Know Your Rights

Irish Houstonian

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1.) Arguing apples and oranges, "rights" or "duties" is irrelevant, the point is that cops have been afforded grounds by the state because of their position to "stop" people and also have "right" or "duties" to contact people

2.) In another article, in reference to this same kid, there is also a report that over 20 people called in on this individual which more than merits a "stop" and the officer never infringed on his rights in fact the officer was probably too leniant. I have been an officer for 7 plus years and I am also a field training officer and I can guarantee you that I would have been more firm with this kid about "stops" and "providing identifying information" to police officers doing there job. The only issue is Maine allows open carrying, most states do not so if he pulled that in Denver that wouldnt have flyed and he certainly would have had to give his name and date of birth or risk being charged with obstruction.

That's sort of the whole point of the video -- regardless of what powers cops think they have, they still have to follow the Constitution. No city, state, ethical code, experience, judgement, badge, etc., can give any cop powers beyond that.

And it doesn't matter if there's a million calls about the kid. If what he's doing is legal, and there's no reasonable suspicion he's in the process of committing a crime, then you can't stop and/or frisk him. Period.

If you're saying that in another state he would have been breaking the law, and you would have stopped him, then that's not totally relevant but I commend you. On the other hand, if you're saying that you think your own reasonableness and experience in law enforcement takes precedent over peoples' Constitutional rights, then you're proving my very thesis. The whole "I'm a cop and would have taken a much tougher stance" thing is the very attitude by which cops break the law.
 

jerboski

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Wouldn't he have been arrested if he were breaking any law. This is clearly a moot point.



Did he do anything illegal?



I think you're assuming a lot here.



It's really not hard to find a myriad of instances online showing cases of cops abusing their position. There are plenty of find cops, I don't disagree with that.

I know plenty of cops. Probably a dozen or so. Good ones and dipshits there for the pensions while solely wielding a radar gun.



"Maybe" is the key word, and a horrible cause for search and/or seizure, which the courts have said and this guy repeated.



Tens of millions of people have stressful jobs. From the cops I know, not many of their jobs are actually that stressful. I'm make the claim that the vast majority of rural and suburban cops have it made in the shade.

But you know I agree with you, and I'd definitely want the cops to do 99% of what they did. Which, thankfully, was totally legal.



I've been on 5ish in my life. I've seen two different types of cops and, again, I respect he hell out of one side and general despise the other.

I was once jumped on campus at the University of Toledo on my 20th birthday and got to see cops come flying down the road at 60mph to my assistance (It's funny you mention the "defend yourself" bit, because I did :) ) they threw the guy in the cars for processing and I got to fill our reports and whatnot. They asked what I was doing there (on campus...?) and I simply told him it was my 20th birthday and I was walking to an off-campus party. To my surprise, they wished me happy birthday and said "it's a bit of a hike back..." and drove me to the party full of underage drinking and dropped me off! (By the way, COOLEST entrance ever)

I've also talked with cops who are employed by the state to solely go around to college towns and launch raids to catch underage drinking. I've spoken with judges who sometimes have a shift to keep their phones near them because they are "on call" on the weekend for when cops will find a house, call the judge for an immediate warrant, and bust the place. I've met cops who know full well they they ruin people's lives when the bust people for weed. It's disgusting. I don't know how you can't tell the difference.

Ohio State has actually had to lobby to get the neighborhood east of campus put in their jurisdiction do they can keep students away from Columbus cops. This fall Columbus cops issued over $80,000 in fines to students in JAY WALKING TICKETS, in one weekend! Under the new agreement, Columbus has shifted authority to Ohio State cops, who are incredibly respectful of students and handle things appropriately.

I've met cops who could care less about speeding tickets and don't issue them because they work in the poorest part of Toledo and fight real crime. Those guys do have a very dangerous job that does a great service for society. Others simply don't.

I certainly have the right to an opinion that the majority of cops are little more than overweight radar gun wielders with a great pension. To those who fight the good fight,



...aren't you doing the same thing?

If you can't see the huge difference, there's no point for me to type it out.



People in those professions have always respected me. I don't have a 100% favorability rate with cops, much much less than that.

That's sort of the whole point of the video -- regardless of what powers cops think they have, they still have to follow the Constitution. No city, state, ethical code, experience, judgement, badge, etc., can give any cop powers beyond that.

