Racism

[jprue24]

I agree that’s wrong. It this where we educate each other and not use it as a “layup/gotcha” moment.

Turtle is not interested in being educated.

 

[Blazers46]

White people make songs chart toppers.

Sure but one particular genre of music doesn’t define white culture nor do white people claim that it’s deeply rooted in their culture as much as Rap/hip hop.

 

[Blazers46]

Turtle is not interested in being educated.

So let’s fuck his ass up. That will learn him.

 

[TorontoGold]

I agree that’s wrong. It this where we educate each other and not use it as a “layup/gotcha” moment.

This is why you're in a different class than Sea Turtle.

At the same time, a grown adult shouldn't be making statements like that because at this point in his life he should know that racist laws were in place all over North America at some point in time. The onus of education is on him as he's an adult, if he was a child then education is the route - but a grown ass man shouldn't be saying this shit.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I just wanted to see you show the same level of frustration that you have for GI41 that should be placed on Sea Turtle's statements.

When you make comments like "you guys need to move on" you insert yourself as the person who is to appear as the neutral observer, but when Sea Turtle steps over the line into the racist territory - silence. GI41 uses less refined language, you're upset. You can see how that would give the appearance of unequal outrage from a nuanced observer that is above the fray. Why is it so hard to just call him out and say that he is wrong? Literally any time I say something that you disagree with, I get a response, Sea Turtle says "Only the SOUTH had laws against black people" the biggest lay up of all time to say "you're wrong" and you instead want to say nuance is needed. Of course nuance is needed, but that can only happen when objectively false things are pointed out and corrected.

Go look at how much I post compared to you and others. I disagree with most things that you post. LOL I rarely respond. If I did respond every time I disagree with you, I would have 100,000 posts.

"You guys need to move on" was directed at both sides, because the conversation was going nowhere. Just both sides screaming the same thing over and over. Yet you take that as me coming down on you????? I posted a length response pointing out areas where both sides could do better at addressing the nuances.

Again, you demanded a response from me! I had literally said nothing regarding this latest racism issue except saying I was going to ignore 41. That announcement happened to come in this thread because the culmination of frequent similar responses in all kinds of political threads that had nothing to do with racism pushed me over the edge. His responses are so over the top to anyone who disagrees with him.

 

[jprue24]

So let’s fuck his ass up. That will learn him.

Lol, there is no learning him, only pointing at him.

Again, I can't tell if he's trolling. I am going to assume he is not.

 

[TorontoGold]

Go look at how much I post compared to you and others. I disagree with most things that you post. LOL I rarely respond. If I did respond every time I disagree with you, I would have 100,000 posts.

"You guys need to move on" was directed at both sides, because the conversation was going nowhere. Just both sides screaming the same thing over and over. Yet you take that as me coming down on you????? I posted a length response pointing out areas where both sides could do better at addressing the nuances.

Again, you demanded a response from me! I had literally said nothing regarding this latest racism issue except saying I was going to ignore 41. That announcement happened to come in this thread because the culmination of frequent similar responses in all kinds of political threads that had nothing to do with racism pushed me over the edge. His responses are so over the top to anyone who disagrees with him.

No, I didn't take that as "coming down on me" - I took it as a both sides are wrong let's move on. When Sea Turtle was getting rightfully called out, but never admitted to being incorrect, how should someone move on when he continually said just flat out wrong/racist things?

I don't see how a "both sides" type discussion is needed when you have someone saying objectively false things. If it was Blazers or #1 having a discussion then sure there would be an avenue to have a discussion on the nuances on both sides. But, where do we need to do better when calling out Sea Turtle's objectively wrong things? Please I'm all ears.

I demanded a response because I don't know how someone can be upset with his crassness but not at the content of what Sea Turtle was posting. I guess I just need to accept that people value things differently, that's on me.

 

[Blazers46]

This is why you're in a different class than Sea Turtle.

At the same time, a grown adult shouldn't be making statements like that because at this point in his life he should know that racist laws were in place all over North America at some point in time. The onus of education is on him as he's an adult, if he was a child then education is the route - but a grown ass man shouldn't be saying this shit.

