**Notre Dame Combine Invitees: Results & Analysis**

[koonja]

Lots of strawmen getting knocked down here.



Who has ever said this? I can't recall anyone claiming that Longo is "the best in the biz", or something like that.



Speaking of other things no one said.

And how is "wait 'til Longo gets ahold of him" undeserved praise? We've got a legitimate BCS-caliber S & C program now. For recruits who have a good frame, but are physically undeveloped, "wait 'til Longo gets ahold of him" is a fair way of saying "I don't think he's close to his ceiling physically yet."

Again, no one has ever claimed Longo is a miracle worker.

I guess it's a matter of semantics or perception. When someone says 'just wait to until this kid goes through Longo's program', I take it as they're completely baptized by the on the field results, which in my opinion, as far as athleticism, are yet to be seen. Conditioning? Playing well in the 4th? Absolutely. But, again, there's no measure of a 'fast team', and saying a team is 'athletic', is like the Supreme Court's ruling on porn; They don't know how to measure it or define it, but they know it when they see it. I don't know how to measure an 'athletic' team, but I know it when I see it, and as far as elite programs go, we are behind them on athleticism.

 

[ND NYC]

I don't think anyone said any of that. Just that anyone who thinks he's devised a world-beater S/C program should pump the brakes, grab some popcorn, and take a look at Alabama's players for a second.

all longo needs is ample supply of deer antler spray, kids not worrying or spending anytime on academics and all of it on football...and 33% more guys to work with (oversigning)...and he'll get er done, no problem.

 

[koonja]

Who's better than Longo...J/w.

I literally know one SC coach in the country, and it's Longo. And even then, as previously stated, I've never heard him speak, I've never seen him, I know nothing about him. There are better SC coaches I'm sure. You can't tell me Alabama's product on the field is a result of great coaching and great recruiting. Without knowing anything about their SC coach, I'd trade him for Longo in a heartbeat. Again, not to use Alabama as the measuring stick, but there are teams that recruit about as well as we do, and they're much more athletic. You can see it when they play. See, FSU.

 

[koonja]

all longo needs is ample supply of deer antler spray, kids not worrying or spending anytime on academics and all of it on football...and 33% more guys to work with (oversigning)...and he'll get er done, no problem.

Lol, that all helps, no doubt. Serious question, have any of you had experience with the antler spray? Is it illegal in the NCAA?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I guess it's a matter of semantics or perception. When someone says 'just wait to until this kid goes through Longo's program', I take it as they're completely baptized by the on the field results, which in my opinion, as far as athleticism, are yet to be seen. Conditioning? Playing well in the 4th? Absolutely. But, again, there's no measure of a 'fast team', and saying a team is 'athletic', is like the Supreme Court's ruling on porn; They don't know how to measure it or define it, but they know it when they see it. I don't know how to measure an 'athletic' team, but I know it when I see it, and as far as elite programs go, we are behind them on athleticism.

I interpret the comment as confidence that Longo will maximize each player's athletic potential; not an endorsement of our team speed vis a vis 'Bama or some other relative benchmark.

If anything, the disappointing showing some of our former starters had at the Combine reinforces this. We overachieved in 2012. The coaching staff led a team without elite athleticism to an undefeated season and the title game.

So just imagine what will happen when we've got "SEC speed" all over the field.

 

[greyhammer90]

I guess it's a matter of semantics or perception. When someone says 'just wait to until this kid goes through Longo's program', I take it as they're completely baptized by the on the field results, which in my opinion, as far as athleticism, are yet to be seen. Conditioning? Playing well in the 4th? Absolutely. But, again, there's no measure of a 'fast team', and saying a team is 'athletic', is like the Supreme Court's ruling on porn; They don't know how to measure it or define it, but they know it when they see it. I don't know how to measure an 'athletic' team, but I know it when I see it, and as far as elite programs go, we are behind them on athleticism.

