Recruiter or Coach?

[FightingIrishLover7]

Tony Alford yet again

Alford is a great recruiter...

But I really like Brian Pollian as a recruiter too, it's still sad to see him go.

 

[IanBr22]

Stanford is putting together a nice class as well.

 

[jason_h537]

Alford is a great recruiter...

But I really like Brian Pollian as a recruiter too, it's still sad to see him go.

Ditto. I sure miss Polian recruiting my home state

 

[jason_h537]

Awesome get. Looks like a big time player and the IrishIllistrated staff loves him. I am a bit worried with how quickly he jumped on board. Hopefully he stays solid. Still great news. Nice to see he is buddies with Prestwood and Lynch too

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

What good is a "great recruiter" (Polian) if you can't coach a single special team to save your job? He was at Buffalo when Buffalo was the worst team in the country.

A silver spoon can only get you so far.

 

[jason_h537]

I bet if you check most staffs there are coaches who are there stricktly fro recruiting. Sure its great to have guys like Alford who can do both but they are a rare breed.

How good of a coach is John Blake when UNC has 2 dline coaches but he is considered one of the best. Ed Orgeron isnt exactly the greatest coach in the world, he was surrounded by some talented guys on the USC defensive staff How bout Brian White from Florida?

Polian had an eye for talent and could outrecruit some of the best.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

And still coached some of the worst special teams in the history of ND.

 

[bornready85]

And still coached some of the worst special teams in the history of ND.

Isn't our new special teams coordinator also the DL coach? They could have kept Polian on the staff as a recruiter if they wanted to IMO.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

And lost games. What am I missing here folks? Recruiting is politics, perception, and marketing. What good is grabbing a "perceived" well advertised athlete if you can't win a game? Hell, let's bring back Willingham. The media was all over the place pressuring ND to hire a "successful" minority. News to you guys: We're all mutts.

We all know that the media and public perception win games. Even if the coach loses and is awful (as was Polian), if public perception is that he was a winner then that is the absolute truth. In my opinion, and based on stars, we were undefeated last year. Ergo, that is the truth.

Win games and shut the hell up.

 

[bornready85]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Elston(sp?)runs the special teams. They could have retained Polian as an 'assistant" special teams coach but his priority would have been recruiting. They would not have "lost games" because of this.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Elston(sp?)runs the special teams. They could have retained Polian as an 'assistant" special teams coach but his priority would have been recruiting. They would not have "lost games" because of this.

Respectfully my friend, why don't you understand what I am saying? A coach that proves he can't do his job on the field, which is measurable based on wins, losses, and the ability of the defense to make a tackle, or the kicker to kick a PAT, or the Kickoff team to stop the opponent before the 20... AND, although this coach's "perceived" greatness based on OPINION, and his daddy's job as an NFL big shot and his "perceived" ability to attract "perceived" 5 star athletes that still result in pathetic play on the field...

You say they"would not have lost games." But they did. In horrendous fashion. Good luck to Polian.

 

[WabashFalcon]

Respectfully my friend, why don't you understand what I am saying? A coach that proves he can't do his job on the field, which is measurable based on wins, losses, and the ability of the defense to make a fucking tackle, or the kicker to kick a PAT, or the Kickoff team to stop the opponent before the 20... AND, although this coach's "perceived" greatness based on OPINION, and his daddy's job as an NFL big shot and his "perceived" ability to attract "perceived" 5 star athletes that still result in pathetic play on the field...

You say they"would not have lost games." But they did. In horrendous fashion. Good riddance and good luck to Polian.

WOAHHHHHHHHHH BAMBI!!!! Relax big guy! Here's a sugar cube... maybe a salt lick? Good boy....

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

Then quit threatening to eat me.

(But ok, you stopped me...)

This is just a perception.

 

[BGIF]

When Vinnie Cerrato was a Full Time Recruiter (no coaching duties) he was making Lou Holtz an all world coach (no Lou didn't win any NC's anywhere else, did he) the other head coaches got jealous. So like they did when Weis and Saban were walking the high schools halls meeting recruits from coast to coast and having success in recruiting, the other coaches passed a rule in the NCAA that all assistent coaches must be full time "on the field coach" position coach. There would no longer be nominal "coaches" that were full time recruiters. The NCAA also reduced the number of assistant coaches to preclude the luxury of a full time recruiter masquerading as an assistant.

Teams today have Recruiting Coordinators but they must coach a position.

