NDFan4Life
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Don't waste your breath. Bob won't answer any of the questions I posed on a previous page. He thinks that just bombing Syria will cure all of the ills.
Situation in Syria
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Don't waste your breath. Bob won't answer any of the questions I posed on a previous page. He thinks that just bombing Syria will cure all of the ills.
BobD
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I did answer your questions, you didn't like my answer.
And I like you so don't start no $hit with me good sir
kmoose
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White Phosphorus is not a "chemical weapon"............. it's an incendiary weapon. You're comparing apples to watermelons!!
kmoose
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If I use white phosphorus to start a fire on the outside wall of a structure, with the intent of the fire driving the fighters inside out, then did I attack the enemy with chemical weapons?
Depends on its use. In the cases mentioned above the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons which monitors the CWC commented that it was a chemical weapon.
BobD
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White phosphorus is a chemical weapon with two different uses. In its "conventional" use as a
tool of war, white phosphorus provides illumination and smoke cover for soldiers in combat.
During the battle of Fallujah in November 2004, the United States used white phosphorus in
"shake and bake" missions to flush out insurgent positions. Such use potentially violates the
Geneva Convention on Biological and Chemical Weapons of 1980 banning the use of incendiary
weapons in civilian areas. (The U.S. has yet to sign this part of the Convention.)
BobD
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Willy Peter (white phosphorus chemical munitions)
by Danny Mayer
Z magazine, January 2006
The U.S. is again using white phosphorus, a chemical munition known more commonly in the
military as Willy Peter.
White phosphorus is a chemical weapon with two different uses. In its "conventional" use as a
tool of war, white phosphorus provides illumination and smoke cover for soldiers in combat.
During the battle of Fallujah in November 2004, the United States used white phosphorus in
"shake and bake" missions to flush out insurgent positions. Such use potentially violates the
Geneva Convention on Biological and Chemical Weapons of 1980 banning the use of incendiary
weapons in civilian areas. (The U.S. has yet to sign this part of the Convention.)
While the Pentagon initially denied using white phosphorus in any capacity other than as an
illumination round, reports from embedded U.S. journalists and a March 2005 Field Artillery
magazine article published by the U.S. military said just the opposite. These two sources, coupled with Italian media and eyewitness accounts of civilians in Fallujah burned to
the bone, forced the Pentagon to change from suggesting purity of motive ("we don't use napalm
or chemical weapons") to a more nuanced and legalistic terminology. Now, it seems, white
phosphorus was "used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants."
Because the U. S. is not a signatory to the 1980 Geneva Convention and has challenged the legal
definition of chemical weapons, the Pentagon now claims that white phosphorus is "not a
chemical weapon" and therefore "not outlawed or illegal."
For the Pentagon, at least, the "shake and bake" missions are a "potent psychological weapon"
that will drive the enemy "out of their holes." The use of white phosphorus has a particularly brutal history. During the war in Vietnam, the U.S. used white
phosphorous as an improved form of napalm, terrorizing enemies. Then, as now, it was touted
as a psychological tool of warfare necessary to subdue enemy hamlets.
Unlike napalm, which in Vietnam left villagers and enemies alike with massive burns all over
their bodies, white phosphorus burns down to the bone.
Le The Thrung, a Vietnamese doctor studying white phosphorus burns in 1969, describes its
effects on the skin: "urning phosphorus produces 800-1,000 degrees centigrade heat.
Scattered phosphorus particles go on consuming themselves and deepen burn wounds." Next,
chemical compounds "create a chemical burn, like an acid, drawing water from the cells. This process generates great pain in the nervous system." Finally, white phosphorus compounds oxygenate and penetrate "the blood stream and white blood cells in the dermis, subdermis, and deeper skin layers." This creates what he calls an "organic toxicity [that] blocks off all blood circulation with the burn area."
It wasn't just medical professionals noting the brutal effects of white phosphorus. A U.S serviceperson, at the height of the Vietnam War, remarked, "We sure are pleased with those backroom boys at Dow. The original product wasn't so hot-if the gooks were quick they could scrape it off. So the boys started adding polystyrene-now it sticks like **** to a blanket. But then if the gooks jumped under water it stopped burning, so they started adding Willy Peter so's to make it burn better. It'll even burn under water now. And one drop is enough; it'll keep on burning right down to the bone so they die anyway from phosphorus poisoning."