We'll be sure to say "Wait till he has a year in a collegiate strength and conditioning program" from now on. Just to spare your delicate sensitivity to undeserved praise.

 

[koonja]

I interpret the comment as confidence that Longo will maximize each player's athletic potential; not an endorsement of our team speed vis a vis 'Bama or some other relative benchmark.

If anything, the disappointing showing some of our former starters had at the Combine reinforces this. We overachieved in 2012. The coaching staff led a team without elite athleticism to an undefeated season and the title game.

So just imagine what will happen when we've got "SEC speed" all over the field.

I agree with all of this, including the point that I'm interpreting it differently than you and others are. To me, it sometimes sounds like fans think he's this training wizard that waves a magical program in front of you and it gives us a distinct leg up in athleticism over almost anyone.

About over achieving, totally agree. BK and company did overachieve in a major way, and with the way we're headed in recruiting we are going to be a top 10 team every year as long as we have BK and his staff (Longo included).

 

[koonja]

We'll be sure to say "Wait till he has a year in a collegiate strength and conditioning program" from now on. Just to spare your delicate sensitivity to undeserved praise.

Are you the new HCTI now or what? We're just having a friendly debate. And obviously I'm not the only one that thinks the Longo praise and phrase is exaggerated.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I literally know one SC coach in the country, and it's Longo. And even then, as previously stated, I've never heard him speak, I've never seen him, I know nothing about him. There are better SC coaches I'm sure. You can't tell me Alabama's product on the field is a result of great coaching and great recruiting. Without knowing anything about their SC coach, I'd trade him for Longo in a heartbeat. Again, not to use Alabama as the measuring stick, but there are teams that recruit about as well as we do, and they're much more athletic. You can see it when they play. See, FSU.

How can you possibly begin to separate these factors from the finished product? Based on what we know, 'Bama's "secret sauce" is oversigning (they sign an entire extra recruiting class every 3-4 years); that means they have studs at every position, talented depth on the benches, and virtually no dead weight. That's what they're doing that no one else is.

I've seen no indication that there's anything special about their S & C program.

Lol, that all helps, no doubt. Serious question, have any of you had experience with the antler spray? Is it illegal in the NCAA?

IIRC, it contains small amounts of a banned substance (IGF-1). Seems unlikely that it has any real effect in such concentrations though.

 

[greyhammer90]

Are you the new HCTI now or what? We're just having a friendly debate.

Not sure what the HCTI comment means, but I'm disagreeing with your side of the debate. It's a weird, overly-semantic, non-important thing to get upset about. It's the definition of a non-issue. You're essentially telling people to stop saying something that you've completely misconstrued in the first place. So my answer to your request to "Cool it" when talking about a recruit's potential increase in athleticism after a year in a BCS level S&C program is "No".

 

[koonja]

How can you possibly begin to separate these factors from the finished product? Based on what we know, 'Bama's "secret sauce" is oversigning (they sign an entire extra recruiting class every 3-4 years); that means they have studs at every position, talented depth on the benches, and virtually no dead weight. That's what they're doing that no one else is.



IIRC, it contains small amounts of a banned substance (IGF-1). Seems unlikely that it has any real effect in such concentrations though.

Doesn't the rest of the SEC do that too? Unless you are giving Saban that much credit as being far and away a better coach than the rest of the SEC, how are they gaining an advantage in a conference where almost everyone over signs, everyone has lax academics, etc.,? Alabama >>>> the rest of the SEC. I'm speculating, but I assume part of the separation is due to a phenomenal S/C program.

 

[koonja]

Not sure what the HCTI comment means, but I'm disagreeing with your side of the debate. It's a weird, overly-semantic, non-important thing to get upset about. It's the definition of a non-issue. You're essentially telling people to stop saying something that you've completely misconstrued in the first place. So my answer to your request to "Cool it" when talking about a recruit's potential increase in athleticism after a year in a BCS level S&C program is "No".

