Opinions/Discussions on Guns

[Downinthebend]

Of course liberty should end when it directly hurts others...

I love this quote.

Yes liberty should end when it directly hurts others. The liberty of someone trying to kill you isn't and shouldn't be considered by the police, or for that matter, anyone else. However my liberty to choose a car that can go 150 miles an hour is not the liberty to be punished when someone uses a similar car while drunk.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

Chicago is proof that gun control won't make things like this go away...

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...obamas-inauguration-shot-dead-in-chicago?lite

 

[pkt77242]

Chicago is proof that gun control won't make things like this go away...

'Walking angel': Girl who performed at Obama's inauguration shot dead in Chicago - U.S. News

I don't think that anyone is trying to say that these laws would prevent all killings. In fact, this arguement is just crazy talk. What people are saying is that reasonable gun laws such as banning certain assault rifles (or all of them) and limiting clip size might help to reduce the amount of people that are killed during these mass shootings. Also common sense things like requiring background checks for all purchases (yes some states more or less require this but some states still don't) and a better mental healthcare system will also help to reduce the amount of them as well.

I don't see too many people calling for a complete ban on all guns (yes some are but just about as many crazy people are the complete opposite way and think that everyone should own a gun because that would prevent this).

Also read these studies

MMS: Error

Harvard School of Public Health » Harvard Injury Control Research Center » Gun Threats and Self-Defense Gun Use

Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study

There is many more that I can link but I hate the self-defense arguement. Sigh.

 

[chicago51]

Chicago is proof that gun control won't make things like this go away...

'Walking angel': Girl who performed at Obama's inauguration shot dead in Chicago - U.S. News

Chicago doesn't have a berlin wall around it. Why can't someone just go outside the city to by a gun. Illinois does not have tight gun restrictions and even if it did Chicago borders the Indiana state line.

If you look at New York and LA who are more insulated in states with statewide gun control; those cities have seen a steady decline in gun violence.

It is easy to cross state lines so the Chicago argument is invalid.

 

[Downinthebend]

Chicago doesn't have a berlin wall around it. Why can't someone just go outside the city to by a gun. Illinois does not have tight gun restrictions and even if it did Chicago borders the Indiana state line.

If you look at New York and LA who are more insulated in states with statewide gun control; those cities have seen a steady decline in gun violence.

It is easy to cross state lines so the Chicago argument is invalid.

The US doesn't have a Berlin wall either (as has been exhaustively proven by our immigration situation). Where does that logic stop? Hell, if we can't control the importation of drugs into our country (why we want to ban a product that only causes harm to the user that our populace desires is beyond me, but meh) why would we be able to control the importation of arms?

Now if you say, but it might prevent x number of shootings! Well, I don't really care for that argument.

I for one would prefer not to live in terror of people with ill intent holding guns, without holding a gun myself.

From my experiences talking with Chicago-ins that is the situation they are in: many live in terror of the people with ill intent that have the guns, while they have none, or of course they "illegally" buy guns for self defense.

But anyways, circles, circles everywhere.

 

[DSully1995]

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

Been away most of the day, thanks for the stats Jade, does validate pro-gun stance


Corrupt federally licensed gun dealers: Federally licensed gun dealers send more guns to the criminal market than any other single source. Nearly 60% of the guns used in crime are traced back to a small number—just 1.2%—of crooked gun dealers. Corrupt dealers frequently have high numbers of missing guns, in many cases because they’re selling guns “off the books” to private sellers and criminals. In 2005, the ATF examined 3,083 gun dealers and found 12,274 “missing” firearms.


Seems more like a retail problem than possession, and ATF hasnt had a Head of the ATF in years

With al you guys showed Il agree that the US doesnt need to ban guns, but there must be way to crack down on corrupt retail owners.

 

[pkt77242]

Been away most of the day, thanks for the stats Jade, does validate pro-gun stance


Corrupt federally licensed gun dealers: Federally licensed gun dealers send more guns to the criminal market than any other single source. Nearly 60% of the guns used in crime are traced back to a small number—just 1.2%—of crooked gun dealers. Corrupt dealers frequently have high numbers of missing guns, in many cases because they’re selling guns “off the books” to private sellers and criminals. In 2005, the ATF examined 3,083 gun dealers and found 12,274 “missing” firearms.