This is what our military and political leaders currently define as a "potent psychological weapon?" These are the actions that citizens of empire are to support and legitimize, even if tacitly, in the name of spreading democracy and securing our own nebulous borders?
No, this is not about our national feelings of moral fortitude. This is about civilians and "enemies" alike having chemicals dropped on them like rain and their skin bubbling, melting, wasting away with no way to scrape off the pain of oxidizing phosphorus and no way to cauterize the slow, painful melting into the nervous system and bloodstream. No, for those getting "smoked out of their holes," there is very little, if anything, psychological about Willy Peter.
Danny Mayer is a PhD student at the University of Kentucky.
International War Crimes & Criminals
Weapons page
Home Page
by Danny Mayer
Z magazine, January 2006
The U.S. is again using white phosphorus, a chemical munition known more commonly in the
military as Willy Peter.
White phosphorus is a chemical weapon with two different uses. In its "conventional" use as a
tool of war, white phosphorus provides illumination and smoke cover for soldiers in combat.
During the battle of Fallujah in November 2004, the United States used white phosphorus in
"shake and bake" missions to flush out insurgent positions. Such use potentially violates the
Geneva Convention on Biological and Chemical Weapons of 1980 banning the use of incendiary
weapons in civilian areas. (The U.S. has yet to sign this part of the Convention.)
While the Pentagon initially denied using white phosphorus in any capacity other than as an
illumination round, reports from embedded U.S. journalists and a March 2005 Field Artillery
magazine article published by the U.S. military said just the opposite. These two sources, coupled with Italian media and eyewitness accounts of civilians in Fallujah burned to
the bone, forced the Pentagon to change from suggesting purity of motive ("we don't use napalm
or chemical weapons") to a more nuanced and legalistic terminology. Now, it seems, white
phosphorus was "used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants."
Because the U. S. is not a signatory to the 1980 Geneva Convention and has challenged the legal
definition of chemical weapons, the Pentagon now claims that white phosphorus is "not a
chemical weapon" and therefore "not outlawed or illegal."
For the Pentagon, at least, the "shake and bake" missions are a "potent psychological weapon"
that will drive the enemy "out of their holes." The use of white phosphorus has a particularly brutal history. During the war in Vietnam, the U.S. used white
phosphorous as an improved form of napalm, terrorizing enemies. Then, as now, it was touted
as a psychological tool of warfare necessary to subdue enemy hamlets.
Unlike napalm, which in Vietnam left villagers and enemies alike with massive burns all over
their bodies, white phosphorus burns down to the bone.
Le The Thrung, a Vietnamese doctor studying white phosphorus burns in 1969, describes its
effects on the skin: "urning phosphorus produces 800-1,000 degrees centigrade heat.
Scattered phosphorus particles go on consuming themselves and deepen burn wounds." Next,
chemical compounds "create a chemical burn, like an acid, drawing water from the cells. This process generates great pain in the nervous system." Finally, white phosphorus compounds oxygenate and penetrate "the blood stream and white blood cells in the dermis, subdermis, and deeper skin layers." This creates what he calls an "organic toxicity [that] blocks off all blood circulation with the burn area."
It wasn't just medical professionals noting the brutal effects of white phosphorus. A U.S serviceperson, at the height of the Vietnam War, remarked, "We sure are pleased with those backroom boys at Dow. The original product wasn't so hot-if the gooks were quick they could scrape it off. So the boys started adding polystyrene-now it sticks like **** to a blanket. But then if the gooks jumped under water it stopped burning, so they started adding Willy Peter so's to make it burn better. It'll even burn under water now. And one drop is enough; it'll keep on burning right down to the bone so they die anyway from phosphorus poisoning."
This is what our military and political leaders currently define as a "potent psychological weapon?" These are the actions that citizens of empire are to support and legitimize, even if tacitly, in the name of spreading democracy and securing our own nebulous borders?