I'm speaking for everyone I think, but no one is upset. Do you think every time there's a debate with 2 or more opposing opinions, someone's stomping their feet on the other side of the keyboard? I hope that's not the case, lol.

Just trying to mold some minds.

Carry on.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Doesn't the rest of the SEC do that too? Unless you are giving Saban that much credit as being far and away a better coach than the rest of the SEC, how are they gaining an advantage in a conference where almost everyone over signs, everyone has lax academics, etc.,? Alabama >>>> the rest of the SEC. I'm speculating, but I assume part of the separation is due to a phenomenal S/C program.

It's a combination of things. Saban is legitimately the best coach in the nation, so they have a serious edge there. And they're now a dynasty, so they get to pick and choose among the nation's best recruits every year. The advantages of oversigning are amplified by the quality of recruits your program can attract, so the practice is much more effective for 'Bama than for, say, Arkansas or Ole Miss.

Again, how do you propose we separate 'Bama's S&C program from the fact that their roster is full of 4 and 5 recruits, and they've got the best coach in the nation?

 

[koonja]

It's a combination of things. Saban is legitimately the best coach in the nation, so they have a serious edge there. And they're now a dynasty, so they get to pick and choose among the nation's best recruits every year. The advantages of oversigning are amplified by the quality of recruits your program can attract, so the practice is much more effective for 'Bama than for, say, Arkansas or Ole Miss.

Agree with Saban being the best, but I don't think his coaching is far and away better than BKs, David Shaw's, Les Mile's, probably a few others that I am missing. If BK had Saban's classes, lax academics, and recruiting prestige, I think BK could win multiple titles too.

Do you think it's fair to assume they have a tremendous S/C program/coach as well? They're turning 5-stars into 5-stars for the most part. They are getting everything out of their classes.

 

[ND NYC]

if only KSU or Oregon had gone undefeated this year in the regular season

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Agree with Saban being the best, but I don't think his coaching is far and away better than BKs, David Shaw's, Les Mile's, probably a few others that I am missing. If BK had Saban's classes, lax academics, and recruiting prestige, I think BK could win multiple titles too.

I agree completely, because that's the primary difference between their programs; not the S & C coaches.

Do you think it's fair to assume they have a tremendous S/C program/coach as well? They're turning 5-stars into 5-stars for the most part. They are getting everything out of their classes.

I don't. Their on-field success is, imo, fully attributable to their recruiting advantages and quality of coaching. Their S & C program is undoubtedly top notch, as good as any in the BCS. But I've seen nothing that makes me think it's somehow better than everyone else's.

AFAIK, there's no real magic to such programs. There are a few different major philosophies out there (Olympic lifting, functional training, etc.), but by and large everyone is using the same methods.

 

[PraetorianND]

I interpret the comment as confidence that Longo will maximize each player's athletic potential; not an endorsement of our team speed vis a vis 'Bama or some other relative benchmark.

If anything, the disappointing showing some of our former starters had at the Combine reinforces this. We overachieved in 2012. The coaching staff led a team without elite athleticism to an undefeated season and the title game.

So just imagine what will happen when we've got "SEC speed" all over the field.

I agree with this. Think about what BK was able to accomplish at Cincy with far worse talent than ND this year. Mardy Gilyard only ran a 4.6 40 at the combine and he was the best player on that team by far.

Having elite talent all over the field is awesome but we forget how much of a team sport this is. The combine laughably ignores many of the most important factors of the game like leadership, teamwork, heart, intensity, understanding of game plan/scheme, etc.

ND definitely has the intangibles; the sky is the limit when we have elite athletes all over the field.

 

[irishpat183]

I'm speaking for everyone I think, but no one is upset. Do you think every time there's a debate with 2 or more opposing opinions, someone's stomping their feet on the other side of the keyboard? I hope that's not the case, lol.

Just trying to mold some minds.

Carry on.

Seriously.


I'm on my third computer screen this morning because someone disagrees with me about ND's S&C coach. LOL.

