Opinions/Discussions on Guns

Irish Houstonian

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The free speech limits have to do with speech that might incite or lead to harm against another person. I truly don't know where I stand on gun rights and various bans. But I think this discussion is similar.

You do realize there are no "free speech limits" in the U.S., right? There are no federal or state content-based prohibitions on speech. There's tort law, of course. And there are time, place, manner restrictions, and permits, to be sure, like strip clubs. But nowhere in the United States can anything you say be treated as illegal solely because of the content of what you've said.

Can we honestly say that we treat the 2nd Amendment with this much reverance?
 

irishpat183

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You do realize there are no "free speech limits" in the U.S., right? There are no federal or state content-based prohibitions on speech. There's tort law, of course. And there are time, place, manner restrictions, and permits, to be sure, like strip clubs. But nowhere in the United States can anything you say be treated as illegal solely because of the content of what you've said.

Can we honestly say that we treat the 2nd Amendment with this much reverance?

Yes! Being offensive is not illegal.
 

woolybug25

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Yes! Being offensive is not illegal.

Good thing for you.

Dude, people on your side of the fence have been making good points and intelligent debate in this thread, but then you come in and make them look bad. I'm not sure that you have made one single rational point in this thread yet.

You're still cool with me, but damn... I'm surprised someone trying to argue from your side hasn't told you to shut it yet.
 

phork

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Even ideally if one is able to ban/destroy all the guns, those with bad intentions will just move to different tools.

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph
bolding is mine
"A breakdown of the statistics, which were compiled into league tables by the Conservatives, revealed that violent crime in the UK had increased from 652,974 offences in 1998 to more than 1.15 million crimes in 2007.
It means there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe.
Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland.
By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population."

I would rather have violent crime than dozens of people mowed down at a time. Maybe you should use real statistics like murder rates and I don't know, gun deaths?
 

pkt77242

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You do realize there are no "free speech limits" in the U.S., right? There are no federal or state content-based prohibitions on speech. There's tort law, of course. And there are time, place, manner restrictions, and permits, to be sure, like strip clubs. But nowhere in the United States can anything you say be treated as illegal solely because of the content of what you've said.

Can we honestly say that we treat the 2nd Amendment with this much reverance?

That is not true. Threats are based of the content of what you say. How about you go threaten the President or anyone else and see how that goes over.
 

DomerInHappyValley

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For those who wonder why I feel so strongly about this.
Please google Judge Kozinski's opinion from Silveira v Lockyer 328 f 3d 567 (2003).
Then Nordyke v King 319 f 3d 1185, 1197 (2003) Judge Gould.
Both opinions explain better than I ever could
Especially Judge Kozinski.
 

4irishnation

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I would rather have violent crime than dozens of people mowed down at a time. Maybe you should use real statistics like murder rates and I don't know, gun deaths?
Good for you. I'm shooting the B@STARD!!!!!!!!
 

Downinthebend

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I would rather have violent crime than dozens of people mowed down at a time. Maybe you should use real statistics like murder rates and I don't know, gun deaths?

If by "you" you mean "me", I'll say those aren't "my" statistics as I directly quoted content of the article. In case you are confused, I did not write that article.
 

IrishJayhawk

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If by "you" you mean "me", I'll say those aren't "my" statistics as I directly quoted content of the article. In case you are confused, I did not write that article.

Maybe I'm putting words into his mouth, but I think he meant more meaningful statistics. The ones he talked about show the United States in a much worse position compared to the rest of the industrialized world.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Remember yesterday when I connected Bushmaster, to Freedom, to Cerberus? In the middle of the night (1AM EST) the announcement was made that Bushmaster would be shut down.

And now with the NRA holding a DC press conference, (that is some change in the political mood to stop those guys in their tracks), that they say will show their offer to help with a long term solution to keep this from happening again. WOW. What do you think is up?
 

irishtrain

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I am makeing this thread so that the politcal talks don't take away from the deaths in the Another School Shooting thread. Please have you discussions here and lets remember them in the other thread please!!!

STATS:
Abc reports that Homicides are Higher then other developed countries. Homicides per 100,000in G-8 countries.

US: 3.2 Italy: 0.71 Canada: 0.5 UK: 0.1 Japan: 0 Germany: 0.2 France: 0.1

Gun crime statistics by US state: download the data. Visualised | World news | guardian.co.uk
Cant speak for other countries but the prisions I saw in Italy looked just the same as 1000 yr old ruins. Get my drift?
 

phgreek

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Remember yesterday when I connected Bushmaster, to Freedom, to Cerberus? In the middle of the night (1AM EST) the announcement was made that Bushmaster would be shut down.

