The Epic Failure that is the 2011 Recruiting Class

[mtnd15]

LOL why do I continue to read these preposterous arguments

 

[Crazy Balki]

LOL why do I continue to read these preposterous arguments

I wish I knew.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Well the problem has been that the 2011 and 2012 classes were disasters in hindsight, and all the elite talent from the 2011 class was gone before last season anyway. 2012 had some solid pieces but has provided us with almost no depth as we lost guys to transfers/injury from an already small class. Our 2013 class was stellar IMO (Championship runs tend to do that) and has already provided as much as both those classes combined, even while still being young. We HAVE to win this year and get some recruiting momentum because the backbone of this team is based off that class.

The 2014 and 2015 classes have been OK for the most part, but not championship caliber. I do think they're much better composed than Kelly's earlier classes and should provide good depth for this season, which should be an improvement in and of itself. But the star power on this team is still concentrated in the 2013 class and to some degree the 2012 class, which the elite players likely gone at the end of this year. This is a huge put-up or shut-up year.

I'm not so sure about that. 2014 is a very good depth class, but you're correct in that it's lacking in star power. 2015 on the other hand seems to be riddled with star power. It didn't seem like it from the start, but guys like Sanders, St. Brown, Jones, Coney prior to his injury Crawford, Tillery have stood out immediately.

 

[kmoose]

He didn't play A LOT that season, he was used almost solely as an inline blocker, but that was it.

Balki, he started 7 out of 13 games, played in all 13, and lettered for the year. How can you continue to insist that he played a minimal role?

Maybe they used him almost exclusively as a blocker, but Riddick ran for 900+ yards that season, with a 4.8 ypc avg. And Wood ran for 700+ at 6.5 yards a carry. The team ran for 23 TDs, to only 14 passing. The running game kind of carried the offense that year; so the blockers played a major role, even if that was all they did was block.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Hmmmm, I was looking for someone more famous.



No, lots of people are right here. You're just not in this case. You made something up to support your argument. The truth is, Niklas played A LOT that season, and was an important part of that team. To say he was "hardly ever on the field" just isn't right. Not even close in fact.

Sorry to call you out on it.

Bully

 

[Crazy Balki]

Balki, he started 7 out of 13 games, played in all 13, and lettered for the year. How can you continue to insist that he played a minimal role?

Maybe they used him almost exclusively as a blocker, but Riddick ran for 900+ yards that season, with a 4.8 ypc avg. And Wood ran for 700+ at 6.5 yards a carry. The team ran for 23 TDs, to only 14 passing. The running game kind of carried the offense that year; so the blockers played a major role, even if that was all they did was block.

7 out of 13 games? Where are you getting this from? Eifert was the starter throughout the season. Niklas moved over from LB that year, was almost solely an in-line blocker, and was inconsistent at that. Not a slight on him, because he improved massively in 2013, but that's just how it was. Wood and Riddick had good seasons, but it wasn't the right side of the line that allowed them to thrive. It was the tandem of Watt and Martin that Wood and Riddick ran behind most of the time. Niklas was serviceable, but nothing spectacular in 2012.

EDIT: Found the stat, but that's irrelevant. That's like saying Rees started against Miami in 2012. That was merely to throw defenses off, and stretch Eifert out wide. They also used Koyack that year.

 

[Irish YJ]

Bully

 

[Crazy Balki]

Again, I didn't post this as to be pessimistic or to call out coach Kelly. It's just how it turned out, and it was fitting given the recent news about Ishaq.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Yes it did have a "ton" of elite talent, yes there was a lot of underdeveloped 3-star type guys too, which I've stated as well as how we've improved since then in taking raw athletic players with high potential but aren't ranked that high. Tuitt, Ishaq, Lynch and Koyack were all ranked 5-stars by 1 or more sites. Several others in that class were ranked as high 4-star guys as well.

Right and three of those five-star players were drafted. They didn't all shit the bed. Maybe they didn't tear it up like you thought they would, but that's how it goes. Every school in the country with five-star recruits has a thread about how much they busted. Not exactly "epic failure," seriously.

I really think you're not putting enough emphasis on injuries. Look at Springmann, he had a fantastic 2012 and then had to retire from football. Grace was starting at MLB and starting to really turn the corner and lost 1.5 years to a broken leg. Matt Hegarty battled all kinds of injuries, one career-threatening, no? Etc etc.

And as for the TE's, are you really going to say that Ben Koyack lived up to his star rating? C'mon man we got a solid but unspectacular year from him last season, he squeaked in the draft in the 7th round. This coming from a 4-5 star TE.

