Politics

[Polish Leppy 22]

More like, Democrats realize that these 12 million people have already plugged into communities and made millions of American children and the removal of these millions of people from the economy would cause an intentional recession and moral calamity that would take a century to shake off. They probably also realize that these 12 million people pay a shit ton in usage taxes and increase the purchasing power of Americans at the grocery and hardware stores. Probably also realize the one-way subsidy to Social Security and Medicare. And at the end of the day wonder why Conservatives, who have no respect for the federal government's ability to solve problems and craft impactful policy, want to go out of their way to enforce byzantine immigration laws in a manner that doesn't have am economic benefit or is morally justifiable.



Wake me up when it passes. This is a shade away from AM Radio, getting all worked up over a state-level legislative bill that doesn't have much chance in passing.

Yeah, politicians wake up and go to bed every day worried sick about illegal immigrants' well being in our country. Give me a break. This comes down to votes (current and future) and nothing else.

We'll see what the nutjobs in California do next legislatively, but if one state in the country would do it, my next paycheck says California would be the first.

 

[Irish YJ]

The conversation is about Democrats propping up illegal immigrants, you bum.

You implied the illegal numbers dropped, and of course you provided a chart. I supplied charts that implied 1) the numbers per others did not drop, and 2) suggested that some sources may assume a drop because of lack of enforcement and the increase in legal immigration, both which could deflate the older illegal immigration #s.

 

[Irish YJ]

More like, Democrats realize that these 12 million people have already plugged into communities and made millions of American children and the removal of these millions of people from the economy would cause an intentional recession and moral calamity that would take a century to shake off. They probably also realize that these 12 million people pay a shit ton in usage taxes and increase the purchasing power of Americans at the grocery and hardware stores. Probably also realize the one-way subsidy to Social Security and Medicare. And at the end of the day wonder why Conservatives, who have no respect for the federal government's ability to solve problems and craft impactful policy, want to go out of their way to enforce byzantine immigration laws in a manner that doesn't have am economic benefit or is morally justifiable..

That's some funny shit there.

Usage tax... oh how I would love to pay just usage tax.. only I'd be prosecuted for tax evasion as an American citizen...

Byzantine? Meaning full of detail and excessively complicated. The whole F'ing government is Byzantine. The law actually isn't that complicated when it comes to illegal immigration..... It's simply illegal to cross the border illegally.... Cool world though.

The fed has proven time and time again their ability to screw shit up. And it's not just the conservatives who have no faith. I get it, you're a politician, or into politics, so three cheers for all the politicians.... but the average joe regardless of party has low confidence in the government, and rightfully so.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Yeah, politicians wake up and go to bed every day worried sick about illegal immigrants' well being in our country. Give me a break. This comes down to votes (current and future) and nothing else.

Do Republicans oppose sensible immigration reform because of the votes?

We'll see what the nutjobs in California do next legislatively, but if one state in the country would do it, my next paycheck says California would be the first.

Those crazy nutjobs have created the fifth largest economy in the world and arguably the most advanced in the United States.

 

[Buster Bluth]

That's some funny shit there.

Usage tax... oh how I would love to pay just usage tax.. only I'd be prosecuted for tax evasion as an American citizen...

You'd be paying more if they weren't here, and Conservatives love to not account for the billions and billions in sales, gas, etc taxes paid by those 12 million people when they paint a picture that they are leaches on society.

Byzantine? Meaning full of detail and excessively complicated. The whole F'ing government is Byzantine. The law actually isn't that complicated when it comes to illegal immigration..... It's simply illegal to cross the border illegally.... Cool world though.

Yep and if you were half the wise objective nonpartisan thinker you like to present yourself as you'd realize it's crafted in a way that gets illegal labor here yet doesn't provide an easy immigration method so that they live outside the law and have no wage leverage. It's all about money.

If DC wanted to solve the problem, they'd go after companies. When they go after people it's pretty telling that they're just dividing and conquering our ability to negotiate a better wage.

You're not a wise principled observer on immigration, you're a sucker.

The fed has proven time and time again their ability to screw shit up. And it's not just the conservatives who have no faith. I get it, you're a politician, or into politics, so three cheers for all the politicians.... but the average joe regardless of party has low confidence in the government, and rightfully so.

