Pat Forde voted Manziel and explains why

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Grahambo

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And my vote for the Heisman Trophy goes to … Johnny Manziel, and here's why - Yahoo! Sports

Here's my biggest problem with his explanation:

Excusing Manziel for playing poorly against UF because it was his first game and because everybody else played poorly against UF and LSU. So, to me, he essentially eliminated his two biggest games without a real reason why.

Oh, and this gem:"Bringing up those stats against elite defenses without crediting Manziel for what he did against Alabama – as some people have – is intellectually dishonest."
 
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rtrn2glory

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dudes reasoning is hardly a good explanation to me...with that reasoning he should have probably voted for the dude from northern illinois or braxton miller...yea i'm prolly biased
 
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Grahambo

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dudes reasoning is hardly a good explanation to me...with that reasoning he should have probably voted for the dude from northern illinois or braxton miller...yea i'm prolly biased

I like Forde and he is very fair so I'm trying to understand his logic. To me, I took it as he gave the vote because of his Alabama game and stat padding against really inferior competition and threw out the two biggest games on his schedule because UF was his first game and everybody else struggled against the UF and LSU defense. All the while penalizing Te'o because he has NFL talent in front of him.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
 

rtrn2glory

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i just think that everybody read waaaaay too much into manziel having one great game...although it was against one of the two best teams in the country.

like i said in another thread...who knew who he was before that game?

manti's been consistent ALL year.

that's my argument.
 

JoeyGetherall

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I just keep referring to what I hear from the horse's mouth: "The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work."

To me Manti fits this definition better than any other nominee.
 

Whiskeyjack

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To his credit, Forde at least tried to compare Te'o and Manziel objectively, which is more than most Heisman voters have probably done. But I agree that his reasoning is flawed.

As I mentioned in a couple other threads last night, Te'o's defense allows 10% fewer offensive plays per game than the national average. Sumlin's offense runs 17% more plays per game than average. Once you account for that systemic bias, Te'o's stats are much more competitive with Manziel's.
 
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ohara831

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I cannot in good faith gripe about someone who voted for Te'o. And I cannot in good faith gripe about them voting for Manziel. Both of them are worthy options. If a voter is being intellectually honest with himself, then that is all I ask of him.
 

zbikowski88

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Kyle O'Connor @oconnorkyle 47s
No Manziel on ballot.. "I don't consider players with pending criminal charges, and Manziel still faces three counts." - SI's Thayer Evans
 

Whiskeyjack

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Throughout the season Te'o matched up with guys on Heisman watch or mentioned as candidates at some point of the season and delivered every game: USC's Lee, Michigan's Robinson, MSU's Bell, Oklahoma's Jones, Stanford's Taylor. In fact he busted the legitimate Heisman chances of each of those guys after each game: disrupted 4 Robinson passes. Held Bell to 77 yards. Kept Taylor out of the end zone. Delivered Jones the only game this season without a TD pass/negative TD-INT. Held Lee to 75 yards, 5 receptions and no TD. For guys like Jones and Lee a BIG game versus Te'o would have literally meant they go to NY and maybe pick up the award. Te'o busted 5 Heisman brackets through his play in big games.

Reps. That's a great angle; if only there was still time for it to impact the voting.
 

rtrn2glory

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more i see ballots talked about online the less i feel good about manti's chances...seems to be more ppl voting for manziel and you know he owned texas and the southwest
 

irishmarine

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If manti is being penalize for the nfl talent on front of him why isn't manziel being penalized for the nfl caliber lineman in front of him? Just curious
 
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Grahambo

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No he's an idiot. He makes up a term "intellectual dishonesty" (no such thing intellectual honesty however is a thing) and then does mental gymnastics to justify the fact that he was going to vote for a QB (any QB on the Heisman carousel) rather than Te'o no matter what.

He'd be making the exact same argument for (in order) Matt Barkley, Geno Smith, Collin Klein or whichever other QB happened to end the year with the hot hand. The man talks about "intellectual dishonesty" when he retrofits his own logic to justify his own biases.