No, this is not about our national feelings of moral fortitude. This is about civilians and "enemies" alike having chemicals dropped on them like rain and their skin bubbling, melting, wasting away with no way to scrape off the pain of oxidizing phosphorus and no way to cauterize the slow, painful melting into the nervous system and bloodstream. No, for those getting "smoked out of their holes," there is very little, if anything, psychological about Willy Peter.
Danny Mayer is a PhD student at the University of Kentucky.
International War Crimes & Criminals
Weapons page
Home Page
PJWhitfield
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I'll go with the pope on this one. Stay out of it.
NDFan4Life
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Direct link between Assad and gas attack elusive for U.S.
(Reuters) - With the United States threatening to attack Syria, U.S. and allied intelligence services are still trying to work out who ordered the poison gas attack on rebel-held neighborhoods near Damascus.
No direct link to President Bashar al-Assad or his inner circle has been publicly demonstrated, and some U.S. sources say intelligence experts are not sure whether the Syrian leader knew of the attack before it was launched or was only informed about it afterward.
While U.S. officials say Assad is responsible for the chemical weapons strike even if he did not directly order it, they have not been able to fully describe a chain of command for the August 21 attack in the Ghouta area east of the Syrian capital.
It is one of the biggest gaps in U.S. understanding of the incident, even as Congress debates whether to launch limited strikes on Assad's forces in retaliation.
After wrongly claiming that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction before the 2003 U.S. invasion, the U.S. intelligence community, along with the Obama administration, are trying to build as solid a case as they can about what it says was a sarin nerve gas attack that killed over 1,400 people.
The Syrian government, backed by Russia, blames Sunni rebels for the gas attack. Russia says Washington has not provided convincing proof that Assad's troops carried out the attack and called it a "provocation" by rebel forces hoping to encourage a military response by the United States.
Identifying Syrian commanders or leaders as those who gave an order to fire rockets into the Sunni Muslim areas could help Obama convince a war-weary American public and skeptical members of Congress to back limited strikes against Assad.
But penetrating the secretive Syrian government is tough, especially as it fights a chaotic civil war for its survival.
"Decision-making at high levels within foreign governments is always a difficult intelligence target. Typically small numbers of people are involved, operational security is high, and penetration - through either human or technical means - is hard," said Paul Pillar, a former CIA expert on the Middle East.
One possible link between the gas attack and Assad's inner circle is the Syrian government body that is responsible for producing chemical weapons, U.S. and allied security sources say.
Personnel associated with the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Council (SSRC), which has direct ties to Assad's entourage, were likely involved in preparing munitions in the days before the attack, they say.
A declassified French intelligence report describes a unit of the SSRC, known by the code name "Branch 450", which it says is in charge of filling rockets or shells with chemical munitions in general.
U.S. and European security sources say this unit was likely involved in mixing chemicals for the August 21 attack and also may have played a more extensive role in preparing for it and carrying it out.
"BEST EVIDENCE"
Bruce Riedel, a former senior U.S. intelligence expert on the region and sometime advisor to the Obama White House, said that intelligence about the SSRC's alleged role is the most telling proof the United States has at hand.
"The best evidence linking the regime to the attack at a high level is the involvement of SSRC, the science center that created the (chemical weapons) program and manages it. SSRC works for the President's office and reports to him," Riedel said.
U.S. officials say Amr Armanazi, a Syrian official identified as SSRC director in a State Department sanctions order a year ago, was not directly involved.
Much of the U.S. claim that Assad is responsible was initially based on reports from witnesses, non-governmental groups and hours of YouTube videos.
U.S. officials have not presented any evidence to the public of scientific samples or intelligence information proving that sarin gas was used or that the Syrian government used it.
The United States has also not named any Syrian commanders it thinks gave the green light to fire gas-***** rockets into Ghouta.
But U.S. and allied security sources say they believe that Syrian military units responsible for the areas that were attacked were under heavy pressure from top commanders to wipe out a stubborn rebel presence there so government troops could redeploy to other trouble spots, including the city of Aleppo.