And now with the NRA holding a DC press conference, (that is some change in the political mood to stop those guys in their tracks), that they say will show their offer to help with a long term solution to keep this from happening again. WOW. What do you think is up?

exactly what I figured would happen...people holding on too long w/o the ability to apply common sense for fear it would show vulnerability...set precedent, etc. NRA should have dealt with the capacity issue the day the freaking assault rifle ban dropped...and numerous times thereafter...to me, that issue looms large here. You can't stop people from killing, but you can maybe keep the numbers sub little big horn. I bet the assault rifle gets banned again, AAAND some other unnecessary stuff comes along for good measure...because we don't know how to focus on things that matter...we know how to "emotislate".
 

DSully1995

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That is not true. Threats are based of the content of what you say. How about you go threaten the President or anyone else and see how that goes over.

Apples and oranges? Wouldnt they treat you like a terrorist? and if thats true why do Neo-nazi groups get protection by law?
 

IrishinSyria

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In my experience gun owners who understand what a gun can do are some of the most level headed people. Because they realize the ramifications of any conflict.
It seems to be the ones who think a gun makes them tough that escalate situations.

This may be true. And if there were any way to ensure that only level headed people carried weapons, we wouldn't be having these discussions every few months. I like guns. I get to shoot cool guns in the Army. My M4 hasn't been out of arms reach at any time in over a month. But when I'm in a civilian environment, say, a movie theater, and I see a person with a weapon I immediately view them as a threat. I don't know if that person is trained or untrained, cool-headed or angry, or good or bad. What I do know is that they have a tool designed for making people dead with them and thus, they are dangerous.
 

Irish#1

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You keep using assault rifle. This was not an assault rifle as it did not have selective firing. A class II license already requires a automatic not semi auto to be locked up it also as written in to it that the ATF can come in at any time to inspect to make sure the gun is secured.
We don't know if the guns were in a gun safe just like we don't know if the kid even knew the combination or where the key was for the safe.

Wooly I respect you. Your a smart guy. But I have been a firm advocate of gun rights for 7 years. Including protesting speaking at events as well as with my states representatives. Not much in the federal gun code nor the PA code I do not know. How about. We agree to disagree and go back to talkin ND.

I've supported the right to bear arms for longer than I can remember, but no one can now convince me we don't have to make some changes. I'm not talking about making it illegal to own a gun, but restricting the type of weapons one can own and instituting stronger laws and penalties for ignoring them.
1. I've yet to see a good argument for owning an automatic or semi automatic assault type rifle.
2. Yes other weapons like knives and axes can be used, but you can't kill that many people that quickly with a knife or axe.
3. True the vast majority of gun owners are responsible, but it's that minority group of gun owners that need to be addressed.
4. It's far too easy to buy any type of gun today. Hundreds of thousands are sold or change hands illegally every year. Why is that?
5. As Wooly has said, if you are going to keep a gun in the house, it should be unloaded, trigger locked and secured in a safe until you want to use it. Burglars can be be detered by installing quality locks, posting a security sign and spot lights on motion sensors.
6. The problem with the NRA is their position of fear. They have always felt that if they give an inch, they will eventually give up a mile. I think most reasonable people who don't care to own a gun don't have a problem with gun ownership. I think they have a problem with the proliferation of different types of weapons and the easy access.
7. The second admendment was written during a time when it was necessary for almost every citizen to own a gun. Times have changed.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I'm not catching what you're throwing down here. Free Speech is most definitely as important as the Right To Bare Arms. Furthermore, there currently is far more restrictions on free speech in this country then there is restrictions to the right to bare arms?

What is the right to naked guns?
 
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Bogtrotter07

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exactly what I figured would happen...people holding on too long w/o the ability to apply common sense for fear it would show vulnerability...set precedent, etc. NRA should have dealt with the capacity issue the day the freaking assault rifle ban dropped...and numerous times thereafter...to me, that issue looms large here. You can't stop people from killing, but you can maybe keep the numbers sub little big horn. I bet the assault rifle gets banned again, AAAND some other unnecessary stuff comes along for good measure...because we don't know how to focus on things that matter...we know how to "emotislate".

Every week I volunteer at my kids elementary school. This week I can no longer walk into the school. I must ring a bell, wait for it to be answered, and submit to a strip search in front of the whole faculty, each holding a snarling attack dog. Did I tell you about the barbed wire?

The first thing that was removed was my kids right to a childhood. So if I appear to be less than cordial to a bunch of buffoons that exclusively want to use statistics to make their political cases, instead of use their heads, pardon me in advance.

The big money men will just move the funds out of guns into something else, hang gliders, the newest designer drug, who knows?
 

BobD

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tumblr_mf1r7zoWjg1qiwfcvo1_500.jpg
 

chicago51

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Does that blow your mind? That just happened!

Yes of all the industrialized nations we are the worse. As someone who loves this country and once good things for it, I believe we can be better than this.

BobD do have a link to the original source of the image. I would like to share it with some folks.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I still cannot accept the fact that guns are the problem here. Murders, criminals, killers are the problem here. The tools they choose to carry out their evil differ, but their goals remain the same.

Hypathetical: I pray to God this doesn't happen again, but what if another whack job goes Timothy McVeigh on a building, mall, school, stadium, etc?

