Who is Likely Next (2013)

[koonja]

Hey, the thing about Danny and Carlo. It is not about individual talent or afterglow. It is about morale. You split 'em now and how do you tell them one stays and one goes? Remember the chances of Kelly voiding the middle of all starting experince is, um, zero. So, where do you draw the line and propperly illustrate you value and respet for those who have played their *** off for you?

Caveat: I remember the arguements from last year when it was leaked early; Kelly kept Goody.

Should we bring back Jake Golic, too? I mean, we wouldn't want a split between him and Nick Martin (2 O-lineman). Then we could turn down Greg Bryant because we're full in the name of morale.

If you want to be in the BCS title game hunt over and over, you don't turn down elite talent for a back up/solid starter-at-best 5th year player.

 

[Emcee77]

Should we bring back Tyler Stockton, too? Watching Trick Shot Monday, it's easy to see what a social butterfuly he is among this team. Then we could turn down Greg Bryant because we're full in the name of morale.

Huge difference between Stockton and Calabrese ... Stockton never saw any meaningful playing time. Do the guys like him? I'm sure they do. Do they feel like they went to war with him? Maybe not.

EDIT: I see the post I quoted has been edited, but same deal with Jake Golic.

 

[koonja]

Huge difference between Stockton and Calabrese ... Stockton never saw any meaningful playing time. Do the guys like him? I'm sure they do. Do they feel like they went to war with him? Maybe not.

EDIT: I see the post I quoted has been edited, but same deal with Jake Golic.

Lol, you caught me before I could switch players. You guys are over valuing Calabrese, imo. I honestly believe Anzalone could be as good as Calabrese is next year. Calabrese will never be elite. He's a senior and he's a backup as is. How much impact is he really going to make in one year, as opposed to 4 with Trey Johnson or LJ Moore, or someone with that type of talent.

Edit: Damn it, I said I wouldn't get into this debate. I'm out, just my opinion.

 

[Emcee77]

Blue and Gold News @BGInews 2m
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Well Hello Altee!

I figured it was Altee Tenpenney too, and I was totally confused, since we already seem to be working hard on Bryant, but it's actually Bo Scarbrough, 2014 RB stud.

 

[koonja]

I figured it was Altee Tenpenney too, and I was totally confused, since we already seem to be working hard on Bryant, but it's actually Bo Scarbrough, 2014 RB stud.

Bo's physicality might be even more impressive than Greg Bryant's. No way this kid can be a junior. Google this guy, he's a monster.

Edit: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=ICK1UMi-K6nWygG36oH4Bg

 

[NewBrunswickIrish]

Yep, excellent and oft-overlooked point. Carlo and Fox are both valuable contributors and core members of the team. How would the other players (and even coaches) react to callously throwing one away in favor of a freshman who has never done anything?

I don't think either will be cut loose. If they want to come back, they get to.

Crist. Even if he didn't transfer I doubt he would have been back.

I think people are confusing being a starter with being a core member of the team. Just because they play doesn't necessarily mean they are better leaders than others who don't or are more important to the team dynamic. Newman last year and Stockton to a lesser degree seem to be a big part of the team and I guarantee just because they don't start/play it doesn't make it easier on not accepting them back. What about Anthony McDonald? The guy was in line to be a starter severely times but he kept getting hurt. I just don't see how starting or playing in Carlo's case make him more valuable to the team in terms of leadership than another guy who doesn't play as much. We don't know anything about practice or the locker room.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Should we bring back Jake Golic, too? I mean, we wouldn't want a split between him and Nick Martin (2 O-lineman). Then we could turn down Greg Bryant because we're full in the name of morale.

If you want to be in the BCS title game hunt over and over, you don't turn down elite talent for a back up/solid starter-at-best 5th year player.

Jake Golic is not an OLineman, he is a TE and Nick Martin is an underclassman, so I'm not able to follow you there. Jake has not been a regular contributor, whereas Danny and Carlo have been and continue to be. You've made your point quite clear, you want the elite HSers not the grizzled vets that aren't named Manti. Following your plan we would not have brought back Goody or Mike Golic for this year correct (and I'm sure there are others that I am neglecting to list)? How about Zach Martin next year? Chris Watt? Cierre? Wonder how you feel about those guys. You know that the best DBack (who also directs traffic back there) is leaving after this season, along with the heart and soul of the team and D along with KLM. These are 3 monster contributors (one from each level of the D) on one of the best Defensive units in the country.