Awww, thanks man. I think this is the nicest thing you have ever said to me. Let’s be friends. 😃

 

[SeekNDestroy]

Awww, thanks man. I think this is the nicest thing you have ever said to me. Let’s be friends. 😃

I just wanted to take this opportunity to congratulate you on overcoming your humble beginnings and becoming a highly successful person. In your case, nature overcame nurture.

 

[Sea Turtle]

So many conversations detailed by some “gotcha” moment by people trying to win arguments. Disagreeing is racist.

Something worth nothing is the rap/hip hop “culture”. For the most part black people see rap as large part of their culture. Just listen to 24 hours of rap music and write a book report on what you heard and get back with your findings and tell me about black culture. Music is powerful. Most people have an “anthem” or “fight song”. In the inner city rap IS THE CULTURE. I listen to rap because it’s pumps me up for a workout, there are people that make it their anthem for life.

You said it so much more eloquently than I could. I need to be more nuanced. I tend to be a bit crass and show a tough love approach to life because nobody is going to help you in life. I grew up dirt poor and was bullied relentlessly for it.

I may be wrong about laws that were on the books 100 or 50 years ago in the north. My apologies. The original point was the toxic culture of the current urban black communities. The mantra that they live by. And the fact that there are no laws now or in decades that are preventing black advancement. I also pointed out other communities have also had it bad in this country and elsewhere.

Toronto wanted a fight. He goaded me all day yesterday into it. I tried to let it die down. Finally i thought, maybe he does want to talk about the issues that are plaguing our cities.

Nope, in typical Toronto fashion he read my posts looking for anything that he could twist and use against me. He wanted to play gotcha. He hates me because of my politics and that I'm not afraid to challenge his viewpoints. He can't just disagree with me. Or say 'get bent, youre wrong'. I have to be destroyed, in his mind. Its why, like a junior high school girl, he tried to win ab2 over to his side and isolate me from everyone else and is STILL doing it. When he and others woukdnt play ball(because hes not dealing with 6th grade girls)he evidently threw a fit to the point that he was being laughed at. 'Ditch her and come sit a my lunch table. We wear pink on wednsdays.' He's a smug know it all that has to be the smartest guy in the room.

After our initial dust up a long time ago, I tried to be cordial with him. But he finally went too far last night.

Hes going to tell me about poverty? I was chronically sick as a kid because the inside of my bedroom window would freeze over during winter because our dumpy single wide trailer had little insulation.

He's going to tell me the Jewish experience? I married one. I know more about it than he ever will.

He's going to tell me about being 'on brand' about Jewish women being used as sex slaves while the rest were gassed and tossed in furnaces? My daughter was sexually assaulted and as a little detail so egeryone knows i didn't just make it up: she used to love the Beatles. She still can't listen to them to this day because 'Strawberry Fields' just happened to be playing when her friends father attacked her.

He's going to tell me about hip hop? I had to tell him it was a culture. Not music, per se.


Again, thank you for distilling my clumsy thoughts and posts about my issues with urban culture. Unlike Toronto, I'm not right about everything and I do have faults.

 

[jprue24]

You said it so much more eloquently than I could. I need to be more nuanced. I tend to be a bit crass and show a tough love approach to life because nobody is going to help you in life. I grew up dirt poor and was bullied relentlessly for it.

I may be wrong about laws that were on the books 100 or 50 years ago in the north. My apologies. The original point was the toxic culture of the current urban black communities. The mantra that they live by. And the fact that there are no laws now or in decades that are preventing black advancement. I also pointed out other communities have also had it bad in this country and elsewhere.

Toronto wanted a fight. He goaded me all day yesterday into it. I tried to let it die down. Finally i thought, maybe he does want to talk about the issues that are plaguing our cities.

Nope, in typical Toronto fashion he read my posts looking for anything that he could twist and use against me. He wanted to play gotcha. He hates me because of my politics and that I'm not afraid to challenge his viewpoints. He can't just disagree with me. Or say 'get bent, youre wrong'. I have to be destroyed, in his mind. Its why, like a junior high school girl, he tried to win ab2 over to his side and isolate me from everyone else and is STILL doing it. 'Ditch her and come sit a my lunch table. We wear pink on wednsdays.'He's a smug know it all that has to be the smartest guy in the room.