Not one bullet fired. Just a truck with fertilizer and fuel. There is nothing politicians can legislate that would stop it.

Same thing with VA Tech: I pray it doesn't happen again, but it'd be verrrrry easy for a nut to walk into a crowded lecture hall of 500 and throw pipe bombs. Not one bullet needed.
 

BleedBlueGold

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Just wanted to contribute my opinion to the thread with this post. FWIW

1) I personally believe every US citizen has the right to own a gun. Whether that gun is for hunting, firing range use, or protection does not matter to me. With that said...

2) To own a weapon, I feel various laws should be strictly enforced (Some may already be in action. I'm not 100% familiar with the gun laws in their entirety).
a) Before buying a firearm, one should pass several tests including, but not limited to a written exam, a field exam, a drug test, a mental health test, a background check, and take a course in gun safety. (I'm still torn on this, but I'm leaning towards the idea that if you have a spouse or kid with a mental disorder, etc. then you should not be allowed to own a firearm.)
b) A person should be limited to the type of gun owned (I feel any weapon capable of a mass attack should be banned). The amount of ammunition should be strictly regulated. Any firearm should be required to be locked in a case, separate from the ammo and suspect to yearly, unannounced checks by the authorities.
c) I really like the idea of mandatory police officers at every school (or any public venue where masses of people may gather) and security check-ins, along with metal detectors at each entrance. Some of you may feel this to be overkill, but my thought process is that a mass killing has potential to happen anywhere and there should be certain measures taken to ensure the public's safety. Yes, it'll cost money, but how much would you pay to help ensure your family's safety?

3) I have a huge problem with our culture and the amount violence portrayed on tv, movies, video games, etc. That needs to be regulated better, imo. Sure this isn't the main problem, but if it helps, so be it.

4) I also have an issue with the way the media "celebrates" these killers giving the next person the chance to out-kill the previous. Someone already mentioned it, and I agree, that there should be a law restricting the media from giving details of the killers. A quick example: The death place of Hitler's bunker in Berlin is now a parking lot. People know where it is, but it's not a memorial or remembered in any fashion. They don't use it as a tourist trap or a way to raise money. In our guide's words, "It's simply a place where dogs come to **** and ****." America needs to remember/mourn the lives lost, but should "**** and ****" on the killers who took those lives, not plaster their names and pictures all over every tv and computer screen.

5) Lastly, I feel there needs to be better support for our mental health fields. Whether that be better insurance, more programs, or whatever..something needs to change to help these families who struggle with any disorder.

I have more feelings and thoughts on this subject, but I'll leave it at this for now. It's clear there isn't one specific issue that needs to be addressed. With that said, please don't dissect my every point. While I'm aware my ideas have holes and most certainly will never be enforced, I'm also not looking for a debate. I just wanted to express my gut reaction to these tragic events. My wife is an elementary school teacher, and after listening to her countless stories of parent-child relationships, perhaps the best "regulation" this country should enforce is for parents to spend more time loving and teaching their children, caring for others, and taking greater responsibility for themselves and their family.
 
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BobD

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Does that blow your mind? That just happened!

Yes of all the industrialized nations we are the worse. As someone who loves this country and once good things for it, I believe we can be better than this.

BobD do have a link to the original source of the image. I would like to share it with some folks.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/ed621be4b9046728c1c9f2172bd6177b/tumblr_mf1r7zoWjg1qiwfcvo1_500.jpg
Sorry I only have the photo link and the .com address at the bottom of the poster.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I still cannot accept the fact that guns are the problem here. Murders, criminals, killers are the problem here. The tools they choose to carry out their evil differ, but their goals remain the same.

Hypathetical: I pray to God this doesn't happen again, but what if another whack job goes Timothy McVeigh on a building, mall, school, stadium, etc?

Not one bullet fired. Just a truck with fertilizer and fuel. There is nothing politicians can legislate that would stop it.

Same thing with VA Tech: I pray it doesn't happen again, but it'd be verrrrry easy for a nut to walk into a crowded lecture hall of 500 and throw pipe bombs. Not one bullet needed.

Actually, that is not true. I guy I met from nearby in Michigan developed an inexpensive method of stabilizing nitrates rendering them inert and totally safe. Manufacturers refused to voluntarily reformulate. Congress refused to act.

Congress has blocked all use of statistics by ATF and the CDC for gun violence research, and an NRA owned congressman was successful in adding a rider to a spending bill making it illegal for the ATF to disclose gun violence statistics as they had for over thirty years, (prior to 2003). Anybody want to legislate the warning labels off cigarettes while we are at it?
 
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irishpat183

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Does that blow your mind? That just happened!

Yes of all the industrialized nations we are the worse. As someone who loves this country and once good things for it, I believe we can be better than this.

BobD do have a link to the original source of the image. I would like to share it with some folks.

How many of those are gang related/robberies/crime as opposed to just "average joe" walking around gunning down people in a mall or school like you guys make it seem??


Again, it's the PEOPLE and mentality of this country. Not the guns.
 
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