As to your point about not turning down elite talent as a way to stay "relevant" or in the title hunt year after year, there is a certain Coach in South Bend that doesn't necessarily agree with you. I'll side with him, he seems to know what he's doing.

Edit, so you meant someone other than Jake. Point remains the same.

 

[koonja]

Jake Golic is not an OLineman, he is a TE and Nick Martin is an underclassman, so I'm not able to follow you there. Jake has not been a regular contributor, whereas Danny and Carlo have been and continue to be. You've made your point quite clear, you want the elite HSers not the grizzled vets that aren't named Manti. Following your plan we would not have brought back Goody or Mike Golic for this year correct (and I'm sure there are others that I am neglecting to list)? How about Zach Martin next year? Chris Watt? Cierre? Wonder how you feel about those guys. You know that the best DBack (who also directs traffic back there) is leaving after this season, along with the heart and soul of the team and D along with KLM. These are 3 monster contributors (one from each level of the D) on one of the best Defensive units in the country.

As to your point about not turning down elite talent as a way to stay "relevant" or in the title hunt year after year, there is a certain Coach in South Bend that doesn't necessarily agree with you. I'll side with him, he seems to know what he's doing.[/QUOTE]

And you base that belief on what? I've tried and failed to find the quote, but I swear on my unborn child's life, BK said something along the lines of (almost verbatim) "When determing 5th year guys, sometimes it comes down to who can help you for a year and who can help you for four."

Again, I can't find the quote, so I don't expect you to believe me. I hope he reitterates his feelings on the matter at some point after this recruiting cycle (I have a great feeling he will). I know for fact I've heard him say this. But it doesn't mean much to you I'm sure, since I cannot prove it. I will not miss the quote this time.

 

[Emcee77]

Crist. Even if he didn't transfer I doubt he would have been back.

I think people are confusing being a starter with being a core member of the team. Just because they play doesn't necessarily mean they are better leaders than others who don't or are more important to the team dynamic. Newman last year and Stockton to a lesser degree seem to be a big part of the team and I guarantee just because they don't start/play it doesn't make it easier on not accepting them back. What about Anthony McDonald? The guy was in line to be a starter severely times but he kept getting hurt. I just don't see how starting or playing in Carlo's case make him more valuable to the team in terms of leadership than another guy who doesn't play as much. We don't know anything about practice or the locker room.

Leadership is not the point though. It's about the effect on the team of cutting a guy who other returning players think of as a comrade in arms and respect as a key player. I'm not saying that Calabrese is a leader in practice or in the locker room, because I don't know about that; it's more about the bond that comes from being out on the field with a guy and motivating yourself to do your job because you know he will do his. If you have that relationship with him, you may resent the fact that he was let go for someone who has never proven anything.

All the guys you name, for one reason or another, couldn't or didn't hack it on the field. I think players understand that if you aren't producing, you aren't likely to be retained. But Calabrese and Fox both produce. Say what you want about Calabrese, he has played a lot of football and made a lot of big tackles for us. I just can't see him being cut loose.

I could be wrong ... I wish we knew whether Crist would have been offered a 5th year. Maybe he would not have been, but of course it never came to that, not even close. He knew he was going to transfer by mid-season. As it is, I believe there is just no precedent for cutting loose a major contributor to make room for a freshman.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

And you base that belief on what? I've tried and failed to find the quote, but I swear on my unborn child's life, BK said something along the lines of (almost verbatim) "When determing 5th year guys, sometimes it comes down to who can help you for a year and who can help you for four."

Again, I can't find the quote, so I don't expect you to believe me. I hope he reitterates his feelings on the matter at some point after this recruiting cycle. I will not miss the quote this time.

Based on his actions. He has brought back guys for a 5Y that he knows will continue to have a positive impact and help the team play winning football. See Mike Golic as a prime example. I will also reiterate, bringing someone back for a 5th (1 year) doesn't preclude them from bringing in a stud for 4 years, it simply delays the arrival of a stud by that 1 year. The 5th year scholarship doesn't tie the coaches hands but for 1 year.