Polian was a good recruiter but as a coach, at least at ND, whatever position he "coached" struggled, Special Teams, LBs, DBs, it didn't matter what position he was penciled in at. I don't know what his problem was but but he didn't cut it on the playing field. The proof was in the performance of the players he instructed. After 5 years Special Teams should have been a strength, it wasn't. Nor was any other position he coached.

Kelly made it clear when he took the job as ND head coach he wanted coaches who could recruit and that were capable of teaching football to those they recruited. Polian didn't get asked to stay for an obvious deficency. That was Kelly's decision.

Q.E.D.

=======================================================

N.B. Keep your urinating contests out of the Recruit Profiles or they will just be deleted. Repeat offenders will get time off from their keyboards.

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

N.B. Keep your urinating contests out of the Recruit Profiles or they will just be deleted. Repeat offenders will get time off from their keyboards.

Not pissing on this forum Boss. Just what I think is a good point of discussion. I hope I don't join Johnnykilz as the U.S. most wanted. I know who ended my tuxedo kitties' 3rd life.

It was ACamp.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Elston(sp?)runs the special teams. They could have retained Polian as an 'assistant" special teams coach but his priority would have been recruiting. They would not have "lost games" because of this.

I don't think Kelly had any interest in keeping Polian. If he did, I still think there would have been a big issue with numbers in staff. NCAA restricts every team on that at a certain number of full time staff members. Kelly went in the direction of having himself and Molnar running the offense and also having (literally) 2 linebacker coaches in Diaco as DC and Cooks.

My guess is Cooks got the job because of his recruiting ties to Texas, so they gave Elston DL (easiest position to coach in football) and special teams.



Polian was described by Weis as a "bulldog" in recruiting and we will miss that, but let's not forget the flip side. Randy Hart is a great guy and we all liked his energy, but let's call a spade a spade. He didn't have any recruiting victores worth noting. Second, we lost Jon friggin Tenuta. He couldn't recruit his own sons to play at ND if given the chance. That guy despises recruiting.

 

[johnnykillz]

Not pissing on this forum Boss. Just what I think is a good point of discussion. I hope I don't join Johnnykilz as the U.S. most wanted. I know who ended my tuxedo kitties' 3rd life.

It was ACamp.

I resent that. Just another tagged phrase going to the mainframe. Damnit.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Guys, yo can talk about it until you are blue in the face, but the bottom line is, and BK had stated this repeatedly when he was building a staff, that BK wanted coaches that could do both...coach AND recruit. He wasn't going to have anyone on his staff that couldn't be a teacher and a guy that could sell ND to recruits. That's why it took him longer than most wanted him to when he put together his staff.

BK wanted guys he was comfortable with and that could do both aforementioned things. Like Neutered said, it was painfully obvious that Polian couldn't coach, and BK wasn't down with that.

Now, some head coaches will take on guys who are great coaches but aren't necessarily good recruiters, and others will pick up the slack for them (i.e. Verducci and Hart last year at ND, or Papa Kiffin at SC, who really doesn't travel but does talk to recruits). And some coaches will have A+ recruiters on staff that aren't the greatest of coaches. (Incidentally, those are the guys who are usually 'me' guys who want the head coaches to offer 'their guys' and take too much pride in their recruiting wins, often splintering relationships on staffs). And it works out for them.

But BK wanted guys that were adept at both, and that's what he feels we have. We'll see...

 

[Rocket89]

Cincy had great special teams.

And we're recruiting just fine now.

Let's move on....

 

[Ben E.]

my vote is for the recruiter! USC is proof that it doesnt matter what system you run its who you have running it. no one can tell me from series to series what pete carrol was trying to do on offense the last 5 years. his horses where just faster than everybody elses and that made up for his incompetent play calling!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

my vote is for the recruiter! USC is proof that it doesnt matter what system you run its who you have running it. no one can tell me from series to series what pete carrol was trying to do on offense the last 5 years. his horses where just faster than everybody elses and that made up for his incompetent play calling!

So if ND and Polian has recruited so well, why can't they beat SC?

 

[TerryTate]

So if ND and Polian has recruited so well, why can't they beat SC?

^ This.

 

[johnnykillz]

This is such a moot point. Recruiting can't win football games. Coaching wins football games.

Does Utah, TCU, Boise State, or Cincinatti ring a bell?

 

[nd1]

it really doesn't what talent u bring in if u can not coach and teach them when and where to be. you stil have to have talent but that talent has to grow and get better and thats been nd problem. they bring in good talent but it doesn't get much better.