Sure Koyack didn't amount to what we hoped he would have been. What's the big deal? He played behind Tyler Eifert and Troy Niklas, and then played a season in which he played well enough to get drafted. You can't argue that, because the film speaks the truth.

It takes a lot for me to call a TE a bust if they get drafted.

Niklas finally developed into a good TE for us in 2013, both blocking and catching, but prior to that, he was still very raw, and was wildly inconsistent. You can't argue that, because the film speaks the truth.

Dude, it's college football. They rarely start out as studs.

There was moments, where he had good blocking days, and then games like Stanford where he got abused constantly. He was practically invisible as a receiving threat.

And finished his time at Notre Dame as the best blocking TE in the country and second-round draft pick.

I think it's great that people bring up a lack of development when apparently some of the talent developed so quickly it left eligibility on the table to play professionally.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Show me a class with a half-dozen draft picks, two three-star recruits and a walk-on who work their way to captain spots, a QB who makes enough plays to get into the championship, etc and I'll take it most years. It's just not an "epic failure."

2012 on the other hand...

 

[Old Man Mike]

.... please let the kickoff come early .....

 

[kmoose]

Found the stat, but that's irrelevant.

Balki: Niklas barely saw the field in 2012.

Me: He started more than half of their games and also earned a letter.

Balki: Niklas didn't play a lot that season.

Me: He started 7 out of 13 games...

Balki: That's irrelevant....




And people wonder why I drink so much?

 

[Crazy Balki]

Balki: Niklas barely saw the field in 2012.

Me: He started more than half of their games and also earned a letter.

Balki: Niklas didn't play a lot that season.

Me: He started 7 out of 13 games...

Balki: That's irrelevant....




And people wonder why I drink so much?

Because it is an irrelevant stat. He started 7 of 13 games, but that doesn't mean he played as often as Eifert, and even when he was on the field, he still wasn't that effective. He was still very raw. Did everyone just delete the Stanford game from memory?

 

[kmoose]

Because it is an irrelevant stat. He started 7 of 13 games, but that doesn't mean he played as often as Eifert, and even when he was on the field, he still wasn't that effective. He was still very raw. Did everyone just delete the Stanford game from memory?

So is this how it is going to go? You claim that he barely saw the field........ Then, when it's pointed out that he played a HELL of a lot more than you indicated, you switch to, "Well, yeah, but he wasn't very good!!" If we trot out that he was named the "Rookie" of the year, at the ND football banquet, what will be next? "Well, he didn't jump very high!!"

 

[arahop]

Looking back.... There shouldn't be one person on here that claims that class didn't turn out to be highly disappointing. I'm not blaming it on the coaches at all. We have seen way too much attrition on our football roster. Hope it changes

 

[Crazy Balki]

Show me a class with a half-dozen draft picks, two three-star recruits and a walk-on who work their way to captain spots, a QB who makes enough plays to get into the championship, etc and I'll take it most years. It's just not an "epic failure."

2012 on the other hand...

I only count 4 of 23 players drafted (Lynch, Tuitt, Koyack and Niklas), and of those 4, 2 of them left in their true junior season, and none of them went in the 1st round. Koyack had a solid senior year, but only warranted a 7th round pick and wasn't overly impressive at ND or in any pro workouts/Senior Bowl. Lynch left after his true freshman season, so hardly count that as an accomplishment that he got drafted. He spent 2 seasons at USF compared to just 1 here.

Martin may very well end up as a mid-round pickup if he stays healthy, and Farley may warrant a later round pick, but it's unlikely. Considering this class comprised of 12 of 23 4-stars or higher, that's not really that impressive. 2012 is similar, but the standout stars that didn't transfer or get expelled are still here.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Looking back.... There shouldn't be one person on here that claims that class didn't turn out to be highly disappointing. I'm not blaming it on the coaches at all. We have seen way too much attrition on our football roster. Hope it changes

Absolutely. I'm not blaming coaching either, but it's interesting to point out how dismal this class turned out as was the 2012 class (though I question as to why it was so small to begin with). Just way too much in terms of cumulative transfers, injuries and suspensions.

 

[NDinL.A.]

He didn't play A LOT that season, he was used almost solely as an inline blocker, but that was it. Not to mention Koyack was used in the same mold that year as well. The fact though, was the Niklas wasn't good that year. He had moments where he flashed a little bit of potential, but he was still very underdeveloped both as a blocker and receiver. Need I remind you of the Stanford game in 2012? Him and Lombard got abused all game long.