 

[koonja]

Based on his actions. He has brought back guys for a 5Y that he knows will continue to have a positive impact and help the team play winning football. See Mike Golic as a prime example. I will also reiterate, bringing someone back for a 5th (1 year) doesn't preclude them from bringing in a stud for 4 years, it simply delays the arrival of a stud by that 1 year. The 5th year scholarship doesn't tie the coaches hands but for 1 year.

You think we get 'studs' wanting on the ship this badly every year? Give me what you're smoking, please. You strike while the iron's hot (yes, I stole this rubber stamp from the recruiting article I posted earlier, lol). I cannot wait until NSD is over he reitterates his feelings. I will find you on here, lol.

 

[PraetorianND]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

 

[yankeeND]

You struck the point that is hitting home with me the most kuehnja. This year and next year load up! Take the momentum you have right now and run with it! It's just a matter of striking while the iron is hot!

 

[NewBrunswickIrish]

Leadership is not the point though. It's about the effect on the team of cutting a guy who other returning players think of as a comrade in arms and respect as a key player. I'm not saying that Calabrese is a leader in practice or in the locker room, because I don't know about that; it's more about the bond that comes from being out on the field with a guy and motivating yourself to do your job because you know he will do his. If you have that relationship with him, you may resent the fact that he was let go for someone who has never proven anything.

All the guys you name, for one reason or another, couldn't or didn't hack it on the field. I think players understand that if you aren't producing, you aren't likely to be retained. But Calabrese and Fox both produce. Say what you want about Calabrese, he has played a lot of football and made a lot of big tackles for us. I just can't see him being cut loose.

I could be wrong ... I wish we knew whether Crist would have been offered a 5th year. Maybe he would not have been, but of course it never came to that, not even close. He knew he was going to transfer by mid-season. As it is, I believe there is just no precedent for cutting loose a major contributor to make room for a freshman.

But everyone has been at ND for four years. I doubt they really care what each has done on the field and whether that makes it hurt more when they aren't offered an extra year. These guys are all friends and just because they don't play I doubt they think of someone as less key than another if one plays but the other is a great leader who doesn't. You can't just evaluate their keyness (a word I think I just made up) by what they have done on the field, when there are 85 guys on a team being important can be more than just producing on the field. Maybe MacCarthy was brought back because he was a great leader, e doesn't produce on the field. It hard for us to quantify who is most important to the team without knowing the inside dynamics of the team. Lynch played a lot last year and people are saying that some players were not upset to see him go. I just don't see the connection between playing and making it harder on the other guys/coaches to see them go. Would it have been hard to Golic go last year for the team? He didn't play until Cave got hurt.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

You think we get 'studs' wanting on the ship this badly every year? Give me what you're smoking, please. You strike while the iron's hot (yes, I stole this rubber stamp from the recruiting article I posted earlier, lol). I cannot wait until NSD is over he reitterates his feelings. I will find you on here, lol.

You have people? You sound like Carlo. I'll be here, and I won't be hard to find. Yes I do believe this staff will have studs lining up each year. It is important that they balance the number of 5Y w the nuimber of freshman, that is my point. I'm not advocating for every eligible 5Y to get offered to stay, but I am advocating for Danny and Carlo. They contributed to this teams success and will contribute again next year. God forbid they don't come back and we have some injuries in the middle (let's say Grace and Moore). Who is going to step in then and play winning football?

 

[Emcee77]

But everyone has been at ND for four years. I doubt they really care what each has done on the field and whether that makes it hurt more when they aren't offered an extra year. These guys are all friends and just because they don't play I doubt they think of someone as less key than another if one plays but the other is a great leader who doesn't. You can't just evaluate their keyness (a word I think I just made up) by what they have done on the field, when there are 85 guys on a team being important can be more than just producing on the field. Maybe MacCarthy was brought back because he was a great leader, e doesn't produce on the field. It hard for us to quantify who is most important to the team without knowing the inside dynamics of the team. Lynch played a lot last year and people are saying that some players were not upset to see him go. I just don't see the connection between playing and making it harder on the other guys/coaches to see them go. Would it have been hard to Golic go last year for the team? He didn't play until Cave got hurt.