And it doesn't matter if there's a million calls about the kid. If what he's doing is legal, and there's no reasonable suspicion he's in the process of committing a crime, then you can't stop and/or frisk him. Period.

If you're saying that in another state he would have been breaking the law, and you would have stopped him, then that's not totally relevant but I commend you. On the other hand, if you're saying that you think your own reasonableness and experience in law enforcement takes precedent over peoples' Constitutional rights, then you're proving my very thesis. The whole "I'm a cop and would have taken a much tougher stance" thing is the very attitude by which cops break the law.

No I am not saying that what I am saying is what did the cop do wrong??? Last time I checked the officers allowed the kid to leave with his gun so how did they break his constitutional rights or how did I create my own reasonableness?
 

Irish#1

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Some cops are ok. Some have the nerd with a badge attitude and some are just plain smart *** pricks... The latter two usually outweigh the first.

Respect is earned, not automatically assumed because one has a badge.

You respect the badge, the person behind it second.

Every city has their share of dickead cops, but for the most part the vast majority do the right thing.
 

Irish Houstonian

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No I am not saying that what I am saying is what did the cop do wrong??? Last time I checked the officers allowed the kid to leave with his gun so how did they break his constitutional rights or how did I create my own reasonableness?

You could make a case that they broke the law when they stopped him to begin with and took his gun, but then they tried to detain and investigate him on the grounds that he "might be a felon". Cops can't do that, the kid knew it, and told them so, successfully. Again, that's the point of the video.
 
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PraetorianND

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No I am not saying that what I am saying is what did the cop do wrong??? Last time I checked the officers allowed the kid to leave with his gun so how did they break his constitutional rights or how did I create my own reasonableness?

They're upset at the "detention" and "questioning." They are probably upset that they had his gun (don't know if they took it or if he gave it to them, I'm guessing he gave it to them or it would have been much bloodier in the video). In effect the cops didn't do anything wrong here. Cops can talk to people if they want. They didn't search him and they didn't prevent him from going anywhere and as far as we know he gave the gun to them. Had they charged him with something he could have made a 4th Amendment argument and probably had the charges dropped. I doubt he'd win a civil case (even for $0 in damages if he proceeded just to make a point) against these cops which is a much lower burden of proof than criminal convictions (51% v 99%). The guess is just an opinion though, I don't really know.
 

Irish#1

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To me, the point of the video is not to be anti-cop per se, or pro-gun. In fact, the cop seems pretty cool about the whole situtation, contra many others.

The point was that this guy stood up to the cops when he knew he was right. And it worked. How many of us would have just given our name, license, etc., out of fear that the cop might arrest us for no reason? Most, if not all of us. And that's sad. We should never be afraid to exercise our Constitutional rights.

A cop can't stop you on the street at all unless there is a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are actively in the process of committing a crime. Not because you "fit the description" or you "look suspicous" or because they've "been dispatched".

I think if citizens start knowing (and articulating) their rights more, maybe the abusive cops wouldn't walk all over people so much.

Here's the problem with this whole thing. He may have been well within his rights to do what he did, but obviously some people thought he was a threat and called the police. Now what happens if the officer that arrives on the scene isn't so friendly and mistakes the kids movements and actions and thinks he's going to shoot? Next we have a dead citizen all because he wanted to prove a point. It didn't happen, but we all know it's not that far fetched.
 

jerboski

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You could make a case that they broke the law when they stopped him to begin with and took his gun, but then they tried to detain and investigate him on the grounds that he "might be a felon". Cops can't do that, the kid knew it, and told them so, successfully. Again, that's the point of the video.

I would argue they took his gun for their safety for the duration of the contact which is widely practiced in police work today and I would be very careful with this way of thinking bc with your premise the officer shouldn't contact people walking around with visible guns, makes me think what should we do if we see a guy walking around with a shotgun in the street, I guess recognize his second amendment right and wait for him to commit his crime, kind of defeats the purpose of Crime prevention
 

Irish Houstonian

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I'm sure they took the gun for safety reasons. But here that legally doesn't matter.

And it's not "my way of thinking", it's the Supreme Court's way of thinking. This is the 4th Amendment, and all this law has been settled for about 30 years.