After our initial dust up a long time ago, I tried to be cordial with him. But he finally went too far last night.

Hes going to tell me about poverty? I was chronically sick as a kid because the inside of my bedroom window would freeze over during winter because our dumpy single wide trailer had little insulation.

He's going to tell me the Jewish experience? I married one. I know more about it than he ever will.

He's going to tell me about being 'on brand' about Jewish women being used as sex slaves while the rest were gassed and tossed in furnaces? My daughter was sexually assaulted and as a little detail so egeryone knows i didn't just make it up: she used to love the Beatles. She still can't listen to them to this day because 'Strawberry Fields' just happened to be playing when her friends father attacked her.

He's going to tell me about hip hop? I had to tell him it was a culture. Not music, per se.


Again, thank you for distilling my clumsy thoughts and posts about my issues with urban culture. Unlike Toronto, I'm not right about everything and I do have faults.

They always turn themselves into victims when they get called out.

We should be different than the rest of the world because we were founded on the notion that we are different than the rest of the world … the self-evident truth that all men are created equal. These are sacred words in this country that you seem unable to wrap your head around.

And we have lived by that for 160 years. I can't help what happened before that.

^^^ this right here is the comment, that informs you about Turtle. Does he really believe that structurally, once the 13th Amendment was ratified, everyone was immediately on the same footing? That as soon as the military left the former slave states, those states didn't immediately start to oppress black people? That the subsequent generation didn't undertake a massive white washing, the "Lost Cause", of the history of the civil war? That black people were treated as second class citizens even after we had to pass laws in the 60s to try and stop it? That a simple look at the sentencing differences between cocaine and crack might make a curious person ask why they are so different when the drug is the same.


He is either incredibly stupid or a bigot. At the moment, I don't think he is stupid.


Big·ot

noun

1. a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

 

[Irish#1]

Go look at how much I post compared to you and others. I disagree with most things that you post. LOL I rarely respond. If I did respond every time I disagree with you, I would have 100,000 posts.

"You guys need to move on" was directed at both sides, because the conversation was going nowhere. Just both sides screaming the same thing over and over. Yet you take that as me coming down on you????? I posted a length response pointing out areas where both sides could do better at addressing the nuances.

Again, you demanded a response from me! I had literally said nothing regarding this latest racism issue except saying I was going to ignore 41. That announcement happened to come in this thread because the culmination of frequent similar responses in all kinds of political threads that had nothing to do with racism pushed me over the edge. His responses are so over the top to anyone who disagrees with him.

Your silence is part of the problem!

 

[ab2cmiller]

Your silence is part of the problem!

You've unleashed the Kraken. I'm ready to go. LOL

 

[Irish#1]

They always turn themselves into victims when they get called out.




^^^ this right here is the comment, that informs you about Turtle. Does he really believe that structurally, once the 13th Amendment was ratified, everyone was immediately on the same footing? That as soon as the military left the former slave states, those states didn't immediately start to oppress black people? That the subsequent generation didn't undertake a massive white washing, the "Lost Cause", of the history of the civil war? That black people were treated as second class citizens even after we had to pass laws in the 60s to try and stop it? That a simple look at the sentencing differences between cocaine and crack might make a curious person ask why they are so different when the drug is the same.


He is either incredibly stupid or a bigot. At the moment, I don't think he is stupid.


Big·ot

noun

1. a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

I know that you're relatively new to the political threads, but do you know the one thing that has been a consistent in the political threads over the years? Whether we agree or disagree with the poster is the fact that we take their personal experiences that they share as the truth. Don't go there.

 

[TorontoGold]

You said it so much more eloquently than I could. I need to be more nuanced. I tend to be a bit crass and show a tough love approach to life because nobody is going to help you in life. I grew up dirt poor and was bullied relentlessly for it.