Great so let's ask the government to round up 12 million people and remove them efficiently. Durrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Irish YJ]

You'd be paying more if they weren't here, and Conservatives love to not account for the billions and billions in sales, gas, etc taxes paid by those 12 million people when they paint a picture that they are leaches on society.

Yep and if you were half the wise objective nonpartisan thinker you like to present yourself as you'd realize it's crafted in a way that gets illegal labor here yet doesn't provide an easy immigration method so that they live outside the law and have no wage leverage. It's all about money.

If DC wanted to solve the problem, they'd go after companies. When they go after people it's pretty telling that they're just dividing and conquering our ability to negotiate a better wage.

You're not a wise principled observer on immigration, you're a sucker.

Great so let's ask the government to round up 12 million people and remove them efficiently. Durrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I honestly laugh reading your economic reasoning. I'd love to see your creative math...

BTW, I would love it if they went after businesses more.

So.... no comment on the confidence or lack of in the Fed?

 

[Buster Bluth]

I honestly laugh reading your economic reasoning. I'd love to see your creative math...

Removing the purchasing power of 12 million people, a population equivalent to the 7th largest state in the country, would cause a recession. Surely you're aware that 68% of our GDP comes from people buying products, right?

And that doesn't include the severe labor disruptions as businesses scramble to find Americans willing to work in fields picking fruits and vegetables, or in restaurants washing dishes, etc.

What part of that do you think is "creative math." Seems like simple logic.

BTW, I would love it if they went after businesses more.

So.... no comment on the confidence or lack of in the Fed?

"the Fed" ....you know that's different right?

Do you need a comment on your graph? You know I'm the guy who says the biggest problem in this country is that Congress can't solve any issue without the approval of their corporate, union, or special interest donor daddies...right? Of course I fucking agree that our federal government blows. It operates at the exact shitty level Congress asks it to function. It's by design.

 

[Bluto]

Spare me the "21st century universal healthcare" garbage. No other nation with single payer has our population AND 12-15 million illegal immigrants to care for. You know California can't afford to do it, so you'd like the rest of us to suffer with you. You can keep it out there and live with the consequences.

As to the Dems bribing legal and illegal immigrants...easy. They're trying to establish a permanent majority.

No, I just think access to healthcare is a fundamental right in this day and age. If you think that’s “garbage” that’s your prerogative. From where I sit the rust belt and parts of the northeast are “dealing” with the consequences of not having a comprehensive healthcare system in the form of the opioid epidemic. Junkies wandering around stealing stuff and people in ER’s from OD’s. Sounds like good times. It’s probably all MS-13’s fault.

Ok so the counter argument to the “free stuff” theory you keep offering up would be the GOP consistently pushing racist and xenophobic bullshit. They have a long storied history of doing such things and the current president is the culmination of this. If you think these “bribes” of “free stuff” have more to do with how immigrants and minorities in general tend to eventually vote and or how they views both parties well I would say that’s pretty inaccurate and misguided.

Now, if you want to talk “bribing” that actually has a direct impact on election outcomes maybe we should talk about how our elections are financed.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Do Republicans oppose sensible immigration reform because of the votes?



Those crazy nutjobs have created the fifth largest economy in the world and arguably the most advanced in the United States.

Republicans, as far as I can tell, want legal immigration and oppose open borders. Many on the left are at protests across the country holding signs that read "no more border" and "no more ICE." Makes US citizenship sound like a thing of the past.

As for California, it's funny you always mention the size of their economy but fail to note their debt and unfunded liabilities. It's a beautiful state, the food is outstanding, wineries and breweries all over, huge tech hub, etc. The politicians their citizens elect and the policies that follow are so "advanced" they can't afford it.

 

[Irish YJ]

Removing the purchasing power of 12 million people, a population equivalent to the 7th largest state in the country, would cause a recession. Surely you're aware that 68% of our GDP comes from people buying products, right?

And that doesn't include the severe labor disruptions as businesses scramble to find Americans willing to work in fields picking fruits and vegetables, or in restaurants washing dishes, etc.

What part of that do you think is "creative math." Seems like simple logic.