Seems more like a retail problem than possession, and ATF hasnt had a Head of the ATF in years

With al you guys showed Il agree that the US doesnt need to ban guns, but there must be way to crack down on corrupt retail owners.

NRA won't let them. Nice try.

Not only has the NRA got congress to pass laws to basically kill research on gun violence (because it looks really bad) and this

"It’s not just the CDC that’s been hamstrung by the gun lobby. In 2003, Rep. Todd Tiahrt, a Kansas Republican, inserted an amendment into the law funding the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, restricting its ability to release firearms trace data. The data had previously been used to develop policies to combat illegal gun trafficking. In their letter to Biden, the researchers urged that those restrictions be lifted."

Blackout: How the NRA suppressed gun violence research — MSNBC

As I have already posted this

MMS: Error
and this
Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. [N Engl J Med. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI

The NRA killed all government sponsored research that might be helpful after these studies came out.

 

[JadeBrecks]

Been away most of the day, thanks for the stats Jade, does validate pro-gun stance


Corrupt federally licensed gun dealers: Federally licensed gun dealers send more guns to the criminal market than any other single source. Nearly 60% of the guns used in crime are traced back to a small number—just 1.2%—of crooked gun dealers. Corrupt dealers frequently have high numbers of missing guns, in many cases because they’re selling guns “off the books” to private sellers and criminals. In 2005, the ATF examined 3,083 gun dealers and found 12,274 “missing” firearms.


Seems more like a retail problem than possession, and ATF hasnt had a Head of the ATF in years

With al you guys showed Il agree that the US doesnt need to ban guns, but there must be way to crack down on corrupt retail owners.

It was called "Fast and Furious" Those gun dealers were forced by the government to sell those firearms to people they knew shouldn't have been able to buy them. I will not are though that they were all that would be untrue. But it goes to show all people won't follow another law because they don't follow the ones that are here already.

 

[JadeBrecks]

Chicago doesn't have a berlin wall around it. Why can't someone just go outside the city to by a gun. Illinois does not have tight gun restrictions and even if it did Chicago borders the Indiana state line.

If you look at New York and LA who are more insulated in states with statewide gun control; those cities have seen a steady decline in gun violence.

It is easy to cross state lines so the Chicago argument is invalid.

But your argument is invalid. If you enter Indiana from Illinois the gun dealers make you follow Illinois laws. If it is illegal anywhere in Illinois they won't sell it to you even if you don't live in that part of Illinois. Some gun dealership won't even sell to you period if you are from out of state so they don't have to worry about differing gun laws. Also like stated above what is the difference between leaving a state and the country? The only difference will be the price of the illegal firearm because the seller had to go farther to get it.

 

[JadeBrecks]

I don't see too many people calling for a complete ban on all guns (yes some are but just about as many crazy people are the complete opposite way and think that everyone should own a gun because that would prevent this).

Than you aren't listening to the politicians that are putting forth legislation. Those who are are just going to want to pass more laws when they find out the first ones aren't working. (See previous gun laws and now they are trying to pass more because the other ones aren't being enforced or aren't working)

There is many more that I can link but I hate the self-defense arguement. Sigh.

If you don't want to listen to the self defense argument that we need firearms start reading these.
The Armed Citizen

 

[JadeBrecks]

NRA won't let them. Nice try.

Not only has the NRA got congress to pass laws to basically kill research on gun violence (because it looks really bad) and this

"It’s not just the CDC that’s been hamstrung by the gun lobby. In 2003, Rep. Todd Tiahrt, a Kansas Republican, inserted an amendment into the law funding the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, restricting its ability to release firearms trace data. The data had previously been used to develop policies to combat illegal gun trafficking. In their letter to Biden, the researchers urged that those restrictions be lifted."

Blackout: How the NRA suppressed gun violence research — MSNBC

As I have already posted this

MMS: Error
and this
Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. [N Engl J Med. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI

The NRA killed all government sponsored research that might be helpful after these studies came out.

