Walker Wins Wis Recall, Obama Wins Exit Poll

[Bluto]

scUM Hater tried to rep you but couldn't figure it out. Agree 100%

 

[Rizzophil]

I am a proud Union member and anything I try to retort to most of you will be lost. Everyone has their own opinion and I believe Unions are great. Just do me a favor, stop and think of what your wages and conditions would be like without Unions. Seriously, stop and think.

Not a lot of meat to this post.

$5k of every Ford, Chevy, and Chrylser car goes to pensions. The number is going to continue to up for every American.

Also, OSHA is now a major player in our country and they weren't in the 60's.

Stop and think about the level playing field and how the USA could become a global power again if all states were Right to Work states.

 

[GoIrish41]

Unions wouldn't have to be a major player in this country if corporations didn't abuse the power that their tremendous wealth affords them. This country was never as great as it was in the 1950s, when there was at least a sense that US companies had a sense or responsibility to take care of their employees to repay them for the loyalty. When jobs are shipped overseas and benefits to employees are constantly in the crosshairs of greedy corporate barrons it has become difficult to escape the thought that corporations have sold thier souls and diminished this country in the process. A solid argument could be made that this is not only self serving but also unpatriotic. Attack unions if you wish but the average American would be much, much worse off if they didn't exist.

 

[irishog77]

Not a lot of meat to this post.

$5k of every Ford, Chevy, and Chrylser car goes to pensions. The number is going to continue to up for every American.

Also, OSHA is now a major player in our country and they weren't in the 60's.

Stop and think about the level playing field and how the USA could become a global power again if all states were Right to Work states.

^ This.

There's an equally valid argument claiming the price of goods would be lower, thus increasing wealth/savings/spending on other goods, without union wages driving the price of goods up.

I find it interesting that, for the most part, people who seem to be "pro" union tend to be vehemently pro union...almost like there is no room to acknowledge that union membership (and definitely union LEADERSHIP) MAY be a detriment or cause any problems for employers, workers, or on the economy in general.

 

[Bluto]

Stop and think about the level playing field and how the USA could become a global power again if all states were Right to Work states.

Mexico will beat the US every time if the only thing you are looking for is a low wage and low
regulation environment. The right to works states got into a race to the bottom with non right to work states and then along came NAFTA. From what I understand what could allow the US to gain a competative advantage is a highly educated workforce. Unfortunately we're doing a pretty craptastic job at that. Let's not kid ourselves the US is still the global military and economic super power. It just seems that all that power and the wealth that is the basis for that power is concentrating upward. Anyhow, watch the video...it's funny.

 

[irishog77]

Mexico will beat the US every time if the only thing you are looking for is a low wage and low
regulation environment. The right to works states got into a race to the bottom with non right to work states and then along came NAFTA. From what I understand what could allow the US to gain a competative advantage is a highly educated workforce. Unfortunately we're doing a pretty craptastic job at that. Let's not kid ourselves the US is still the global military and economic super power. It just seems that all that power and the wealth that is the basis for that power is concentrating upward. Anyhow, watch the video...it's funny.

And how do unions and further empowering them help change this???

 

[magogian]

Unions wouldn't have to be a major player in this country if corporations didn't abuse the power that their tremendous wealth affords them. This country was never as great as it was in the 1950s, when there was at least a sense that US companies had a sense or responsibility to take care of their employees to repay them for the loyalty. When jobs are shipped overseas and benefits to employees are constantly in the crosshairs of greedy corporate barrons it has become difficult to escape the thought that corporations have sold thier souls and diminished this country in the process. A solid argument could be made that this is not only self serving but also unpatriotic. Attack unions if you wish but the average American would be much, much worse off if they didn't exist.

Why do corporations send job overseas? Because they hate America?

No, its the cost of labor.

Its interesting that the industries with the heaviest unionization are also generally the least globally competitive and/or need bailouts, e.g. domestic auto companies (except Ford), most domestic airlines, domestic steel manufacturing, and domestic clothes manufacturing. Most of those industries are shadows of their former selves. Why is that? Because the companies are evil and greedy? They may well be , but they aren't the reasons those industries have failed or are failing.

Greedy unions forced them into uncompetitive contracts. As global competition increased, and those domestic manufacturers lost their essentially oligopoly powers, many couldn't survive or declined precipitiously.

All this said, I have much less of a problem with private unions than with public unions. Public unions will be the downfall of many a state and municipality.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I am a proud Union member and anything I try to retort to most of you will be lost. Everyone has their own opinion and I believe Unions are great. Just do me a favor, stop and think of what your wages and conditions would be like without Unions. Seriously, stop and think.

At what point though do you step back and analyze what unions are getting us today?

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Unions created the middle class in this country. They gave workers a fair wage and a safer working environment.