Like I've said many times, several in the last few days, not many want to see mass deportation (I don't)..... That said, purchasing power and use tax are a small part of the larger economic question. There are a shit ton of pros and cons on the balance sheet, yet your sole focus is on use tax and purchasing... you ignore the impact to wages, communities, medical, education, law enforcement, and the larger tax picture.

You paint puppy dogs and rainbow pictures when it comes to immigration. You talk about the "overall" positive impacts spouted off by some "intellectuals", while ignoring what other "intellectuals" have to say. While most "intellectuals" have never held jobs outside of politics, a university, or think tank, let's just talk about a real world example: Stillmore, Georgia....

Stillmore in the 90s/2000s was a small poor town, predominantly African American in rural GA, and a remnant of the cotton days . It's largest employer was a chicken plant (Crider). They actually employed a number greater than Stillmore's population. 70+% of it's workforce was African American, and things were pretty normal (normal for a rural GA small town of AAs) until the late 90s / early 2000s. Fast forward to the middle 2000s. The workforce over the course of 5 years was transformed to 70+% Latino (majority being illegal). Wages dropped, and working conditions degraded, and dorms were constructed to house the new work force. PROFITS INCREASED. African American unemployment skyrocketed, and many of the town's original inhabitants had to abandon the town to seek employment elsewhere.

In 2006, immigration enforcement raided Crider. Crider was found to have aided in faking green cards, employment docs, etc.. Poof, the workforce is gone. Poof, Stillmore is now a ghost town. The majority of the AA workforce that was pushed out was no longer there... The next weekend, an ad in the paper offering jobs with wages now 15 to 20% higher... Then, the ownership of Crider joined forces with shady "recruiters" who would bus in AAs. The AAs got screwed out of wages paying their % to the recruiters (who were likely kicking back to Crider), and complained about the unsafe working conditions and shitty living conditions in the dorms. Shockingly.... there was high turnover, so the recruiters and ownership started busing in Felons and Homeless. Then, they bus in legal Hmongs all the way from MN....

In short. The timeline is
1) town and plant functioning fine with a majority of AAs. It isn't paradise, but town residents have jobs and homes.
2) illegal population replaces AAs at plant, and AAs abandon town
3) illegals taken advantage of, wages decrease, working conditions degrade, profits rise
4) Raid at Crider
5) Stillmore is a ghost town. Plant raises wages.
6) Plant enters into agreement with recruiters who bus in AAs from surrounding areas. New employees complain that plant and recruiters are screwing them out of wages. Complain about working and living conditions.
7) Plant and recruiters then bus in inmates/felons, homeless, and Hmongs from MN (who won't complain)

So tell me how the original inhabitants of Stillmore benefited from illegal immigration? It's OK though because their purchasing power increased and the gov got all that use tax..., right? But hey, their own personal recession is OK because it benefits Crider and the overall economy, right?

"the Fed" ....you know that's different right?

Do you need a comment on your graph? You know I'm the guy who says the biggest problem in this country is that Congress can't solve any issue without the approval of their corporate, union, or special interest donor daddies...right? Of course I fucking agree that our federal government blows. It operates at the exact shitty level Congress asks it to function. It's by design.

I'm confused, your comment was
"And at the end of the day wonder why Conservatives, who have no respect for the federal government's ability to solve problems and craft impactful policy".

my response was a graph showing the shitty confidence we have in the federal government....

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

No, I just think access to healthcare is a fundamental right in this day and age. If you think that’s “garbage” that’s your prerogative. From where I sit the rust belt and parts of the northeast are “dealing” with the consequences of not having a comprehensive healthcare system in the form of the opioid epidemic. Junkies wandering around stealing stuff and people in ER’s from OD’s. Sounds like good times. It’s probably all MS-13’s fault.

Ok so the counter argument to the “free stuff” theory you keep offering up would be the GOP consistently pushing racist and xenophobic bullshit. They have a long storied history of doing such things and the current president is the culmination of this. If you think these “bribes” of “free stuff” have more to do with how immigrants and minorities in general tend to eventually vote and or how they views both parties well I would say that’s pretty inaccurate and misguided.

Now, if you want to talk “bribing” that actually has a direct impact on election outcomes maybe we should talk about how our elections are financed.

You're joking right? Single payer healthcare wouldn't solve the opioid problem. That's a societal issue, just like school shootings. Everyone has access to healthcare, but it has to be paid for just like anything else.