Do you really think so? I get your basic point that some guys can be inspirational leaders even if they don't play, and that some guys can be harmful to team chemistry even if they do play and play well, and we can't understand team chemistry without being on the team ... but I'm a little surprised that it's so controversial that you form a certain bond by actually playing together on the field on gameday. I've been a starter on some teams and a benchwarmer on others, and while I had friends on all of those teams I don't think there's any question that something different happens between the people on whom the outcome of the game actually depends.

Understand, my point is not so much that the players will be emotionally disappointed that a guy they liked wasn't brought back; obviously you could be a starter and your best friend on the team could be a benchwarmer. That sort of emotional response has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's more about whether cutting a guy who was a key contributor is a smart way to run a program.

Bogtrotter's original point was that it might send the wrong message for Coach Kelly to act like the blood, sweat and tears Calabrese left on the field for three years didn't mean anything ... it might show a lack of respect or appreciation. I think that's right, and it might also confuse the players about what the expectations are. Players might say, this guy was essentially a starter for two years, and Coach Kelly doesn't think he's important to the team?

I know what I'm saying is mostly theoretical; I don't know these players personally or what team chemistry is like. But for this and other reasons it seems to me that cutting a key on-field contributor for an unproven guy, no matter how much potential he showed in high school, is pretty risky.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The problem here is that we know what we have in Carlo and Fox and I like what they have done this year. Trey Johnson? Could be the next Manti or could be Anthony McDonald. Point is, one year of something you can count on is usally the safer option and coaches tend to be risk averse.

 

[koonja]

You have people? You sound like Carlo. I'll be here, and I won't be hard to find. Yes I do believe this staff will have studs lining up each year. It is important that they balance the number of 5Y w the nuimber of freshman, that is my point. I'm not advocating for every eligible 5Y to get offered to stay, but I am advocating for Danny and Carlo. They contributed to this teams success and will contribute again next year. God forbid they don't come back and we have some injuries in the middle (let's say Grace and Moore). Who is going to step in then and play winning football?

Since you want both Carlo and Fox back, given Fox is better than Carlo, which of the following would you not let into ND because you want Calabrese for one year?

T. Folston?
Greg Bryant?
Max Redfield?
LJ Moore?
Trey Johnson?
Laquon Tredwell?

I'd take every one of them over Calabrese.

 

[clashmore_jon]

Since you want both Carlo and Fox back, given Fox is better than Carlo, which of the following would you not let into ND because you want Calabrese for one year?

T. Folston?
Greg Bryant?
Max Redfield?
LJ Moore?
Trey Johnson?
Laquon Tredwell?

I'd take every one of them over Calabrese.

hey i have an idea, why don't we just take them all and then on signing day kick off a few guys who aren't quite as good. That seems like a great way to ensure continued dominance. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that.

 

[koonja]

hey i have an idea, why don't we just take them all and then on signing day kick off a few guys who aren't quite as good. That seems like a great way to ensure continued dominance. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that.

Because some are really good (Martin, Cierre, for example).

So honoring a 4 year scholarship but denying a 5th year is 'kicking out'? Stop being emotional, this is a business. I'm glad you're not in charge of this.

You're loyal to the players on the team. I get it. Just like the violinists were loyal to the Titanic. They died.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

Since you want both Carlo and Fox back, given Fox is better than Carlo, which of the following would you not let into ND because you want Calabrese for one year?

T. Folston?
Greg Bryant?
Max Redfield?
LJ Moore?
Trey Johnson?
Laquon Tredwell?

I'd take every one of them over Calabrese.

We don't have room for all of them. I'd like the benefit of Whiskeys positional depth chart spreadsheet prior to answering. Off the cuff, I'd suggest we still have room for 3 with DF and CC coming back along with ZMart, CWatt and Cierre, someone feel free to correct me. From there, I'd take AQM, Redfield and the first to commit from the 3some of Treadwell, Folston and Bryant. With Redfield, the rest of the DB's that have committed and those currently on the roster, LJ Moore becomes unnecessary. With Foxxy and Carlo along w Moore, Grace, Deeb, Anzalone and some I'm sure to be missing, we're ok which makes T Johnson a luxury and with Cierre (in my scenario) we wouldn't need 1 of the 2 from Folston and Bryant. If you think T Johnson is better than Deeb, too bad, Deeb committed and he is in.