I may be wrong about laws that were on the books 100 or 50 years ago in the north. My apologies. The original point was the toxic culture of the current urban black communities. The mantra that they live by. And the fact that there are no laws now or in decades that are preventing black advancement. I also pointed out other communities have also had it bad in this country and elsewhere.

Toronto wanted a fight. He goaded me all day yesterday into it. I tried to let it die down. Finally i thought, maybe he does want to talk about the issues that are plaguing our cities.

Nope, in typical Toronto fashion he read my posts looking for anything that he could twist and use against me. He wanted to play gotcha. He hates me because of my politics and that I'm not afraid to challenge his viewpoints. He can't just disagree with me. Or say 'get bent, youre wrong'. I have to be destroyed, in his mind. Its why, like a junior high school girl, he tried to win ab2 over to his side and isolate me from everyone else and is STILL doing it. 'Ditch her and come sit a my lunch table. We wear pink on wednsdays.'He's a smug know it all that has to be the smartest guy in the room.

After our initial dust up a long time ago, I tried to be cordial with him. But he finally went too far last night.

Hes going to tell me about poverty? I was chronically sick as a kid because the inside of my bedroom window would freeze over during winter because our dumpy single wide trailer had little insulation.

He's going to tell me the Jewish experience? I married one. I know more about it than he ever will.

He's going to tell me about being 'on brand' about Jewish women being used as sex slaves while the rest were gassed and tossed in furnaces? My daughter was sexually assaulted and as a little detail so egeryone knows i didn't just make it up: she used to love the Beatles. She still can't listen to them to this day because 'Strawberry Fields' just happened to be playing when her friends father attacked her.

He's going to tell me about hip hop? I had to tell him it was a culture. Not music, per se.


Again, thank you for distilling my clumsy thoughts and posts about my issues with urban culture. Unlike Toronto, I'm not right about everything and I do have faults.

Out of respect for some here, my final thoughts.

1) Anecdotal evidence is the weakest form of evidence, my lived experiences don't mean shit and neither does anyone elses because what I've experienced does not account for a situation in aggregate.

2) If you are going to use anecdotal evidence it should be used in support of some sort of provable fact, ie if I tell you that I've always had humid summers in Toronto, and the evidence supports it then that makes sense. But to say that a community focuses on luxury goods too much when we know the black community has one of the lowest net household values is not based in fact.

3) My smugness or attitude is because I have a certain tolerable threshold for people that presumably graduated high school. There are certain things that are just are unacceptable for an adult to not know. It's like my dog shitting inside when I've had him for 8 years and trained him not to, of course I'm going to be upset if he shits on the carpet.

PS - If you wanted to make a pro-republican based argument I would start with the pre pandemic real wage growth of black american's under Trump's presidency. Employed full time: Median usual weekly real earnings: Wage and salary workers: 16 years and over: Black or African American A much better discussion would be had on what policies lead to that and how those can be continued to be implemented. Discussing that would be a lot stronger than "black culture" discussed by a bunch of white dudes.

 

[GoIrish41]

That's not really reparations. Those are ideas on fixing the current issues, but you did say you're not for cutting a check to anyone which answers the three questions. I appreciate you commenting.

I think the lack of responses says more than answering the questions.

Again … the only time I mentioned reparations is to explain that I am for policy and behavior changes. Although I take issue that fixing problems that exist is not “reparations.” That is literally the meaning of the word “repair,” is it not?

 

[jprue24]

I know that you're relatively new to the political threads, but do you know the one thing that has been a consistent in the political threads over the years? Whether we agree or disagree with the poster is the fact that we take their personal experiences that they share as the truth. Don't go there.

My comments towards members in here are ALWAYS based on what they say in here. If someone is complaining about how they and their bigoted views are being called out as them being mistreated, then they are playing the victim.

No one, including myself, is beyond criticism, judgement, praise, etc. for the beliefs they express.

 

[ab2cmiller]

You want to know why poor people stay poor? This is kind of insane. Forty-one percent (on average) of income is spent on "vices" for people making less than $30,000. I don't know what the percentages would look like for the black community specifically, but my assumption is that they would be close to these averages.