 

[Irish YJ]

You're joking right? Single payer healthcare wouldn't solve the opioid problem. That's a societal issue, just like school shootings. Everyone has access to healthcare, but it has to be paid for just like anything else.

Are you trying to suggest he the opioid problem might have something to do with society, the doctors who carelessly prescribe it, or the drug makers who churn it out?

I'm actually pro national HC (I'm pretty far left), just not the Obama model. But national HC is absolutely not the answer to the problem. Perhaps a tiny band aide for the damage, but not the answer.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Republicans, as far as I can tell, want legal immigration and oppose open borders. Many on the left are at protests across the country holding signs that read "no more border" and "no more ICE." Makes US citizenship sound like a thing of the past.

I think it's so revealing that you will judge the Left on signs at protests and apparently ignore all of the statements the President has made about reducing the amount of legal immigration and his sloppy rhetoric antagonizing legal refugees.

Again, if Democrats were really all about open borders, one would think that there would have been a flood of illegal immigrants from 2009-2017 when they controlled the White House. That didn't happen.

So maybe those signs were "no border wall," because they consider it a waste of money, and "no more ICE" because they consider their role inhumane.

As for California, it's funny you always mention the size of their economy but fail to note their debt and unfunded liabilities. It's a beautiful state, the food is outstanding, wineries and breweries all over, huge tech hub, etc. The politicians their citizens elect and the policies that follow are so "advanced" they can't afford it.

No you bring it up for me and I continue to point out that when you take the unfunded liabilities and such and compare to their revenue and GDP, it's not even one of the worst in the country. Most states have very noteworthy problems with unfunded liabilities, California is no exception.

 

[Irish YJ]

Buster, crickets about Crider???
Don't be like the other illegal immigrant champions and forget about Stillmore, GA.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Buster, crickets about Crider???
Don't be like the other illegal immigrant champions and forget about Stillmore, GA.

You wrote a very poignant piece on the importance of unions, while at the same time brushing aside any effort to attempt look at the impacts of illegal immigrants on the whole economy and nation. I mean you've got to be kidding me to pull a "hey hold on screw those intellectuals let me tell you about this anecdote"...do you want to talk about that one time illegal immigrants picked vegetables and fruits and how farmers can't find Americans to do the work?

But thank you for brushing us all up on my illegal immigrants happens: it's about wages and big money wants them here.

If you want wages to go up, you'll provide a path to legal residency and increase the penalties and enforcement on companies hiring illegal immigrants.

Because with 7/8 of illegals having been here 5+ years and already plugged into communities, we have three options:

1) mass deportation
2) a path to legal residency
3) the current clusterfuck

Now you've said you don't support #1. So you either support #2 or #3.

I'm confused, your comment was
"And at the end of the day wonder why Conservatives, who have no respect for the federal government's ability to solve problems and craft impactful policy".

my response was a graph showing the shitty confidence we have in the federal government....

"the Fed" != the federal government. Literally just google "the Fed"

 

[Irish YJ]

You wrote a very poignant piece on the importance of unions, while at the same time brushing aside any effort to attempt look at the impacts of illegal immigrants on the whole economy and nation. I mean you've got to be kidding me to pull a "hey hold on screw those intellectuals let me tell you about this anecdote"...do you want to talk about that one time illegal immigrants picked vegetables and fruits and how farmers can't find Americans to do the work?

But thank you for brushing us all up on my illegal immigrants happens: it's about wages and big money wants them here.

If you want wages to go up, you'll provide a path to legal residency and increase the penalties and enforcement on companies hiring illegal immigrants.

Because with 7/8 of illegals having been here 5+ years and already plugged into communities, we have three options:

1) mass deportation
2) a path to legal residency
3) the current clusterfuck

Now you've said you don't support #1. So you either support #2 or #3.

So you just brushed aside the destruction of a town.

That's what's wrong with the pro immigration stance. You want to talk about big pictures, the "overall" positive impacts, etc., while ignoring the impact to actual Americans and communities. It's easy to ignore when widely dispersed, but it's still there. Not so hard to brush off and ignore when it's centralized like Stillmore.

PS... there were no unions before the African Americans were replaced/displaced. Wages didn't drop, and conditions didn't degrade until the displacement (because the illegals couldn't complain). The AAs who came back to fill the jobs after the raids would not put up with the "new" wages and conditions.