 

[RubberSoul]

You would think that ND getting warm with Bryant and Isaac now would light a fire under Folston to get serious about the Irish bit maybe he is looking for an alternative. The big three in Fla dont even want him.

 

[Luckylucci]

The only real chance I think of getting a commit anytime soon would be Bryant. Not saying its going to happen. But Redfield once again stating he could be waiting until NSD and AQM is waiting until the AA game so on Dec. 7th come on down Greg Bryant you are the next star running back for the University of Notre Dame!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We don't have room for all of them. I'd like the benefit of Whiskeys positional depth chart spreadsheet prior to answering.

You rang?

Off the cuff, I'd suggest we still have room for 3 with DF and CC coming back along with ZMart, CWatt and Cierre, someone feel free to correct me. From there, I'd take AQM, Redfield and the first to commit from the 3some of Treadwell, Folston and Bryant. With Redfield, the rest of the DB's that have committed and those currently on the roster, LJ Moore becomes unnecessary. With Foxxy and Carlo along w Moore, Grace, Deeb, Anzalone and some I'm sure to be missing, we're ok which makes T Johnson a luxury and with Cierre (in my scenario) we wouldn't need 1 of the 2 from Folston and Bryant. If you think T Johnson is better than Deeb, too bad, Deeb committed and he is in.

Pretty good for off the cuff. Mike Frank addresses some of this in his "2013 Recruiting Math" article today.

 

[koonja]

We don't have room for all of them. I'd like the benefit of Whiskeys positional depth chart spreadsheet prior to answering. Off the cuff, I'd suggest we still have room for 3 with DF and CC coming back along with ZMart, CWatt and Cierre, someone feel free to correct me. From there, I'd take AQM, Redfield and the first to commit from the 3some of Treadwell, Folston and Bryant. With Redfield, the rest of the DB's that have committed and those currently on the roster, LJ Moore becomes unnecessary. With Foxxy and Carlo along w Moore, Grace, Deeb, Anzalone and some I'm sure to be missing, we're ok which makes T Johnson a luxury and with Cierre (in my scenario) we wouldn't need 1 of the 2 from Folston and Bryant. If you think T Johnson is better than Deeb, too bad, Deeb committed and he is in.

So out of Tredwell, Max Redfield, T. Folston, Greg Bryant, Trey Johnson, and LJ Moore, tell me the THREE you would take, and indicate the THREE you would turn down for one year of Carlo Calabrese.

And I will call you crazy.

 

[OrlaNDomer]

Is Trey Johnson really in play for us?

I'd take any of those listed, but my preference would be:
1) Max Redfield
2) Greg Bryant
3) Laquan Treadwell
4) Trey Johnson
5) Terean Folston
6) LJ Moore

Also I REALLY hope Alquadin Muhammad is Irish, not sure where your including him at.

 

[koonja]

Is Trey Johnson really in play for us?

I'd take any of those listed, but my preference would be:
1) Max Redfield
2) Greg Bryant
3) Laquan Treadwell
4) Trey Johnson
5) Terean Folston
6) LJ Moore

Also I REALLY hope Alquadin Muhammad is Irish, not sure where your including him at.

I should have included him. Slip of the mind.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Allegedly: (1) AQM is a silent; and (2) we have a sizeable lead for Redfield, and will hold a spot for him.

We should assume those two are given, and discuss possibilities beyond that.

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

Irish Sports Daily ‏@ISDUpdate

Some more updates on the #NotreDame coaching staff travels this week and next. (Premium) Irish Sports Daily Forums …

 

[HereComeTheIrish]

So out of Tredwell, Max Redfield, T. Folston, Greg Bryant, Trey Johnson, and LJ Moore, tell me the THREE you would take, and indicate the THREE you would turn down for one year of Carlo Calabrese.

And I will call you crazy.

"Easy Compadre.... We're all friends out here."