As for Te'o it's very very easy to argue how valuable Te'o is. Not only did Te'o put away two games with interceptions but made plays in 2 other games to secure ND's lead (solo stop on Heisman candidate Stepfan Taylor on a 6-inch-and-goal on 3rd down in overtime and disrupting a TD from Heisman candidate Marquis Lee after he had beat his own man in the endzone in USC's last drive).

By the numbers Te'o had a immediate impact in winning or putting away 4 games. Overall Te'o has created 11 of 23 turnovers for an Irish defense that is mostly responsible for every win this season. Looking at individual turnovers Te'o has 9 which is tied for most in the nation this year (including PASS defense- 7 interception and RUN defense- 2 fumble recoveries). The guy not only anchors and directs a defense that carried Offense and Special Teams all year for an undefeated team but is personally all over the field in all aspect of the game making plays which can be directly attributable simply by looking at his turnover numbers and team scoring and yardage numbers.

Lots of guys put up big numbers against bad teams and in losses but in terms of tackles against top 25 teams Te'o is in the top 5 in the nation. That's in a year when his tackling numbers are down 30-40 percent and this is something Pat can't even deny: because his contribution to the defense in other areas is so dominating that he's facing 3-and-outs offenses game in and game out. In truth his down numbers speak to the fact that Te'o is taking away aspects of the game from other teams. They don't throw near him and they run away from him. It's actually a credit to him that they do that but guys like Forde look at the big numbers and something that actually points to Te'o one of the most impactful defensive players ever turns into something that is a negative on the score sheet.

Pat talks about "intellectual dishonesty" but then tries to say that Te'o's fewer tackles are an indication that he's being carried by a dominating Line... I guess that would be intellectually honest if it wasn't the fact that Te'o is leading the team in tackles and the next guy has more than 40 tackles fewer than Te'o and is a safety. It's not the line taking tackles/covering for Te'o it's Te'o's effort leading the defensive is destroying the offenses of opposing teams. So much for intellectual honesty

Throughout the season Te'o matched up with guys on Heisman watch or mentioned as candidates at some point of the season and delivered every game: USC's Lee, Michigan's Robinson, MSU's Bell, Oklahoma's Jones, Stanford's Taylor. In fact he busted the legitimate Heisman chances of each of those guys after each game: disrupted 4 Robinson passes. Held Bell to 77 yards. Kept Taylor out of the end zone. Delivered Jones the only game this season without a TD pass/negative TD-INT. Held Lee to 75 yards, 5 receptions and no TD. For guys like Jones and Lee a BIG game versus Te'o would have literally meant they go to NY and maybe pick up the award. Te'o busted 5 Heisman brackets through his play in big games.

It's laughable to be conflicted whether Te'o is more valuable to his team when ND is honestly a team that would have been 7-5 or 8-4 without Te'o. If you want to try to talk about Manziel's contribution after 1 good game, 2 blown competitive games and beating up on weaker opposition the rest of the year... then to be intellectually honest you'd have to talk about the kid from OSU, the kid who busted Oklahoma's BCS bracket or any of a dozen other kids who were major contributors on lesser teams instead of the kid who just as much if not more to carry his team to the BCS title game.

8ZgxM.gif
 

phgreek

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...there is a reason the trophy depicts a guy holding a football and not a guy collapsing the lungs of a guy holding a football

This year proves the Heisman trophy will not be given to a strict defender.


You got SI totally ignoring the integrity part of the award, and leaning out there to give it to a freshman QB who has some legal issues in addition to a body of work that generated personal stats but not key Ws for his team...

...of course on performance the kid was as good as any freshman QB, but as I said before he laid two eggs and got two Ws that simply cannot count for anything...and his signature win was against a flat Bama team...fun to watch, but the residue of true leadership...winning...he isn't even the 3rd best candidate.
 

phork

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...there is a reason the trophy depicts a guy holding a football and not a guy collapsing the lungs of a guy holding a football

This year proves the Heisman trophy will not be given to a strict defender.


You got SI totally ignoring the integrity part of the award, and leaning out there to give it to a freshman QB who has some legal issues in addition to a body of work that generated personal stats but not key Ws for his team...

...of course on performance the kid was as good as any freshman QB, but as I said before he laid two eggs and got two Ws that simply cannot count for anything...and his signature win was against a flat Bama team...fun to watch, but the residue of true leadership...winning...he isn't even the 3rd best candidate.