An analysis by the Congressional Research Service, a branch of the Library of Congress, reported that a declassified U.S. government paper summarizing intelligence findings concludes that Syrian government officials were "witting and directed" the gas attack. But the evidence of who ordered it was not watertight, the analysis said.
The findings were partly based on intercepted communications "involving a senior official intimately familiar with the offensive" which "confirmed that chemical weapons were used by the regime," it said.
As more information has been collected and analyzed, early theories about the attack have largely been dismissed, U.S. and allied security sources said.
Reports that Assad's brother, Maher, a general who commands an elite Republican Guard unit and a crack Syrian army armored division, gave the order to use chemicals have not been substantiated, U.S. sources said. Some U.S. sources now believe Maher Assad did not order the attack and was not directly involved.
Direct link between Assad and gas attack elusive for U.S. | Reuters
(Reuters) - With the United States threatening to attack Syria, U.S. and allied intelligence services are still trying to work out who ordered the poison gas attack on rebel-held neighborhoods near Damascus.
No direct link to President Bashar al-Assad or his inner circle has been publicly demonstrated, and some U.S. sources say intelligence experts are not sure whether the Syrian leader knew of the attack before it was launched or was only informed about it afterward.
While U.S. officials say Assad is responsible for the chemical weapons strike even if he did not directly order it, they have not been able to fully describe a chain of command for the August 21 attack in the Ghouta area east of the Syrian capital.
It is one of the biggest gaps in U.S. understanding of the incident, even as Congress debates whether to launch limited strikes on Assad's forces in retaliation.
After wrongly claiming that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction before the 2003 U.S. invasion, the U.S. intelligence community, along with the Obama administration, are trying to build as solid a case as they can about what it says was a sarin nerve gas attack that killed over 1,400 people.
The Syrian government, backed by Russia, blames Sunni rebels for the gas attack. Russia says Washington has not provided convincing proof that Assad's troops carried out the attack and called it a "provocation" by rebel forces hoping to encourage a military response by the United States.
Identifying Syrian commanders or leaders as those who gave an order to fire rockets into the Sunni Muslim areas could help Obama convince a war-weary American public and skeptical members of Congress to back limited strikes against Assad.
But penetrating the secretive Syrian government is tough, especially as it fights a chaotic civil war for its survival.
"Decision-making at high levels within foreign governments is always a difficult intelligence target. Typically small numbers of people are involved, operational security is high, and penetration - through either human or technical means - is hard," said Paul Pillar, a former CIA expert on the Middle East.
One possible link between the gas attack and Assad's inner circle is the Syrian government body that is responsible for producing chemical weapons, U.S. and allied security sources say.
Personnel associated with the Syrian Scientific Studies and Research Council (SSRC), which has direct ties to Assad's entourage, were likely involved in preparing munitions in the days before the attack, they say.
A declassified French intelligence report describes a unit of the SSRC, known by the code name "Branch 450", which it says is in charge of filling rockets or shells with chemical munitions in general.
U.S. and European security sources say this unit was likely involved in mixing chemicals for the August 21 attack and also may have played a more extensive role in preparing for it and carrying it out.
"BEST EVIDENCE"
Bruce Riedel, a former senior U.S. intelligence expert on the region and sometime advisor to the Obama White House, said that intelligence about the SSRC's alleged role is the most telling proof the United States has at hand.
"The best evidence linking the regime to the attack at a high level is the involvement of SSRC, the science center that created the (chemical weapons) program and manages it. SSRC works for the President's office and reports to him," Riedel said.
U.S. officials say Amr Armanazi, a Syrian official identified as SSRC director in a State Department sanctions order a year ago, was not directly involved.
Much of the U.S. claim that Assad is responsible was initially based on reports from witnesses, non-governmental groups and hours of YouTube videos.
U.S. officials have not presented any evidence to the public of scientific samples or intelligence information proving that sarin gas was used or that the Syrian government used it.
The United States has also not named any Syrian commanders it thinks gave the green light to fire gas-***** rockets into Ghouta.
But U.S. and allied security sources say they believe that Syrian military units responsible for the areas that were attacked were under heavy pressure from top commanders to wipe out a stubborn rebel presence there so government troops could redeploy to other trouble spots, including the city of Aleppo.