One last thing. They aren't a "Gun Lobby". They aren't some group that pushes things nobody wants. They are a representative for 4 Million gun owners in the United States. They are not some gun lobby that has no backing. Why are they so powerful? Because they are representing 4 Million people. You can try to make them out to be the worst group ever but you need to start referring to the 4 Million people backing them....LIKE ME!

The reason why the NRA fights everything every time is simple. It is the same reason ABATE (American Bikers Aimed Towards Education) fights helmet laws. (They are one of the leading advocators for wearing a helmet while riding) Why do They fight these laws that you would think they support? Because once they stop fight on a subject like helmet laws or "assault weapons" then they will get attacked again. Then they will have to defend motor sizes and pistols or shotguns. You give the government an inch it will take a mile. That is why the NRA and ABATE fight this stuff tooth and nail. The longer we fight stuff the longer it takes to get to the last thing we have and eventually complete disarmament (or the outlaw of motorcycles).

 

[BobD]

Name a mass shooting and I will tell you what laws they broke. Also are you willing to support banning firearms without knowing this fact yourself?

One last thing. Something to think about for everyone who is for some gun control but aren't for complete disarmament of people, look at who you are hitching your wagon to. Are you hitching it to people like dianne feinstein? Are you going to support people who want to ban all guns when they are going after what you think is ok and turn around and fight them later? These people will not stop till they get what they want and a lot of them what all guns to be illegal. You may think this fight doesn't affect you but it does. When they are done picking on the "assault rifle" crowd they will set their sights on the pistol and shotgun crowd. Just some food for thought.

In the same light you're hitching your wagon to many groups(gangs,cults and klans) that want unrestricted guns everywhere?

"According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%"

So besides stricter background checks and controls, you're saying we need to find a way to make sure once someone has obtained a gun legally, we can make sure he keeps it in his possession?

 

[woolybug25]

One last thing. They aren't a "Gun Lobby". They aren't some group that pushes things nobody wants. They are a representative for 4 Million gun owners in the United States. They are not some gun lobby that has no backing. Why are they so powerful? Because they are representing 4 Million people. You can try to make them out to be the worst group ever but you need to start referring to the 4 Million people backing them....LIKE ME!

The reason why the NRA fights everything every time is simple. It is the same reason ABATE (American Bikers Aimed Towards Education) fights helmet laws. (They are one of the leading advocators for wearing a helmet while riding) Why do They fight these laws that you would think they support? Because once they stop fight on a subject like helmet laws or "assault weapons" then they will get attacked again. Then they will have to defend motor sizes and pistols or shotguns. You give the government an inch it will take a mile. That is why the NRA and ABATE fight this stuff tooth and nail. The longer we fight stuff the longer it takes to get to the last thing we have and eventually complete disarmament (or the outlaw of motorcycles).

What? They are the epitome of a gun lobby. They are registered as a lobbyist group, for crying out loud.

The reality is that the NRA's mission is to kill any form of gun regulation at all costs. They have shown no interest in researching what types of regulations can help curb gun voilence or even hold discussions on things like mental illness. Their main goal is to oppose any and all gun regulations at all cost. That's it.

 

[palinurus]

What? They are the epitome of a gun lobby. They are registered as a lobbyist group, for crying out loud.

The reality is that the NRA's mission is to kill any form of gun regulation at all costs. They have shown no interest in researching what types of regulations can help curb gun voilence or even hold discussions on things like mental illness. Their main goal is to oppose any and all gun regulations at all cost. That's it.

You are mistaken. While you are right they oppose a lot of regulations and laws that keep guns out of private hands and laws that give government information on who has guns, they do not oppose any and all regulations.

In 2009, they supported mental health laws after Va Tech. NRA Backs Anti-gun Group On Capitol Hill - CBS News

They also support mental health research, just not the lobbying some liberal groups wanted to do re the research.
Lawmakers should focus on mentally ill, says NRA head | Minnesota Public Radio News

The NRA also supports federal and state laws prohibiting the possession by convicted violent criminals and juveniles, and it supported instant checks on retail purchases and for concealed carry.

 

[phgreek]

NRA won't let them. Nice try.

Not only has the NRA got congress to pass laws to basically kill research on gun violence (because it looks really bad) and this

"It’s not just the CDC that’s been hamstrung by the gun lobby. In 2003, Rep. Todd Tiahrt, a Kansas Republican, inserted an amendment into the law funding the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, restricting its ability to release firearms trace data. The data had previously been used to develop policies to combat illegal gun trafficking. In their letter to Biden, the researchers urged that those restrictions be lifted."