These Financial Vices Cost Americans More Than $2,400 Per Year | Bankrate

We all have our vices, but some are more costly than others. Bankrate surveyed more than 3,800 Americans and found how much money we're wasting annually on lottery tickets, alcoholic drinks, gambling and tobacco.

www.bankrate.com

Percent of annual income spent/wagered by those who engage in these vices:	Under $30,000	$30,000 to $49,999	$50,000 to $79,999	$80,000 and over
Lottery Tickets	13%	3%	1%	1%
Alcohol	11%	7%	3%	1%
Tobacco or ecigarette products	13%	6%	4%	1%
Gambling	4%	3%	5%	2%

 

[Irish#1]

rep·a·ra·tion
/ˌrepəˈrāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.
   "the courts required a convicted offender to make financial reparation to his victim"
   
   Similar:
   amends
   restitution
   redress
   compensation
   recompense
   repayment
   atonement
   indemnification
   indemnity
   damages
   solatium
   • the compensation for war damage paid by a defeated state.
     plural noun: reparations
     "the Treaty of Versailles imposed heavy reparations and restrictions on Germany"

 

[ab2cmiller]

Long ago I when I worked in Public Accounting, one of my clients was a Buy-Here Pay-Here used car lot. Probably about 60% of their employees were in collections or repossessions. Anyhow, the owner told me that almost every car they repossess is likely to contain 3 things. Lottery tickets, Cigarettes and empty alcohol cans.

 

[TorontoGold]

Long ago I when I worked in Public Accounting, one of my clients was a Buy-Here Pay-Here used car lot. Probably about 60% of their employees were in collections or repossessions. Anyhow, the owner told me that almost every car they repossess is likely to contain 3 things. Lottery tickets, Cigarettes and empty alcohol cans.

Man, we dropped a client because I got into a bit of a spat with the owner (no surprise to some here) they were providing high interest rate loans to people for cars at rates that went up to 39.99%! These were often on the most dogshit 6 year old cars. Told him it's borderline criminal, and he did not take kindly to me saying that lol. High interest predatory loaning on cars is criminal.

 

[jprue24]

You want to know why poor people stay poor? This is kind of insane. Forty-one percent (on average) of income is spent on "vices" for people making less than $30,000. I don't know what the percentages would look like for the black community specifically, but my assumption is that they would be close to these averages.

These Financial Vices Cost Americans More Than $2,400 Per Year | Bankrate

We all have our vices, but some are more costly than others. Bankrate surveyed more than 3,800 Americans and found how much money we're wasting annually on lottery tickets, alcoholic drinks, gambling and tobacco.

www.bankrate.com

Percent of annual income spent/wagered by those who engage in these vices:	Under $30,000	$30,000 to $49,999	$50,000 to $79,999	$80,000 and over
Lottery Tickets	13%	3%	1%	1%
Alcohol	11%	7%	3%	1%
Tobacco or ecigarette products	13%	6%	4%	1%
Gambling	4%	3%	5%	2%

Lottery has been called a tax on poor people since it's implementation.

I'd like to see this as the percentage of people at each income level, that spend money on these vices. Is this just showing us that untreated addiction is affordable when you have more money? Does it show that the mental stress of poverty makes people more likely to look for short-term relief?

There are many black people that lament the reality that there is a liquor store on "every corner" in there communities.

edit- clarity

 

[ab2cmiller]

Man, we dropped a client because I got into a bit of a spat with the owner (no surprise to some here) they were providing high interest rate loans to people for cars at rates that went up to 39.99%! These were often on the most dogshit 6 year old cars. Told him it's borderline criminal, and he did not take kindly to me saying that lol. High interest predatory loaning on cars is criminal.

Yes 39.99% is predatory. 20% is almost required to even turn a profit though when they have so many repossessions.

 

[jprue24]

rep·a·ra·tion
/ˌrepəˈrāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged.
   "the courts required a convicted offender to make financial reparation to his victim"
   
   Similar:
   amends
   restitution
   redress
   compensation
   recompense
   repayment
   atonement
   indemnification
   indemnity
   damages
   solatium
   • the compensation for war damage paid by a defeated state.
     plural noun: reparations
     "the Treaty of Versailles imposed heavy reparations and restrictions on Germany"

I have never called for that. Though they were promised "40 acres and a mule".

edit - I just realized this may not have been directed at me, I assumed, probably for a good reason, but now I'm not so sure. I guess this can just stand as my not thinking that reparations is not the best solution right now.