The 4th Amendment does a lot to defeat crime prevention. But that's the cost of a 4th Amendment.
 

RallySonsOfND

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I would argue they took his gun for their safety for the duration of the contact which is widely practiced in police work today and I would be very careful with this way of thinking bc with your premise the officer shouldn't contact people walking around with visible guns, makes me think what should we do if we see a guy walking around with a shotgun in the street, I guess recognize his second amendment right and wait for him to commit his crime, kind of defeats the purpose of Crime prevention


So a cop should stop every person carrying a gun even though it is their legal right to do so? Obviously if they are openly carrying in a town/area where it isn't legal to do so they should be dealt with.

I've lived in small towns, and seeing shotguns wasn't a big deal. Get off the 'everybody who carries a gun is going to commit a crime' kick. You aren't getting anywhere.
 

JadeBrecks

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What are your thoughts on the two people in this video exchange? Which one was more respectful?

My thoughts on this. I do not believe baiting cops is ever a good thing especially with a firearm. There is a difference between this conversation happening during a stop or during a set up. Both people remained calm during this interaction. The cop was far more polite than any cop I have run into. He however disregarded everything the kid was saying. I personally can't tell you if everything the kid said was right or not but assuming it was I would have to say IN the video the kid was more respectful. Everything he says and when he says it is in reference to what the cop is going to do. Now if the kid baited the cop this exact interaction shouldn't have taken place. Being a law abiding citizen who carries I can tell you this encounter happens and the cops overstep their boundaries. It is funny however that people are outraged when a person slams a cop like this but nobody cares when the cops overstep their boundaries and take peoples firearms unlawfully.
 

jerboski

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So a cop should stop every person carrying a gun even though it is their legal right to do so? Obviously if they are openly carrying in a town/area where it isn't legal to do so they should be dealt with.

I've lived in small towns, and seeing shotguns wasn't a big deal. Get off the 'everybody who carries a gun is going to commit a crime' kick. You aren't getting anywhere.

Carries and openly carrying are two different stories, and never did I say possessing a gun should be a crime, I'm gun carrier myself! My point is openly carrying a gun and then getting into a meaningless dispute with a police officer doing his job is a nuisance to say the least, please explain to me When I said possessing a gun means your going to commit a crime
 

JadeBrecks

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I would argue they took his gun for their safety for the duration of the contact which is widely practiced in police work today and I would be very careful with this way of thinking bc with your premise the officer shouldn't contact people walking around with visible guns, makes me think what should we do if we see a guy walking around with a shotgun in the street, I guess recognize his second amendment right and wait for him to commit his crime, kind of defeats the purpose of Crime prevention

I personally don't care how the cop feels. I would not let him grab my gun off me unannounced like that. I would also warn you to be careful of that thinking too. Can a cop pull anyone over driving a car because they may be currently or in the future commit a crime with it? What about someone carrying a knife? Just because you carry a gun doesn't make you a criminal. I can legally carry a gun. I should not be required to prove my innocence every where I go.
 

jerboski

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I personally don't care how the cop feels. I would not let him grab my gun off me unannounced like that. I would also warn you to be careful of that thinking too. Can a cop pull anyone over driving a car because they may be currently or in the future commit a crime with it? What about someone carrying a knife? Just because you carry a gun doesn't make you a criminal. I can legally carry a gun. I should not be required to prove my innocence every where I go.

The point isnt about carrying the gun, the point is openly carrying it. There are many citizens in Colorado that possess a firearm and have concealed handguns license, I have no issue with this and support that. I do have real reservations about people being able to walk down the street openly displaying weapons and walking around with AR-15'S on the street. Sorry, I have a child and if I saw a guy or a young man walking around with a gun out in open sight, I would have some real concerns and would absolutely support the police stopping him and seeing whats going on.
 

JadeBrecks

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The point isnt about carrying the gun, the point is openly carrying it. There are many citizens in Colorado that possess a firearm and have concealed handguns license, I have no issue with this and support that. I do have real reservations about people being able to walk down the street openly displaying weapons and walking around with AR-15'S on the street. Sorry, I have a child and if I saw a guy or a young man walking around with a gun out in open sight, I would have some real concerns and would absolutely support the police stopping him and seeing whats going on.