An analysis by the Congressional Research Service, a branch of the Library of Congress, reported that a declassified U.S. government paper summarizing intelligence findings concludes that Syrian government officials were "witting and directed" the gas attack. But the evidence of who ordered it was not watertight, the analysis said.
The findings were partly based on intercepted communications "involving a senior official intimately familiar with the offensive" which "confirmed that chemical weapons were used by the regime," it said.
As more information has been collected and analyzed, early theories about the attack have largely been dismissed, U.S. and allied security sources said.
Reports that Assad's brother, Maher, a general who commands an elite Republican Guard unit and a crack Syrian army armored division, gave the order to use chemicals have not been substantiated, U.S. sources said. Some U.S. sources now believe Maher Assad did not order the attack and was not directly involved.
Direct link between Assad and gas attack elusive for U.S. | Reuters
NDFan4Life
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I did answer your questions, you didn't like my answer.
And I like you so don't start no $hit with me good sir
LOL!
Being an internet tough guy doesn't become you, Bob.
kmoose
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The use of Sarin gas definitely violates the Geneva Convention!
Polish Leppy 22
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Rasmussen polls show 51% of Americans oppose military action in Syria and 36% favor. Looks like obamacare numbers.
B
Buster Bluth
Guest
There is oil in Libya, not in Syria. Libya was governed by a dictator who attacked Americans, Syria is governed by a dictator who hasn't. Libya was isolated in the world, Syria is a puppet of Russia and Iran. Libya happened before Syria, and we've learned lessons from what happens when you behead a government and let the local Muslims have at it.
IE polls shows 85% of posters oppose military action in Syria and 15% favor. People are wondering how Bob voted 9 times.
BobD
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Donald Rumsfeld, John McCain and both George Bush's are secret members. They each voted twice. I'm Dick Cheney
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39% of Americans Support Punishing Syria For Chemical Weapons
39% of Americans Support Punishing Syria For Chemical Weapons
CNN Chart on Crossfire 9/9/13
"Support For U.S. Wars" ( just before action started)
Iraq 2003 75%
Afghan 2001 84%
Gulf 1990 74%
Poll data from USAToday/Gallup, CNN/Time
39% of Americans Support Punishing Syria For Chemical Weapons
CNN Chart on Crossfire 9/9/13
"Support For U.S. Wars" ( just before action started)
Iraq 2003 75%
Afghan 2001 84%
Gulf 1990 74%
Poll data from USAToday/Gallup, CNN/Time
Syrian Parliament Letter To The US House Of Representatives – An important document being censored by the US press
Syrian Parliament Letter To The US House Of Representatives – An important document being censored by the US press | The Top Information Post
Syrian Parliament Letter To The US House Of Representatives – An important document being censored by the US press | The Top Information Post
U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY TOLD LAVROV HIS COMMENTS ABOUT SYRIA AVERTING U.S. STRIKE BY TURNING OVER CHEMICAL WEAPONS WERE RHETORICAL, U.S. OFFICIAL SAYS
Turn off the caps lock and look at the current news.
Obama: 'Breakthrough' is possible on Syria - CNN.com
By Ashley Killough, CNN
updated 7:27 PM EDT, Mon September 9, 2013
Censored?
Same letter sent to British Parliament. I read it more than a week ago.
NYTimes, USAToday, ABC News, Tucson News.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/30/world/middleeast/syria-britain.html
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BangbangNDLarry
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I hope our country is getting its Frequent War Club Card punched because if it is this next one with Syria should be free.
(stolen from some guy's twitter but I don't know how to post the original from this iPad)
I dont care if you stole it. It's still pretty darn clever, and in a sick ironic sense sadly true.
BobD
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Stalin was an idiot. This is probably the only correct statement he ever made and it would apply to Russia right now.
If any foreign minister begins to defend to the death a 'peace conference,' you can be sure his government has already placed its orders for new battleships and airplanes.
~Joseph Stalin
If any foreign minister begins to defend to the death a 'peace conference,' you can be sure his government has already placed its orders for new battleships and airplanes.
~Joseph Stalin
connor_in
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