: CDF, CDC, Department of Defense)
Half of all juveniles murdered in 2010 were killed with a firearm (source: Office of Juvenile Justice & Delinquency Prevention)

 

[irishpat183]

Anyone that brings up the fact that the kid had weed in his system can automatically have his opinion about this situation ignored. Do you know what percentage of American teenagers have at least a "trace amount" of THC in their system? I'd bet most of them. Maybe if the kid was on bath salts or meth I would at least consider that maybe he could have acted erratically and attacked a guy for no reason. I just don't consider that to be plausible in this case. That just isn't how people act.

And anyone brining up that Zimmerman was guilty of anythign illegal that night, can automatically have his opinion about this situation, ignorned. Do you know the % of American homeowners that would investigate a strange person walking around their neighborhood at night? Maybe if TM was making that walk during the day, not in a dark hoodie at night, I would at least consider that GZ wouldn't have had to follow him.

 

[irishpat183]

Docs: Obama DOJ facilitated anti-Zimmerman protests with taxpayer money - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com



If I had a son, He'd look like Trayvon.....Sheesh.


And you guys said this isn't about race....HA

 

[irishpat183]

Actually, what I highlighted is you doing exactly what you just complained the media did. You actually were rather hard on them. Specifically.

NOthign he said was untrue. So he did the opposite what the media did...tell the truth.

 

[irishpat183]

well, if my teenage son is shot dead and no one is even brought up on any charge whatsoever i would do EVERYTHING i could to get justice.

i guess some here would just take the local police dept word for it.

btw i am white.

And as a parent...I would as well.


Doesn't mean the person is wrong for shooting him...but I'm with you.


I'm not disagreing at all with TM's family. I sympthize with them. Don't think for a min I don't feel bad for them. It's terrible to lose a child this way.

However, I'm simply making my arguments about THE CASE.

 

[irishpat183]

I have heard many talk about the "facts." None of these facts about TM have been established except that trace amounts of THC were found in his system.

The facts are as follows:
1) A 'white' man with a gun pursued a 'black' teenager without a gun.
2) The teenager died.

Those are the "facts."

I will postulate that if the skin color of the man had been 'black' in this situation, or any other, he would already be on his way to fry. Or if the teenager had been white . . .

My thoughts? At the end of the prosecution the lead prosecutor told the whole story. He said something about two men involved, I think he said, "There are two people involved here. One of them is dead, and one of them is a liar. . . "

Rotroh. That is when you knew the prosecutor wasn't out for the win. After all he is a white guy in a white world. He wants and will get a tie. Zimmerman will either plead for reduced sentence, or be convicted of a lesser crime.

I think second is fitting but not provable with the police forces embarrassing procedures, and this doltish prosecution.

As far as Zimmerman. I have no respect and nothing but contempt for him. He is either the most incompetent, stupid blithering idiot, for god's sake, they only gave Barney Fife one bullet; or he is a cunning strategist the was able to coalesce the perfect storm.

Nevermind that black on black crime is at an all time high in Chicago right now and nobody is "frying"??

Nominee for worst post of the year? LOL

 

[irishpat183]

I also do not believe GZ's version of the story, who yells for help while they are brandishing their weapon and shooting someone. Then stops yelling as soon as the shot is fired, but testifies that they still believed the person was a threat. That is why they moved the body and sat on their arms or whatever. I am not buying his story. Probably not enough to overcome beyond a reasonable doubt, but more than enough to wonder why so many are losing it over this prosecution and anyone else who thinks he is getting away with a crime.

Maybe he didn't want to have to use the weapon?!?!!?!?!?!

Your argument actually helps GZ's case! LOL....

 

[irishpat183]

New Black Panthers threaten to kill white people on Twitter - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com


Good lord....Such a shame. You don't like the outcome of a trial, so you take it out on innocent people. Makes sense.

 

[Rhode Irish]

And anyone brining up that Zimmerman was guilty of anythign illegal that night, can automatically have his opinion about this situation, ignorned. Do you know the % of American homeowners that would investigate a strange person walking around their neighborhood at night? Maybe if TM was making that walk during the day, not in a dark hoodie at night, I would at least consider that GZ wouldn't have had to follow him.

What is this nazi Germany? You're not allowed to go anywhere at night? Or only if you're black? A strange person in your yard may be cause for alarm. Someone you don't know walking down the street isn't suspicious. Again I ask, if this was a black adult that shot an unarmed white kid doing nothing but walking down the street would everyone here still be making the same arguments? I don't know if Zimmerman was motivated in part by race, but I'm pretty sure that the phenomenon of people defending a guy who shot a kid for walking down the street has a lot to do with race.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

New Black Panthers threaten to kill white people on Twitter - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com


Good lord....Such a shame. You don't like the outcome of a trial, so you take it out on innocent people. Makes sense.

"Of course," Jim Hoft wrote at the Gateway Pundit, "if these threats were coming from some white racist group this would actually be a national story.