 

[scUM Hater]

Take away the middle class and we will become china, mexico and other third world countries. Do me a favor, go to work monday and tell your boss you need no retirement funds, demand a cut in pay by more than half and decline all health care benefits. Oh what, you won't? Get rid of unions and you won't have this choice. All of these will be taken.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Why do corporations send job overseas?

Because they can pay people a horrible wage and provide horrible working conditions.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Unions created the middle class in this country. They gave workers a fair wage and a safer working environment.

Unions were hugely important in the past. They aren't anymore. The unions I've dealt with (electricians and road construction) were mainly intimidating thugs.

Take away the middle class and we will become china, mexico and other third world countries. Do me a favor, go to work monday and tell your boss you need no retirement funds, demand a cut in pay by more than half and decline all health care benefits. Oh what, you won't? Get rid of unions and you won't have this choice. All of these will be taken.

Yeah, okay hoss. Because you say so.

For the record, I would be happy if two things happened: 1) public sector unions were completely destroyed, and 2) every state was a right-to-work state. If you want to be a trades union, go for it.

I think you should read some Karl Marx, and I mean that seriously. His observations are mostly perfect, and grim. The more technology improves, the more worthless your job becomes. If a worker isn't highly skilled or in a protected niche, your job is vulnerable. We saw it with textiles in the 19th century, we saw it with manufacturing in the 20th century, and we are beginning to see it in "white collar" work places like education today. But Karl Marx's equation was incomplete, still though, he's was right on in that unskilled labor will be vulnerable and that's just an economic reality that comes with globalization.

 

[Bluto]

And how do unions and further empowering them help change this???

The wages and benifits they pay allow the offspring of union members to attend college and or a trade school without incurring massive debt loads. Also, a good number of Unions provide vocational training as a part of their apprenticeship requirements.

OE3: Training

 

[Irish Houstonian]

The wages and benifits they pay allow the offspring of union members to attend college and or a trade school without incurring massive debt loads. Also, a good number of Unions provide vocational training as a part of their apprenticeship requirements.

OE3: Training

So instead of paying unions more, why not just give that money directly to all underprivileged college-aged kids and those entering the workforce? That way everyone benefits, not just those lucky enough to be born to a union-member. And it cuts out the middle-man.

 

[Bluto]

So instead of paying unions more, why not just give that money directly to all underprivileged college-aged kids and those entering the workforce? That way everyone benefits, not just those lucky enough to be born to a union-member. And it cuts out the middle-man.

Fine with me. I think top notch healthcare and education should be free to all who are citizens. Unfortunately a large number of people in this country would crap a brick and call you Joseph Stalin 2 or something equally silly simply for sugesting this because you'd have to raise revenue and or cut defense spending to pay for such things.

 

[magogian]

Amazing how a private worker unionization rate of 6.9% sustains the enitre middle class in this country. What else do unions do, crap rainbows?

Union Members Summary

 

[scUM Hater]

So instead of paying unions more, why not just give that money directly to all underprivileged college-aged kids and those entering the workforce? That way everyone benefits, not just those to a uniolucky enough to be born n-member. And it cuts out the middle-man.

Thank you, exactly my point.

You must have went to private school. Learn to spell.

 

[scUM Hater]

Bluto, some of these peiople are IDIOTS. Thank god for Unions. Kinda wish they would be abolished so these idiots would know how bad it would get.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Bluto, some of these peiople are IDIOTS. Thank god for Unions. Kinda wish they would be abolished so these idiots would know how bad it would get.

In you opinion, what would happen?

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Before too long, its going to be just the rich and the poor. There won't be a middle class in this country.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Idiots because they don't agree with you?

You were a "I'm taking my ball and going home because I lost" kid weren't you...




Abolish Public Unions.

 

[Bluto]

It's pretty clear that as union membership increased in the beginning of the last century it played a key role in the rise of the middle class in the US. Conversely as union membership has declined and public policy has become increasingly anti-union (beginning with Reagan breaking the air traffic controllers union) the middle class has seen wages stagnate, wealth decline and inequality and upward mobility in the US according to Joseph Stiglitz now lagging behind I believe all other western nations. Unions serve a really important role in the balance of wealth and power in any civilized society in my opinion and if they are done away with completely then we will be even further down the road to becoming a society that looks more like present day Mexico. Where wealth is everything and everyone else can suck it.

 

[Rizzophil]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Bluto, I'm convinced that you will twist the Declaration.

However, the closer we get to following this as a country the better we will all be. Healthcare, cell phones, and redistribution of wealth, etc. etc. are not supposed to be the government's job.

Government cannot make money - they can only take it and redistribute. It's the government's job to 'referee' for everyone and not to slant towards their re-elections efforts. To be clear, neither party adheres to the Declaration but it is still valid today as it was in 1776.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Bluto, I'm convinced that you will twist the Declaration.