 

[Ben E.]

So if ND and Polian has recruited so well, why can't they beat SC?

do you think polian was out recruiting petey and ed oregon? i dont.

also, i dont believe charlie was a great recruiter, he was a good recruiter on the o side of the ball but was substandard defensive recruiter. TEO and NIX aside of course. how far BK takes ND will depend on his ability to get defensive talent to south bend not the other side of the ball. as far as developing talent is concerned obviously you have to do that, that said, recruiting full(25 scholies) top ten classes every year creates competition and that goes a long way in development imo.

imo its 60/40% recruiting to coaching, there are exceptions to the "rule", ie cinci but the year in year out top dogs(UF,BAMA,USC,OSU,ETC) are just full of the best players. i think this applies to all college sports just look at calipari and coach k as it pertains to consistant success. roy at unc had an average stable by most programs standards this year and did jack shit and he is supposed to be a great coach!

 

[NeuteredDoomer]

do you think polian was out recruiting petey and ed oregon? i dont.

also, i dont believe charlie was a great recruiter, he was a good recruiter on the o side of the ball but was substandard defensive recruiter. TEO and NIX aside of course. how far BK takes ND will depend on his ability to get defensive talent to south bend not the other side of the ball. as far as developing talent is concerned obviously you have to do that, that said, recruiting full(25 scholies) top ten classes every year creates competition and that goes a long way in development imo.

imo its 60/40% recruiting to coaching, there are exceptions to the "rule", ie cinci but the year in year out top dogs(UF,BAMA,USC,OSU,ETC) are just full of the best players. i think this applies to all college sports just look at calipari and coach k as it pertains to consistant success. roy at unc had an average stable by most programs standards this year and did jack shit and he is supposed to be a great coach!

You could be right my friend, but if I were the guy hiring, I would take a proven great coach and teacher with good athletes over a bad coach with superior athletes.

But I'm just a guy sitting behind a comp.

 

[Ben E.]

You could be right my friend, but if I were the guy hiring, I would take a proven great coach and teacher with good athletes over a bad coach with superior athletes.

But I'm just a guy sitting behind a comp.

yes, if i am hiring i want a mix of both for sure! i think USC could have been much more successfull with a better HC than petey! realy if you think about it all the talent they had and yet every other year they would lose to a team like oregon state!

but i am no expert...just a guy sitting behind a computer just like you!

 

[jason_h537]

This is such a moot point. Recruiting can't win football games. Coaching wins football games.

Does Utah, TCU, Boise State, or Cincinatti ring a bell?

Sorry holmes but those teams aint winning National Championships. Kelly can win 10 games every year for 10 years but at ND he will have a large number of fans saying can him cuz he cant win it all. You need both.

Alford is a rare breed of coach who can do both and i got high hopes for Martin and Warringer(sp). Polian had something speciial that i and others feel was worth keeping. Obviously he lacked in coaching but other coaches could have helped like they do at alot of the SEC schools or other top programs. That is my opinion and you all know i love giving my opinion

I dont knwo about the pissing contest line but good call on the new thread

 

[NDinL.A.]

You could be right my friend, but if I were the guy hiring, I would take a proven great coach and teacher with good athletes over a bad coach with superior athletes.

But I'm just a guy sitting behind a comp.

Yup. Bottom line is if you want to win, you have to have both...great athletes and great coaching. Bene is right...you're not wining consistently against the top teams without talent. You can be a Boise St and upset one top team in between playing a bunch of pancakes, but you couldn't go undefeated in the Pac 10, unless you upgrade the talent that can compete EVERY SINGLE WEEK against legit programs.

You want decent athletes and great coaching, you get what you had with Cinci last year...great regular season, blown up by a team in FL that had better athletes and very good coaching (painful as it is for me to say...Urban Meyer can coach).

You got great athletes with bad coaching? You get Ron Zook at FL and Paul Hackett at SC. But when you get them both...athletes AND coaching, well, you have Alabama '09, FL '08, SC '04, etc etc.

Let's hope we get it both under BK. I think we will (then again I backed CW for years, sooooooooo......)

 

[jason_h537]

Let's hope we get it both under BK. I think we will (then again I backed CW for years, sooooooooo......)

I still think you gotta give Kelly a pass for now because he does have to rebuild relationships and adjust to recruiting nationally aginst the elite programs but you cant expect him to just "coach up rkg's" to a national championship