 

[Rhode Irish]

New Black Panthers threaten to kill white people on Twitter - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com


Good lord....Such a shame. You don't like the outcome of a trial, so you take it out on innocent people. Makes sense.

Pat, should someone endeavor to find the stupidest things that white people have said on twitter? Probably not a lot of racism and threats of violence in there, you think? You really have to stop reading that website. It is poisoning your mind. What is wrong with getting news from people who aren't crazy?

 

[drayer54]

Actually, what I highlighted is you doing exactly what you just complained the media did. You actually were rather hard on them. Specifically.

The media was trying to sell a story. They were trying to promote anger and excitement. Trying to captivate an audience, get ratings, turn a profit. Facts didn't get in the way of that process.

I showed you how NBC bashed Zimmerman Trayvon Tragedy: Manufactured Racism? How NBC Edited Racism Into the George Zimmerman 911 Call - YouTube
by twisting the video into a story that it isn't. I didn't really care about the case until I followed the actual trial and was shocked how underwhelming the case against GZ actually is.

My observation is that people who think he is guilty are looking at the big picture that he had a gun (big scary Kel-tech 9mm) and pursued a teenager who ended up dead. That is enough for them.They feel the emotions of profiling and life lost.

I feel that those who are outraged at this case and demand an acquittal are looking more at the fact that Zimmerman took a beating and very well likely was defending himself. A lesser charge given as a compromise because they have doubt would be a shame. I don't see how anyone can say beyond a reasonable doubt they know GZ murdered TM.

 

[drayer54]

With the statistics below, It seems like this case is more about a divide in our country, than GZ or TM. How do we pick one shooting out of so many? I don't want to derail this thread with another discussion on gun control. What I'm asking is: is this case about TM and GZ ? Why such interest?

The big picture:
Every year in the U.S., an average of more than 100,000 people are shot, according to The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence.
Every day in the U.S., an average of 289 people are shot. Eighty-six of them die: 30 are murdered, 53 kill themselves, two die accidentally, and one is shot in a police intervention, the Brady Campaign reports.
Between 2000 and 2010, a total of 335,609 people died from guns -- more than the population of St. Louis, Mo. (318,069), Pittsburgh (307,484), Cincinnati, Ohio (296,223), Newark, N.J. (277,540), and Orlando, Fla. (243,195) (sources: CDF, U.S. Census; CDC)
One person is killed by a firearm every 17 minutes, 87 people are killed during an average day, and 609 are killed every week. (source: CDC)
Homicides by weapon:
Handguns comprised 72.5 percent of the firearms used in murder and non-negligent manslaughter incidents in 2011; 4.1 percent were with shotguns; 3.8 percent were with rifles; 18.5 percent were with unspecified firearms.
13.3 percent of homicides were done with knives or other cutting instruments.
5.8 percent of homicides were from the use of hands, fists, feet, etc. (source: FBI)
Guns and kids:
82 children under five years old died from firearms in 2010 compared with 58 law enforcement officers killed by firearms in the line of duty (sources: CDF, CDC, FBI)
More kids ages 0-19 died from firearms every three days in 2010 than died in the 2012 Newtown, Conn., massacre (source:CDF, CDC)
Nearly three times more kids (15,576) were injured by firearms in 2010 than the number of U.S. soldiers (5,247) wounded in action that year in the war in Afghanistan (source: CDF, CDC, Department of Defense)
Half of all juveniles murdered in 2010 were killed with a firearm (source: Office of Juvenile Justice & Delinquency Prevention)

Perhaps we should all move to a safe city with tough gun laws! More proof that gun laws are for fools.

A Grim Fourth of July Weekend in Chicago: 74 Shot, 12 Dead | National Review Online

 

[drayer54]

Pat, should someone endeavor to find the stupidest things that white people have said on twitter? Probably not a lot of racism and threats of violence in there, you think? You really have to stop reading that website. It is poisoning your mind. What is wrong with getting news from people who aren't crazy?

Are the non-crazies making literature too?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

This.

My idiot Glenn Beck loving sister came into the house the other day talking about how the THC was probably making him paranoid and thus attacked Zimmerman.

HUH??? That would take a ton of weed and I doubt he'd have done well in a fight at that point anyway. He'd want a bag of cheetos instead...

You grow man boobs before you become that paranoid on weed - And I am not a weed supporter.

The Bogtrotter 7-11-13

 

[drayer54]

The weed is not being used by the defense because nobody thinks the weed is what made him attack GZ. The weed should have been admitted because it shows that he has no regard for the law and wasn't the choir boy that we are supposed to think he is.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Here we go again, ignoring that which we disagree with. The THC trace isn't indicative of an anger enhancing stimulant, it is purely an indication that he has no regard for the law and isn't the innocent little kid that was depicted in the baby pictures.

Because he has a trace of THC in his system he has "no regard for the law and isn't the innocent little kid that was depicted . . ."; wake up that makes half the American population geriatric sociopathic killers? Give us all a break!