I am for a path to legal status. And I am for stiff penalties on business. You still haven't answered the questions I put to you in the immigration thread (which is where this really belongs).

 

[Bluto]

You're joking right? Single payer healthcare wouldn't solve the opioid problem. That's a societal issue, just like school shootings. Everyone has access to healthcare, but it has to be paid for just like anything else.

So drug use and or addiction have nothing to do with healthcare. Interesting. Everyone has access to acute care i.e emergency rooms. If you can’t afford paying for primary care then you would by your own definition not have access to it. Interestingly enough the same can be said for mental health services. But yeah, such things have nothing to do with “societal issues”.

 

[Buster Bluth]

So you just brushed aside the destruction of a town.

That's what's wrong with the pro immigration stance. You want to talk about big pictures, the "overall" positive impacts, etc., while ignoring the impact to actual Americans and communities. It's easy to ignore when widely dispersed, but it's still there. Not so hard to brush off and ignore when it's centralized like Stillmore.

PS... there were no unions before the African Americans were replaced/displaced. Wages didn't drop, and conditions didn't degrade until the displacement (because the illegals couldn't complain). The AAs who came back to fill the jobs after the raids would not put up with the "new" wages and conditions.

I am for a path to legal status. And I am for stiff penalties on business. You still haven't answered the questions I put to you in the immigration thread (which is where this really belongs).

Hey moron, solving the immigration problem prevents stories like that from happening.

I think I've said it a half-dozen times that the reason American immigration is so fucked up is so that corporations can get labor here that must love outside the law so the wages are lower than they'd otherwise be.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

So drug use and or addiction have nothing to do with healthcare. Interesting. Everyone has access to acute care i.e emergency rooms. If you can’t afford paying for primary care then you would by your own definition not have access to it. Interestingly enough the same can be said for mental health services. But yeah, such things have nothing to do with “societal issues”.

A federal program never has and never will cure a societal problem.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Are you trying to suggest he the opioid problem might have something to do with society, the doctors who carelessly prescribe it, or the drug makers who churn it out?

I'm actually pro national HC (I'm pretty far left), just not the Obama model. But national HC is absolutely not the answer to the problem. Perhaps a tiny band aide for the damage, but not the answer.

Here's the crazy part...I don't think the answer to every problem in the US is another federal program.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I think it's so revealing that you will judge the Left on signs at protests and apparently ignore all of the statements the President has made about reducing the amount of legal immigration and his sloppy rhetoric antagonizing legal refugees.

Again, if Democrats were really all about open borders, one would think that there would have been a flood of illegal immigrants from 2009-2017 when they controlled the White House. That didn't happen.

So maybe those signs were "no border wall," because they consider it a waste of money, and "no more ICE" because they consider their role inhumane.



No you bring it up for me and I continue to point out that when you take the unfunded liabilities and such and compare to their revenue and GDP, it's not even one of the worst in the country. Most states have very noteworthy problems with unfunded liabilities, California is no exception.

Again, the Democrats need the border issue to continue. It's a campaign platform. "Let all these people in or you're racist!"

California currently faces $1 trillion in unfunded liabilities (local and state). Try passing this "free healthcare for all illegal immigrants" at $3 billion a year and explaining that to your taxpaying citizens of the state. Good luck.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Again, the Democrats need the border issue to continue. It's a campaign platform. "Let all these people in or you're racist!"

California currently faces $1 trillion in unfunded liabilities (local and state). Try passing this "free healthcare for all illegal immigrants" at $3 billion a year and explaining that to your taxpaying citizens of the state. Good luck.

You'd make a good border wall because discussing issues with you is like talking to a brick wall. You literally just ignored what I said and retyped your position.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You'd make a good border wall because discussing issues with you is like talking to a brick wall. You literally just ignored what I said and retyped your position.

I didn't ignore anything you said and if you don't want to acknowledge California's financial issues, that's your deal. You can have your opinion on the border topic and I'll have mine.

 

[Bluto]

A federal program never has and never will cure a societal problem.