Wait, so first, he "Hardly played at all in 2012", and now he's getting abused all game long? Do you see why I can't take you seriously?

Sorry that you don't agree, actually no I'm not, but I've stated my case, and more people agree with what I have to say. Sorry to call you out on it...

Who has agreed with you that Niklas "hardly played at all in 2012"??? Here, I'll make the list of all the people that agreed with that statement below:





Insert here: "Blank Space" by Taylor Swift

Because it is an irrelevant stat. He started 7 of 13 games, but that doesn't mean he played as often as Eifert, and even when he was on the field, he still wasn't that effective. He was still very raw. Did everyone just delete the Stanford game from memory?

Who said he played as often as Eifert? (No one) Who said anything about him not being ineffective at times? (No one)

And why would we waste our time looking at the Stanford game to see if he was inneffective, when you keep telling us he hardly played at all that year (despite playing in every game and starting 7 of them)? Think about that: He started 7 games, played in all 13, was in several key plays that year, anyone who watched the team that year knows that he played a ton as the in-line blocker (ND ran the ball a lot that year FYI), and yet you're still trying to sell us this bill of goods that everyone knows is bullshit.

How hard is it to say, "You know what, I fucked that statement up. My bad. He obviously did play a lot, but it doesn't take away from my opinion that the class was an epic fail." Is it really that hard?

 

[Crazy Balki]

So is this how it is going to go? You claim that he barely saw the field........ Then, when it's pointed out that he played a HELL of a lot more than you indicated, you switch to, "Well, yeah, but he wasn't very good!!" If we trot out that he was named the "Rookie" of the year, at the ND football banquet, what will be next? "Well, he didn't jump very high!!"

He was nowhere near the rookie of the year, because A) he played prior to that, B) Keivarae Russell, C) Everett Golson, D) Stephon Tuitt. By what means were they judging the players to deem him worthy of that? Because by all accounts, he didn't deserve it.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Wait, so first, he "Hardly played at all in 2012", and now he's getting abused all game long? Do you see why I can't take you seriously?



Who has agreed with you that Niklas "hardly played at all in 2012"??? Here, I'll make the list of all the people that agreed with that statement below:





Insert here: "Blank Space" by Taylor Swift



Who said he played as often as Eifert? (No one) Who said anything about him not being ineffective at times? (No one)

And why would we waste our time looking at the Stanford game to see if he was inneffective, when you keep telling us he hardly played at all that year (despite playing in every game and starting 7 of them)? Think about that: He started 7 games, played in all 13, was in several key plays that year, anyone who watched the team that year knows that he played a ton as the in-line blocker (ND ran the ball a lot that year FYI), and yet you're still trying to sell us this bill of goods that everyone knows is bullshit.

How hard is it to say, "You know what, I fucked that statement up. My bad. He obviously did play a lot, but it doesn't take away from my opinion that the class was an epic fail." Is it really that hard?

Fine, you know what, he did play a lot, that was my bad. What I meant to say was, he wasn't as good as you or a few others are making him out to be THAT YEAR. He wasn't, and by no means do I think he was a major contributor that season. He was an okay in-line blocker THAT YEAR. But please stop with this constant nit-picking, because as you can see, you've completely nuked this thread off topic.

Secondly, yes ND did run the ball a lot that year, but to the left side with Martin-Watt, this has already been discussed. The right side was very average that season and was the weak link of the line. Niklas, for as good as he was in 2013, wasn't there in 2012, he just wasn't. He had stone hands, and whiffed on blocks. And that's not his fault because he simply wasn't ready for that big of a role, he just moved over to TE. Next year, he had a fine season, but that doesn't suddenly make the 2011 class a golden nugget. It's still pretty bad. Not faulting Kelly for it, but that's just how it turned out! For the love of God, MOVE ON!

 

[IrishinSyria]

It's more than a little hyperbolic to call the 2011 class an epic failure. It's absolutely true that they didn't live up to our highest expectations. In terms of overall talent, I don't think there's a lot that distinguishes the number 3 class in the country in a given year from the number 20 class. There will be some outliers at the top, but outside of that most of the big programs are going to be within the margin of error of each other.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I only count 4 of 23 players drafted (Lynch, Tuitt, Koyack and Niklas), and of those 4, 2 of them left in their true junior season, and none of them went in the 1st round. Koyack had a solid senior year, but only warranted a 7th round pick and wasn't overly impressive at ND or in any pro workouts/Senior Bowl. Lynch left after his true freshman season, so hardly count that as an accomplishment that he got drafted. He spent 2 seasons at USF compared to just 1 here.