Blackout: How the NRA suppressed gun violence research — MSNBC

As I have already posted this

MMS: Error
and this
Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership. [N Engl J Med. 1992] - PubMed - NCBI

The NRA killed all government sponsored research that might be helpful after these studies came out.

I think there is some truth to this...actually a good bit. However, I love the NRA characterizations in a vacuum...as if government data and studies are apolitical...thats just NEVER the case. What gets "sent up" is "clipped" much like the video CNN and other outlets were pimping of the sandy hook parent testifying yesterday...I've even heard of folks trying to take data and back into a conclusion...either way...the conclusions drawn from these studies are often misguided AT BEST. Rarely, are the raw study results available in an unadulterated form, much less the method and constraints under which the data was gathered. It almost always comes down to the want of politicians...so, forgive me if I'm hesitant to annoint these "government" data and studies as strictly decision support in natuure, when the reality is they are policy support in nature...

I'm not a proponent of hiding data, but the truth is, if you can't count on honest data, and you know the press is ready to run w/ anything...I give you Manti and yesterday's manipulation of the Sandy Hook Parent's testimony as support...I guess you do that.

This boils down to trust...I believe in the common decency of men separated from their fringe loyalties to do good work. In order for that to happen, the NRA needs to stop supressing data, but the government also needs NRA folks deeply involved in the establishment of methods that produce data that is truly decision support data.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

According to Homeland Security, if there is a mass shooting occuring, you should confront the shooter with scissors.

Homeland Security has advice for confronting mass murders: scissors - NYPOST.com

 

[DSully1995]

They protect the right of gun owners through lobbying... I think some of you just dont like the word lobby

 

[irishpat183]

Chicago doesn't have a berlin wall around it. Why can't someone just go outside the city to by a gun. Illinois does not have tight gun restrictions and even if it did Chicago borders the Indiana state line.

If you look at New York and LA who are more insulated in states with statewide gun control; those cities have seen a steady decline in gun violence.

It is easy to cross state lines so the Chicago argument is invalid.

Replace "Chicago" with "The United States" and replace "outside city" with "outside the country"


Pair this with the admins immigration policy (or Vote whoring) and refusual to do anything about the boarders, and that's where guns will be obtained.

 

[irishpat183]

They protect the right of gun owners through lobbying... I think some of you just dont like the word lobby

I have no problem with the word lobby....And the left has PLENTY of lobby of it's own.


Southern CA farmers thank the lobbies of the left for destroying their industry.

 

[brandonnash]

Exactly. I read that water from a source in California was cut off from farmers to "try" and save an endangered minnow. Can't remember the details completely.

 

[irishpat183]

Exactly. I read that water from a source in California was cut off from farmers to "try" and save an endangered minnow. Can't remember the details completely.

The "Delta Smelt"......Ridiculous

 

[JadeBrecks]

In the same light you're hitching your wagon to many groups(gangs,cults and klans) that want unrestricted guns everywhere?

Far from it. I am saying enforce the laws you already have. I'm saying that more gun laws won't affect gangs, cults, and klans. All they will do is limit your average law abiding citizen.

So besides stricter background checks and controls, you're saying we need to find a way to make sure once someone has obtained a gun legally, we can make sure he keeps it in his possession?

No that is not what I was saying in that post. I was informing the person above that wanted information on what amount of guns used in crimes were legal or illegal. If they are willing to break the laws on the books now to commit their crimes they will ignore any new law you put on the books. Once again only affecting the average law abiding citizen not your illegal shooters you are attempting to stop.

 

[JadeBrecks]

What? They are the epitome of a gun lobby. They are registered as a lobbyist group, for crying out loud.

The reality is that the NRA's mission is to kill any form of gun regulation at all costs. They have shown no interest in researching what types of regulations can help curb gun voilence or even hold discussions on things like mental illness. Their main goal is to oppose any and all gun regulations at all cost. That's it.