I don't know how it is in your state but Indiana does not require you to conceal your carry gun. You are issued a licence to carry and how you wish to is up to you. What difference does it make if you can see it or not. Does the gun magically not do the same thing because it is in an inside the waste band holster rather than outside? You would promote the cops stopping me while I am being perfectly legal?
 

jerboski

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I don't know how it is in your state but Indiana does not require you to conceal your carry gun. You are issued a licence to carry and how you wish to is up to you. What difference does it make if you can see it or not. Does the gun magically not do the same thing because it is in an inside the waste band holster rather than outside? You would promote the cops stopping me while I am being perfectly legal?

The difference being it doesnt alarm everyone else, why do you need to openly display it? I have no problems with gun and like I stated earlier I believe we should be able to own and possess gun but I also believe they should be concealed in the public environment. I of course support hunting and other wildlife but you are right I dont support openly carrying a firearm. As far as being stopped, I would say this if I saw you or anyone else walking around with an open firearm in my community or street then yes I would like an officer to speak to you but I dont have to worry about that here because weapons are concealer here, thankfully.
 

autry_denson

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Autry, any idea what happened to the officers he recorded? Did they receive any kind of disciplinary action?

good question, I highly doubt whether there was disciplinary action but I don't know for sure.

I was talking to someone in the NYPD the other day about the growing scrutiny on SQF activity who made a great point about how difficult the issue is. On the one hand, everyone acknowledges that there are serious abuses that occur on a daily basis by a small number of cops who have the power to stop kids for no reason at all (e.g. living in a high crime area is commonly given as the reason for the stop in official data files). On the other hand, this is a longstanding technique used by every police department across the country, and outlawing it is or even substantially limiting officers' use of SQF is unrealistic.

I may be naive, but I am holding out hope that technology may help minimize the problem inherent in police/civilian interactions. check out this article - if this worked well I think it could change policing dramatically: Police Test New Scanner - WSJ.com
 

RallySonsOfND

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Carries and openly carrying are two different stories, and never did I say possessing a gun should be a crime, I'm gun carrier myself! My point is openly carrying a gun and then getting into a meaningless dispute with a police officer doing his job is a nuisance to say the least, please explain to me When I said possessing a gun means your going to commit a crime

Right here.

makes me think what should we do if we see a guy walking around with a shotgun in the street, I guess recognize his second amendment right and wait for him to commit his crime, kind of defeats the purpose of Crime prevention

How are they different stories is they are both LEGAL?

Should cops pull over a sports car instead of a minivan because it is more evident the sports car could commit a crime (speeding)?
 

RallySonsOfND

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The difference being it doesnt alarm everyone else, why do you need to openly display it? I have no problems with gun and like I stated earlier I believe we should be able to own and possess gun but I also believe they should be concealed in the public environment. I of course support hunting and other wildlife but you are right I dont support openly carrying a firearm. As far as being stopped, I would say this if I saw you or anyone else walking around with an open firearm in my community or street then yes I would like an officer to speak to you but I dont have to worry about that here because weapons are concealer here, thankfully.


I hate it when people start throwing out the argument about someone else's needs. That is a slippery slope to go down.
 

JadeBrecks

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The difference being it doesnt alarm everyone else, why do you need to openly display it? I have no problems with gun and like I stated earlier I believe we should be able to own and possess gun but I also believe they should be concealed in the public environment. I of course support hunting and other wildlife but you are right I dont support openly carrying a firearm. As far as being stopped, I would say this if I saw you or anyone else walking around with an open firearm in my community or street then yes I would like an officer to speak to you but I dont have to worry about that here because weapons are concealer here, thankfully.

Why do I need to justify all my actions to be able to do it? Why do I have to show you a need to do something? It is legal. The gun doesn't do anything different holstered one place or the other. As far as people being alarmed by it you really don't want to go there. If you can stop me because you can see a gun on me can you stop me because of my color? I know people who are alarmed by people based on there color, tattoos, piercings, or physical makeup. Should it be ok to stop someone based on these reasons because people are alarmed?

As far as grammar don't worry I understand. As long as I can make out what you are saying. :awesomewo
 

jerboski

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Right here.



How are they different stories is they are both LEGAL?

Should cops pull over a sports car instead of a minivan because it is more evident the sports car could commit a crime (speeding)?