Martin may very well end up as a mid-round pickup if he stays healthy, and Farley may warrant a later round pick, but it's unlikely. Considering this class comprised of 12 of 23 4-stars or higher, that's not really that impressive. 2012 is similar, but the standout stars that didn't transfer or get expelled are still here.

You're moving the goal posts like it's your second job. When you say "that's not really that impressive," that isn't how you framed this thread.

"None of them went in the 1st round," come on dude. They were good enough to go in the second round, and did so after their junior years. That's impressive not matter how much you want to deny it.

We get it though, the class was largely underwhelming. It could have been fantastic if injuries didn't take an abnormally large toll. Or if the academic scandal didn't end the careers of Hardy and Daniels. Or if a few had their better priorities.

We'll have to add 2015 to their story too. How will Hegarty and Golson do starting at two programs that just went to the playoffs...could they get drafted too? Maybe. What if this Irish team makes it to the playoffs and three of their captains were from the class of 2011? What will you say then? I'd guess "oh that doesn't count it was only one season" like you have with the success of the other guys on the list.

 

[Crazy Balki]

It's more than a little hyperbolic to call the 2011 class an epic failure. It's absolutely true that they didn't live up to our highest expectations. In terms of overall talent, I don't think there's a lot that distinguishes the number 3 class in the country in a given year from the number 20 class. There will be some outliers at the top, but outside of that most of the big programs are going to be within the margin of error of each other.

I agree with your point. I was more pointing out the fact that our 2011 class fell apart like it did, not really comparing it to other classes.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Fine, you know what, he did play a lot, that was my bad. What I meant to say was, he wasn't as good as you or a few others are making him out to be THAT YEAR.

Please show me where I said he was great or even good that year. All I refuted was your assertion that he hardly played, which just wasn't even close to being true, and that he contributed more than 'hardly ever playing'. Stop making things up. And you could have let it go yourself, but you insisted I was wrong. Oops.

It's still pretty bad. Not faulting Kelly for it, but that's just how it turned out! For the love of God, MOVE ON!!

To borrow your line, "R-E-L-A-X".

 

[Crazy Balki]

You're moving the goal posts like it's your second job. When you say "that's not really that impressive," that isn't how you framed this thread.

"None of them went in the 1st round," come on dude. They were good enough to go in the second round, and did so after their junior years. That's impressive not matter how much you want to deny it.

We get it though, the class was largely underwhelming. It could have been fantastic if injuries didn't take an abnormally large toll. Or if the academic scandal didn't end the careers of Hardy and Daniels. Or if a few had their better priorities.

We'll have to add 2015 to their story too. How will Hegarty and Golson do starting at two programs that just went to the playoffs...could they get drafted too? Maybe. What if this Irish team makes it to the playoffs and three of their captains were from the class of 2011? What will you say then? I'd guess "oh that doesn't count it was only one season" like you have with the success of the other guys on the list.

Okay, 2 2nd rounders does not turn a class around, and their on-field production was inconsistent. We got 1 great year from Tuitt, and then a very average year, we got 1 good year from Niklas and an average developmental year. I'd be surprised if Golson got drafted unless he had an insanely good Heisman-finalist year, which I highly doubt. Hegarty might, but his health will always be a concern for NFL teams to pick up, so it's unlikely. Nick Martin, could be a mid-round pick, which I've stated, but I also stated that the 3 best players in our class that stayed up until their senior season were 3 of our lowest ranked recruits, one of which was a walk-on. Just because we have 3 captains from that class doesn't mean much of anything. They're the oldest members of the team and if they contribute, they're easy captain candidates. Simple as that. That doesn't a successful class make.

 

[Irish YJ]

anyone watching Aquinas vs BT Washington on ESPN? Just saw a massive stick by Aquinas

asante Samuel jr (yes, his son) just got an INT for Aquinas.

 

[stlnd01]

Jaylon is as high a profile recruit as you will find so I take exception to the lack of "high reward" types. As high profile as Manti? I dunno.

Quenton Nelson was a five star, so was Max Redfield, (Greg Bryant, Vanderdoes and Keil being lost opportunities) So half the five stars we signed since 2012 are starters this year and the other half are gone. Those are shots worth taking.

Alize Jones is kind of a big deal, as is Jerry Tillery. Two big frosh that look to contribute on a very high level this year with ridiculous upside.