Haha never even occurred to be about the statue. Good point.
 

Black Irish

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...there is a reason the trophy depicts a guy holding a football and not a guy collapsing the lungs of a guy holding a football

Manti held the football plenty this season, 9 times if I remember correctly.
 

kmoose

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The failure this year is that those writers that support Manti have failed to place the emphasis on the integrity part of the Heisman Mission Statement. Instead, they have allowed the debate to still center around who is the best player. It's almost impossible to compare the two, in terms of who is the better player, and come to a certain conclusion.

By contrast, Coach Kelly (who has done a very good job of not appearing to be over-campaigning for his guy) has constantly made the statement that Manti exemplifies everything that the award reportedly stands for.
 

Butchie

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F@C/< this D!C/<. This might be the stupidest article I have ever read. I am being so serious. Thanks to the bold Irishman who put the literal meaning from the Heisman trust up there. After the National Championship game I want some of the sweet Texas A & M A$$. Please God Please let us play them so we can show the nation how overrated Johnny F@gb@ll is. Once we expose Bama's Def. on Jan 7. Then and only then will they understand the ERR of their ways.
 

BGIF

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...there is a reason the trophy depicts a guy holding a football and not a guy collapsing the lungs of a guy holding a football

This year proves the Heisman trophy will not be given to a strict defender. ...


The reason the guy is holding a football is to identify the sport visually. It's not a basketball, baseball, or track trophy which were the principal OTHER sports when the Heisman was first awarded in 1935. The guy is also holding a football because the model used for the sculpture, Ed Smith, was a running back. The straight arm was one of several poses considered.

A number of defenders have won the trophy as the trophy was conceived during the days of Ironman Football so they also played offense, some also kicked and returned kicks as there weren't any Special Teams. Lujack, Hart, Lattner, and Hornung were outstanding on either side of the ball.

In platoon football, a pure defender probably never will win but not because of the Heisman rules because of the voters.
 

phgreek

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The reason the guy is holding a football is to identify the sport visually. It's not a basketball, baseball, or track trophy which were the principal OTHER sports when the Heisman was first awarded in 1935. The guy is also holding a football because the model used for the sculpture, Ed Smith, was a running back. The straight arm was one of several poses considered.

A number of defenders have won the trophy as the trophy was conceived during the days of Ironman Football so they also played offense, some also kicked and returned kicks as there weren't any Special Teams. Lujack, Hart, Lattner, and Hornung were outstanding on either side of the ball.

In platoon football, a pure defender probably never will win but not because of the Heisman rules because of the voters.

...you know I was just being a wisea$$ right...??? was kinda mocking some of the justifications being given...

Although I always appreciate the history...:)
 

BGIF

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...you know I was just being a wisea$$ right...??? was kinda mocking some of the justifications being given...

Although I always appreciate the history...:)


You a wisea$$?

Never entered my mind.


BTW, I always thought the straight arm to the rear pose was wimpy. I can hear his coach bellowing, "STOP POSING FOR A @#$%^& PICTURE AND RUN!
 

ulukinatme

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Pat Forde gets a pass imo. He's been one of the few writers that didn't try to cash in on attention by writing ND hate pieces. He took it to Rick Reilly after his piece at the beginning of the year, and another later on I think. I thought Pat was an ND hater in previous years, but he called it pretty straight in 2012. Yeah, Te'o had an opportunity to win the Heisman, but lets be honest...it's still an offensive award and more so an offensive award for the flashiest player in November. It doesn't change the fact that Te'o won a bunch of awards that no one expected him to win, and will go down as the most decorated player in one season. If everything goes well, he'll have the crystal ball too. So...Heisman Trophy is really not worth the bronze it's made out of, I say forget about it.
 

phgreek

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You a wisea$$?

Never entered my mind.


BTW, I always thought the straight arm to the rear pose was wimpy. I can hear his coach bellowing, "STOP POSING FOR A @#$%^& PICTURE AND RUN!

...yea, my wisea$$edness can be detrimental...and yes I know what that means.

the pose...as you allude, thats someone that just got caught from behind...and where I'm from, that ain't nothin to be celebratin' bout.
 
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