However, the closer we get to following this as a country the better we will all be. Healthcare, cell phones, and redistribution of wealth, etc. etc. are not supposed to be the government's job.

Government cannot make money - they can only take it and redistribute. It's the government's job to 'referee' for everyone and not to slant towards their re-elections efforts. To be clear, neither party adheres to the Declaration but it is still valid today as it was in 1776.

Exactly. Taxation is to fund an adequate government, not a method of redistributing wealth.

The Federal government in particular is out of control, whole departments need to be abolished.

 

[magogian]

Bluto, some of these peiople are IDIOTS. Thank god for Unions. Kinda wish they would be abolished so these idiots would know how bad it would get.

Thank you, exactly my point.

You must have went to public school. Learn to spell.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

So getting rid of unions will solve all of our country's problems? I bet eliminating corporate greed would bring in way more revenue. Sorry, revenue is a dirty word these days.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

So getting rid of unions will solve all of our country's problems? I bet eliminating corporate greed would bring in way more revenue. Sorry, revenue is a dirty word these days.

This is why our country is heading towards a cliff. It is all this us versus them mentality. Nothing good can come from a person with a D after their name in the eyes of Rs and vice versa.

Unions were a necessity back when they were formed. Workers were being treated like crap. We now have laws in place that protect workers. Unions have become far too powerful and have the power to hinder the economy. For a business to succeed it needs to have the power to be flexible and to be able to adapt. Unions hinder this. Unions hate trade because they know that they will lose the comparative advantage to other countries in their fields. I study International trade and every single model we use ends up with a POSITIVE net welfare increase when free trade is used. Unions have skewed wages and benefits. You can argue that higher wages lead to more prosperity, but at the same time more wages = more demand which = higher prices. Money doesn't go as far.

If Unions are so great, why is membership plummeting overall when workers are no longer FORCED to join to maintain a job?


http://www.johnwcooper.com/right-to-work-laws/right-to-work-laws.pdf <<-- Great Read.

 

[Buster Bluth]

It's pretty clear that as union membership increased in the beginning of the last century it played a key role in the rise of the middle class in the US.

Unions played a big role in getting better workplace environments. That battle was won, and with OSHA, 24/7 media outlets, and social media, those environments will never return.

The "rise of the middle class" is MUCH more directly attributed to capitalism. I'll explain...

Conversely as union membership has declined and public policy has become increasingly anti-union (beginning with Reagan breaking the air traffic controllers union) the middle class has seen wages stagnate, wealth decline and inequality and upward mobility in the US according to Joseph Stiglitz now lagging behind I believe all other western nations.

Unions declined because they got beat in business. A union-made product is more expensive, so it must be better to be worth it. When it isn't, they get creamed in business. That is just the economics of it all, corporations need to lower costs to compete.

You are lying when you say that wealth has declined. I read a report a month or two back stating that since 1970, with inflation accounted for, wealth has risen something like ~8% for the very poor, ~30% for the middle class, and ~256% for the rich. So while the rich are much better off with their income, everyone is.

Still, income/wealth doesn't tell the whole story. The standard of living and quality of life is still rising, due to capitalism. While you claim wealth is decreased, in relation to the cost of goods it has not. You cannot notice it from one year to the one before it, but you would be blind to see how society has moved forward over, say, a decade.

A computer ad from a decade or so ago:

For that price today, your computer is 50x better.

A "good" digital camera today would have cost ~$6,000+ in 2000. Today it is $100.

Today we have iPads, and wireless internet, and televisions in 1080p for a fraction of the cost. Everything piece of technology you use is cheaper than it ever was. Consider that.

The lifestyle Americans live is so superior to most of the world, it's not even funny.

Unions serve a really important role in the balance of wealth and power in any civilized society in my opinion and if they are done away with completely then we will be even further down the road to becoming a society that looks more like present day Mexico. Where wealth is everything and everyone else can suck it.

No, they don't. If they were the case, cities with a big union presence would be doing very well right now. They are outdated dinosaurs throwing a wrench in the globalmarket to try and hold onto their piece of the pie. They will lose that fight unless there is an artificial boost (aka the Democratic Party).

Union members threaten that we'd turn into Mexico or some third world country, and that is Grade-A bullshit. Capitalism is constantly creating wealth, and to create more and more wealth you need to sell goods. You can't sell goods to the very poor. Even if the rich had the power to turn the middle class into serfs (and they don't), it wouldn't even f*cking be to their benefit because their sales would decrease.

Honest question, have you every taking a single economics class?

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Got a question for all of you.

Would you rather:

1.) Have all of Rockefeller's money but have to live in 1900 with 1900's technology

OR

2.) Live as you are right now.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Everyone should watch these:

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3p1sW9aIQ-Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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