It's a discussion. I'm with you, Kuehnja on this issue. "Wait til Longo gets ahold of him" is overblown.

Nothing against the guy, I just don't think he's special or irreplaceable. Did we forget about our guys getting pushed around by Bama like little b*tches in the NCG?

 

[greyhammer90]

I'm speaking for everyone I think, but no one is upset. Do you think every time there's a debate with 2 or more opposing opinions, someone's stomping their feet on the other side of the keyboard? I hope that's not the case, lol.

Just trying to mold some minds.

Carry on.

When I say "get upset" I meant "take issue with". Not that you were literally frothing with rage at the mention of Longo. I thought that was fairly obvious, but I suppose I should have remembered semantics is why this debate is happening in the first place. Keep molding minds and I'll keep molding men.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Nothing against the guy, I just don't think he's special or irreplaceable. Did we forget about our guys getting pushed around by Bama like little b*tches in the NCG?

Clearly, that was Longo's fault. While 'Bama's players were training at the foot of Olympus under Chiron, Longo had our guys doing jumping jacks.

 

[koonja]

When I say "get upset" I meant "take issue with". Not that you were literally frothing with rage at the mention of Longo. I thought that was fairly obvious, but I suppose I should have remembered semantics is why this debate is happening in the first place. Keep molding minds and I'll keep molding men.

Lol, well played at the end. We should really not even debate this without Trinity being involved.

 

[PANDFAN]

Lol, that all helps, no doubt. Serious question, have any of you had experience with the antler spray? Is it illegal in the NCAA?

How can you possibly begin to separate these factors from the finished product? Based on what we know, 'Bama's "secret sauce" is oversigning (they sign an entire extra recruiting class every 3-4 years); that means they have studs at every position, talented depth on the benches, and virtually no dead weight. That's what they're doing that no one else is.

I've seen no indication that there's anything special about their S & C program.



IIRC, it contains small amounts of a banned substance (IGF-1). Seems unlikely that it has any real effect in such concentrations though.

there is such trace amounts it has NO effect.but is still banned

 

[koonja]

Clearly, that was Longo's fault. While 'Bama's players were training at the foot of Olympus under Chiron, Longo had our guys doing jumping jacks.

Ok, that was funny. But I think that among others, Irishpat and I are not sold on Longo yet. To be clear, let me reiterate that I think he's improved the shape of the players and their conditioning. I think he's better than most, but I don't see on the field athleticism that I do for other teams that recruit with comparable success to ND's. FSU, Clemson, Florida, A&M, UCLA are just a few teams that have recruited about as well as ND has, and they, in my opinion, are noticeably more athletic on the field.

 

[PraetorianND]

there is such trace amounts it has NO effect.but is still banned...

Placebo effect though. I'm using it right now at work and I'm feeling JACKED UP!

 

[NDinFL]

I'll leave this here.

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/oth...2-interesting-read-strength-conditioning.html

That's about the 5th time I've had to reference this, and for those of you that believe Longo is overrated, or whatever the f*ck you're claiming.

Read that

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Ok, that was funny. But I think that among others, Irishpat and I are not sold on Longo yet. To be clear, let me reiterate that I think he's improved the shape of the players and their conditioning. I think he's better than most, but I don't see on the field athleticism that I do for other teams that recruit with comparable success to ND's.

That has a lot more to do with recruiting than it does with the S&C program.

FSU, Clemson, Florida, A&M, UCLA are just a few teams that have recruited about as well as ND has, and they, in my opinion, are noticeably more athletic on the field.

I trust I don't need to delve into why Weis' recruiting classes were flawed here.

Kelly just wrapped up his 3rd full recruiting class. 2013 will be the first year where his own players will be starting in most positions, so I don't think it's fair to point at the last three years as proof that Kelly isn't recruiting competitive athletes, or Longo isn't maximizing their athletic potential. If we continue to lag behind the apparent BCS standard in 2013 and 2014, then you may have a case, but not yet.