Russell is an All American, Stanley a first round draft pick, Fuller has developed into an early round receiver..... I'm not see the lack of "high-reward" here? Or does it not count because most of these guys are not high risk kids?

That last bit.
I'm not saying we shouldn't chase five-stars. Of course we should. But we need to chase the right five-stars instead of contorting ourselves to pull in elite kids who are a high probability to leave/flunk out/whatever anyway. I'd rather see us spend that time recruiting depth and upside.

Look at the players you named:
Jaylon was a no-brainer. A Catholic school kid from Fort Wayne who committed early and has been rock solid the whole way. (btw, will Jaylon be considered a bust if he leaves after three?)
Fuller's also a Catholic school product from the Northeast who committed within ten days of landing an offer.
We've never had any trouble recruiting or retaining elite offensive linemen like Nelson and Stanley.
Jerry Tillery? I know some people thought he'd flip but if you look at how he carried himself in recruiting - visiting Dartmouth, requesting a visit with Fr. Ted - he was a close to a lock as you'll ever get for an elite player from the Deep South.
Russell and especially Redfield check a couple of the higher-risk boxes (distance, flipping a commitment), but both appear to be very high-character kids who are committed to the education they can get at Notre Dame. Both could have easily left by now. They didn't.
All of them profile very differently than, say, Lynch, Tee Shepherd, Davonte Neal and some of the other drama queens who sucked up so much time and energy in recruiting (and then on campus) a few cycles ago. Not to mention the Greenberrys and Darbys who never even made it to Signing Day.
Kelly & Co. are doing it better now.

 

[Buster Bluth]

What if this Irish team makes it to the playoffs and three of their captains were from the class of 2011? What will you say then? I'd guess "oh that doesn't count it was only one season" like you have with the success of the other guys on the list.

Just because we have 3 captains from that class doesn't mean much of anything. They're the oldest members of the team and if they contribute, they're easy captain candidates. Simple as that.

That doesn't a successful class make.

But it might make it not an "epic failure." You don't even get the point you're trying to make. I only need to justify it not being an epic failure, I don't need to prove that it was a great class.

But I could make the argument that it was a fine class. Multiple starters on a 12-1 team (the best Notre Dame team since 1993), maybe six NFL picks, and potentially the most important leaders on what could be another special Notre Dame team. I'll take that class more times than not.

I'm going to go enjoy my Friday night now. Have a good one.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Depth and upside seems to have been the MO for Kelly since the collapse of 2012. 2013 was kind of a unique situation since we went 12-0 that year, and got a ton of high-level recruits. Still some quality depth that year. Once 2014 rolled around however, I think Kelly realized that he needed to stock up on DL, especially later in the cycle once he realized they were moving to a 4 down lineman scheme.

 

[Crazy Balki]

But it might make it not an "epic failure." You don't even get the point you're trying to make. I only need to justify it not being an epic failure, I don't need to prove that it was a great class.

But I could make the argument that it was a fine class. Multiple starters on a 12-1 team (the best Notre Dame team since 1993), maybe six NFL picks, and potentially the most important leaders on what could be another special Notre Dame team. I'll take that class more times than not.

I'm going to go enjoy my Friday night now. Have a good one.

Okay, let's put those particular three careers in hindsight shall we?

- Joe Schmidt: Walk-on with an earned scholarship, so technically not a member of the official class, however, I'll bite. Joe was a very solid rotational player for us in 2013, and helped stop the bleeding after Grace got hurt, however, he wasn't anything special. 2014, he played a huge role, but let's also remember he wasn't perfect, and that he missed the last half of the season. He's yet to have a good full season yet (meaning a total of 1 year of good production)

- Matthias Farley: Low 3-star, began as a WR, converted to S. Was solid there, but let's not kid ourselves, he struggled, especially in 2013 when the front 7 was weaker. He moved to Nickel in 2014, and had a pretty good year, but still had moments where he'd struggle, as did practically everybody on defense that year. I do think he'll finally have that good year and end his career on a high note.

- Nick Martin: Mid 3-star, started in 2013 at Center and played very well. Sadly missed a bunch of games that year to injury, and that carried over to 2014, where he struggled for most of the season, minus the bowl game. Expecting a good year from him, but so far, most of a good year production from him so far.

We've had good contributors from that class, but so should every single class we get. We shouldn't have much less than half of the class contribute at some point for about a season at a higher than 'meh' level. That's not a good thing. Doesn't help depth either.