 

[TorontoGold]

Yes 39.99% is predatory. 20% is almost required to even turn a profit though when they have so many repossessions.

This likely would go against many of my leftist beliefs, but I think some people shouldn't feel entitled to owning a car. The attitude of "I need a car" has lead to so many people having their life destroyed over getting hooked on a predatory financing agreement.

 

[irishtrooper]

Out of respect for some here, my final thoughts.

1) Anecdotal evidence is the weakest form of evidence, my lived experiences don't mean shit and neither does anyone elses because what I've experienced does not account for a situation in aggregate.

2) If you are going to use anecdotal evidence it should be used in support of some sort of provable fact, ie if I tell you that I've always had humid summers in Toronto, and the evidence supports it then that makes sense. But to say that a community focuses on luxury goods too much when we know the black community has one of the lowest net household values is not based in fact.

3) My smugness or attitude is because I have a certain tolerable threshold for people that presumably graduated high school. There are certain things that are just are unacceptable for an adult to not know. It's like my dog shitting inside when I've had him for 8 years and trained him not to, of course I'm going to be upset if he shits on the carpet.

PS - If you wanted to make a pro-republican based argument I would start with the pre pandemic real wage growth of black american's under Trump's presidency. Employed full time: Median usual weekly real earnings: Wage and salary workers: 16 years and over: Black or African American A much better discussion would be had on what policies lead to that and how those can be continued to be implemented. Discussing that would be a lot stronger than "black culture" discussed by a bunch of white dudes.

Perhaps you should use proper grammar and punctuation prior to looking down your scholarly nose at the rest of the board

 

[Blazers46]

Long ago I when I worked in Public Accounting, one of my clients was a Buy-Here Pay-Here used car lot. Probably about 60% of their employees were in collections or repossessions. Anyhow, the owner told me that almost every car they repossess is likely to contain 3 things. Lottery tickets, Cigarettes and empty alcohol cans.

I had a very good friend that was a used car salesman. He’s probably one of the most successful used only in the area and I grew to not stand the dude. “No credit, bad credit”… he fully knows he’s goi g to sell most of his cars 2-3 times. It’s sickening.

 

[Blazers46]

I’ll end with this thought and then I have to attempt to hump my wife on Valentine’s Day.

Racism exists but I think a lot of classism gets confused for racism. White kids attend these poor schools as well. White kids live in these poor neighborhoods. White kids get stuck in the welfare cycle.

The barriers in poorer schools are school-wide, not color-wide. Same barriers that exist in inner cities exist for everyone in the inner city. Inner city has become synonymous with black but it’s very much every color on the color wheel.

 

[jprue24]

This likely would go against many of my leftist beliefs, but I think some people shouldn't feel entitled to owning a car. The attitude of "I need a car" has lead to so many people having their life destroyed over getting hooked on a predatory financing agreement.

I have some experience with this when I lived in the Phoenix. No usury laws when I was there in the mid-00s. I was 24, with bad credit, and I absolutely HAD to have a vehicle. I didn't ask for help because I'm stubborn (whaaat!?), arrogant (who could guess), and "I am capable of buying a car". So I took a cab to an auto mall.

Looking back I feel somewhat fortunate I got out of there with only a 22.5% rate

 

[jprue24]

I’ll end with this thought and then I have to attempt to hump my wife on Valentine’s Day.

Racism exists but I think a lot of classism gets confused for racism. White kids attend these poor schools as well. White kids live in these poor neighborhoods. White kids get stuck in the welfare cycle.

The barriers in poorer schools are school-wide, not color-wide. Same barriers that exist in inner cities exist for everyone in the inner city. Inner city has become synonymous with black but it’s very much every color on the color wheel.

If you haven't already, you may be interested in reading about intersectionality. It makes an effort to take all of what you are talking about into consideration.