So your saying a cop shouldnt contact someone walking down a public street toting a shotgun or a pistol? Come on man, thats ridiculous and driving a sports car is entirely different than firearms.
 

RallySonsOfND

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So your saying a cop shouldnt contact someone walking down a public street toting a shotgun or a pistol? Come on man, thats ridiculous and driving a sports car is entirely different than firearms.

If it is legal to do so, no. Definitely evident who has grown up in small towns, and who hasn't.

How is driving a sports car completely different? You can commit crimes with both.


Maybe I'm just biased because my 1 and only "run in" with law-enforcement I was 100% profiled.
 

jerboski

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Why do I need to justify all my actions to be able to do it? Why do I have to show you a need to do something? It is legal. The gun doesn't do anything different holstered one place or the other. As far as people being alarmed by it you really don't want to go there. If you can stop me because you can see a gun on me can you stop me because of my color? I know people who are alarmed by people based on there color, tattoos, piercings, or physical makeup. Should it be ok to stop someone based on these reasons because people are alarmed?

As far as grammar don't worry I understand. As long as I can make out what you are saying. :awesomewo

Bro, we arent going to get anywhere with this. Of course, I dont agree with stops based on race, gender or sexuality or any other physical variance because race or gender type isnt able to inflict harm on another person while guns can. Once again, I will say I support gun ownership lol I am a police officer and the majority of us do, but I certainly think openly displaying them is cause for alarm and serves no purpose other than to alarm. I read an article in Maine that says a guy carrying an AR-15 down a street got over 70 calls to the police department in a matter of minutes and that isnt alarming anyone???
 
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PraetorianND

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Switzerland-Sig-SG-550-Apple-Store-Open-Carry.jpg


zagu8ezu.jpg


So unnecessary. Only doing this for attention or to prove a point (which can be made in better ways).
 

jerboski

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If it is legal to do so, no. Definitely evident who has grown up in small towns, and who hasn't.

How is driving a sports car completely different? You can commit crimes with both.


Maybe I'm just biased because my 1 and only "run in" with law-enforcement I was 100% profiled.

True, you can commit crimes with both but I could commit crimes with a pencil and a book, my point is openly displaying weapons is going to cause alarms in alot of peoples minds and granted, if it is legal where you live then you have every right to do it and the police cant arrest you for it but my question would be how should the cops react? They are called out on a suspicious person with a gun so should they do nothing until this guy decides commit a crime or should they contact the person and make sure they are sane people choosing to exercise their legal rights?
 
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PraetorianND

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Exactly, carrying an AR-15 to the mall, where is the purpose in that?

Self defense I suppose. I mean, it's legal. Just stupid, dangerous, and ultimately self righteous. Walking down the street with a pistol open carry (holstered) is not nearly as ridiculous though. I can see both causing alarm in people and causing them to call authorities. Either way it's unnecessary in my opinion.

That being said that dude's AR is pretty sweet.
 

JadeBrecks

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Bro, we arent going to get anywhere with this. Of course, I dont agree with stops based on race, gender or sexuality or any other physical variance because race or gender type isnt able to inflict harm on another person while guns can. Once again, I will say I support gun ownership lol I am a police officer and the majority of us do, but I certainly think openly displaying them is cause for alarm and serves no purpose other than to alarm. I read an article in Maine that says a guy carrying an AR-15 down a street got over 70 calls to the police department in a matter of minutes and that isnt alarming anyone???

So as a police officer do you conceal your firearm? I can tell you it makes a big difference when I carry concealed or open. When I carry open I use a blackhawk serpa holster. That is a heck of a lot easier to get to than an inside the waste band holster with a shirt pulled over it. You say it alarms people? Why is that completely evil? I have opened carried when I have to go to high crime rate areas. It lets people know I'm not just some scrawny out of place visitor and to leave me alone.

As far as stops being made by differences it isn't any different. You are stereotyping me because I have a gun and the same thing could be done on the rest of the differences to cause alarm.
 

nlroma1o

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Honest question. Is it considered an open carried weapon to have you hand gun holstered on the outside of your belt? Or is that considered concealed?
 

JadeBrecks

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Exactly, carrying an AR-15 to the mall, where is the purpose in that?

I'm sure the three dead in the Oregon mall shooting would have taken a bit of overkill to defend themselves rather than nothing.
 
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