Seriously, take a look at our roster. Where are you seeing an athletic deficit? OL is the only position that pops out at me, and that was addressed in a major way during the last cycle.

 

[koonja]

I'll leave this here.

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/oth...2-interesting-read-strength-conditioning.html

That's about the 5th time I've had to reference this, and for those of you that believe Longo is overrated, or whatever the f*ck you're claiming.

Read that

IDK what that has to do with Longo. He's literally no part of the article, but greyhamer90, I think we finally found out who IS upset, lol.

 

[koonja]

That has a lot more to do with recruiting than it does with the S&C program.



I trust I don't need to delve into why Weis' recruiting classes were flawed here.

Kelly just wrapped up his 3rd full recruiting class. 2013 will be the first year where his own players will be starting in most positions, so I don't think it's fair to point at the last three years as proof that Kelly isn't recruiting competitive athletes, or Longo isn't maximizing their athletic potential. If we continue to lag behind the apparent BCS standard in 2013 and 2014, then you may have a case, but not yet.

Seriously, take a look at our roster. Where are you seeing an athletic deficit? OL is the only position that pops out at me, and that was addressed in a major way during the last cycle.

That spreadsheet is nice. I'll talk about last year's team, since this coming year's players get the benefit of the doubt, with ample time to improve their fitness.

I'd say ILB is a big one, spare Te'o. Calabrese, even Fox are pretty below average to average in space, and they're the best we have. Our safeties are very unathletic (Redfield/Baratti-who I still don't buy that electric 4.45) should fix this. We have the most unathletic special teams in the top 25, spare Atkinson. On offense we're pretty good all around, but not spectacular (Neal, Chris brown, James O., Torri Hunter JR all see to have bright futures). If a team, as a whole, has a great SC program that promotes athleticism, IMO it should show the most on special teams. Special teams is where almost everyone contributes, back ups included. Sure, we have a handful of athletic guys, but look at how poor our special teams are. Athletes make plays on special teams. Now someone will point to the Utah blocked field goal, and that was an exceptional play, but it was also an isolated incident.

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

What program(s) are some of you thinking of that take average athletes and make them fast and more athletic?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'd say ILB is a big one, spare Te'o. Calabrese, even Fox are pretty below average to average in space, and they're the best we have.

All Weis guys. Unfortunately, due to Anzalone's defection, this isn't an area where Kelly has recruited well. We'll have to hope Grace, Deeb and some transplants (Councell, Randolph, etc.) turn out to be athletic upgrades.

Our safeties are very unathletic (Redfield/Baratti-who I still don't buy that electric 4.45) should fix this.

Motta's an average athlete (though the trio of Smith, Slaughter and Motta was pretty solid). Going forward, we'll have Shumate, Redfield, Baratti, Farley and Collinsworth. Can't really complaint about athleticism there.

We have the most unathletic special teams in the top 25, spare Atkinson. On offense we're pretty good all around, but not spectacular (Neal, Chris brown, James O., Torri Hunter JR all see to have bright futures). If a team, as a whole, has a great SC program that promotes athleticism, IMO it should show the most on special teams. Special teams is where almost everyone contributes, back ups included. Sure, we have a handful of athletic guys, but look at how poor our special teams are. Athletes make plays on special teams. Now someone will point to the Utah blocked field goal, and that was an exceptional play, but it was also an isolated incident.

Couple points-- I'd argue that: (1) the impact of the S&C program is most noticeable in the trenches; and (2) a bunch of factors combined to undermine our ST in 2012.

2nd and 3rd string DBs tend to be important ST players, because they've generally got the best combination of athleticism and tackling ability. Well, we whiffed on DBs in the 2012 class, and then we had a rash of injuries in our secondary. We barely had enough bodies for ST, let alone the caliber of athletes needed to excel. As Kelly has stated several times, ST should improve considerably when the 2013 class hits campus.