I know they are registered as a lobby. What I am trying to get at is everyone wants to demonize the NRA like it is there for itself because of itself when in fact it is a representative for its registered members. The NRA is roughly 4 million people spread out over the US. And when you say the NRA is in the minority because you have more lobby groups against it (but far fewer in members) you can't say it is majority of what people want. They are trying to minimize the NRA to one person when it isn't.

If you want to look at people who don't want to research gun violence or how to curb it look at the politicians putting forth this legislation. Are any of them out there screaming and demanding for better screenings and help for the mentally damaged mass shooters? Are they even considering doing away with "gun free" zones or allowing teachers to carry? No! They are demanding we do away with firearms that are a very very small percentage of these crimes. They aren't interested with anything else and tell you they will deal with that next. Really? Or will you follow your normal trend of trying to implement more laws to fix your laws that don't work that are there to fix laws that didn't work before?

 

[GoIrish41]

I know they are registered as a lobby. What I am trying to get at is everyone wants to demonize the NRA like it is there for itself because of itself when in fact it is a representative for its registered members. The NRA is roughly 4 million people spread out over the US. And when you say the NRA is in the minority because you have more lobby groups against it (but far fewer in members) you can't say it is majority of what people want. They are trying to minimize the NRA to one person when it isn't.

If you want to look at people who don't want to research gun violence or how to curb it look at the politicians putting forth this legislation. Are any of them out there screaming and demanding for better screenings and help for the mentally damaged mass shooters? Are they even considering doing away with "gun free" zones or allowing teachers to carry? No! They are demanding we do away with firearms that are a very very small percentage of these crimes. They aren't interested with anything else and tell you they will deal with that next. Really? Or will you follow your normal trend of trying to implement more laws to fix your laws that don't work that are there to fix laws that didn't work before?

is it though? I've seen a lot of polling of people identifying themselves as NRA members and more broadly of people who are gun owners suggesting that they are overwhelmingly for universal background checks. Still the NRA testified before Congress that it was not for this, stating that they will not work. That isn't representing its membership, it is stating a position that is the opposite of what the members are for.

 

[JadeBrecks]

is it though? I've seen a lot of polling of people identifying themselves as NRA members and more broadly of people who are gun owners suggesting that they are overwhelmingly for universal background checks. Still the NRA testified before Congress that it was not for this, stating that they will not work. That isn't representing its membership, it is stating a position that is the opposite of what the members are for.

See that word right there. "Polling" You ever been part of those polls? I had one call me just a few days ago. They word the questions so you all but have to answer the way they want to. When you try to ask for more info or ask questions you are told to say agree or disagree. That is assuming they aren't tampering with the numbers or polling places that will give them their answers.

It is true that background checks aren't going to solve this problem. You think someone selling a gun to a felon or a mentally unstable person is going to perform a background check on the person before they sell it because the law says so? You can't stop criminals from doing illegal things with laws. It is impossible. If they weren't breaking laws than they wouldn't be criminals.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

Could a weapons ban supporter please explain the difference between these two rifles for me?

 

[Downinthebend]

Could a weapons ban supporter please explain the difference between these two rifles for me?

One got da scarry hilt thing on it!

 

[brandonnash]

The pointy thing on top of the barrel is where the grenade launcher goes! Destroy it!!

 

[JadeBrecks]

The pointy thing on top of the barrel is where the grenade launcher goes! Destroy it!!

Seriously you are way off. It is a "rocket launcher" that attaches there.

 

[chicago51]

Lou said that gun control would only hurt people with legal guns (i hear this argument alot) since the criminals "will get theirs anyway". I want to know if theres a way to see what percentage of murders or homicides are done with legally obtained weapons.
(obviously wont have full data but should be pretty close to real percentage)

Exactly the Newtown shooting was done with legally purchased firearms. If there was an assault weapons ban we would not have had 20 dead kids. Some of the kids had over 10 bullets in them.

I have seen a lot of real evidence and examples that guns are dangerous.

I have seen a lot of real evidence and examples that guns are great tools for self defense.

What I have not seen on this thread are any examples of assault weapons being used in successful self defense.

You have to do a cost benefit analysis when making a decision. With guns as a whole the evidence is unclear. When it comes to AR 15s and other military style weapons the evidence is pretty clear they have done more evil than good.