Lol. The Civil Rights act? How about eliminating rivers that caught on fire with the clean water act? Or elminating acid rain? Unlesss of course you think a lack of civil rights and pollution are not societal problems. I got free lunch as a kid at school. That program eliminated the problem of me being hungry everyday at school. Unless of course you think hungry kids at school aren’t a societal problem.

Is immigration enforcement a government program? Sure seems like one to me. If so aren’t you advocating using that program to curtail illegal immigration? Is illegal immigration not a societal problem in your opinion?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Lol. The Civil Rights act? How about eliminating rivers that caught on fire with the clean water act? Or elminating acid rain? Unlesss of course you think a lack of civil rights and pollution are not societal problems. I got free lunch as a kid at school. That program eliminated the problem of me being hungry everyday at school. Unless of course you think hungry kids at school aren’t a societal problem.

Is immigration enforcement a government program? Sure seems like one to me. If so aren’t you advocating using that program to curtail illegal immigration? Is illegal immigration not a societal problem in your opinion?

Nice way to take the train off tracks. I was talking more in line with alcohol, drugs, prostitution, etc. as it relates to people, not acid rain.

No, immigration enforcement isn't a government program. It's the law lol

 

[Irish YJ]

Hey moron, solving the immigration problem prevents stories like that from happening.

I think I've said it a half-dozen times that the reason American immigration is so fucked up is so that corporations can get labor here that must love outside the law so the wages are lower than they'd otherwise be.

Enforcing existing laws (including on businesses), and preventing entry stops it from happening in the first place. You're dance to flip this is hilarious.

I'm still waiting on your answer in the immigration thread....

 

[Bluto]

Nice way to take the train off tracks. I was talking more in line with alcohol, drugs, prostitution, etc. as it relates to people, not acid rain.

No, immigration enforcement isn't a government program. It's the law lol

You made the absurd blank statement that the federal government has solved zero social problems. A simple understanding of US history proves that to be false. Now you are walking it back it would appear and want to focus on specific problems. The problem with that is that “social problems” cannot be easily compartmentalized. Polluted water and air contribute to heath issues. Rising sea levels are starting to drive housing speculation in places like Miami that is causing lower income folks to start to be displaced and on and on.

Enforcement is the application of the law. So yes, enforcement actions would constitute a program or set of programs.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You made the absurd blank statement that the federal government has solved zero social problems. A simple understanding of US history proves that to be false. Now you are walking it back it would appear and want to focus on specific problems. The problem with that is that “social problems” cannot be easily compartmentalized. Polluted water and air contribute to heath issues. Rising sea levels are starting to drive housing speculation in places like Miami that is causing lower income folks to start to be displaced and on and on.

Enforcement is the application of the law. So yes, enforcement actions would constitute a program or set of programs.

I don't think anyone believes that the government has never had any program that was successful or helpful, but let's be honest, their track record isn't anything to brag about either. The programs sometimes do solve some problems and are helpful, but they're usually exceptionally inefficient, often cause more problems than they solve, frequently turn into bottomless pits with no end in sight, and all too often are just a royal CF of ineptitude and waste. It's easy to understand why most citizens have lots of doubts about any government program's ability to get things done right.

 

[NorthDakota]

I don't think anyone believes that the government has never had any program that was successful or helpful, but let's be honest, their track record isn't anything to brag about either. The programs sometimes do solve some problems and are helpful, but they're usually exceptionally inefficient, often cause more problems than they solve, frequently turn into bottomless pits with no end in sight, and all too often are just a royal CF of ineptitude and waste. It's easy to understand why most citizens have lots of doubts about any government program's ability to get things done right.

Yep.

I work for the Air Force/DoD.

The amount of waste (both real $$$ and productivity ) is insane. We had... in my office...3 separate Christmas parties. Each of which started at 11 am, which we all know means nothing got done those days. That's three full days gone. Usually once or twice a month, we have events (cookouts on the beach usually) that also are pretty much full day events.

During our performance reviews, they give out bonus vacation time like candy. I got a full week awarded to me when I still didn't have computer access (took over 4 months).

Some folks want to create MORE government agencies to handle their problems? Lmaooooo wut

 

[Buster Bluth]

Enforcing existing laws (including on businesses), and preventing entry stops it from happening in the first place. You're dance to flip this is hilarious.

I'm still waiting on your answer in the immigration thread....

These people are already here. That's what we're discussing. Christ almighty.